BELFAST (BHD) - 3
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Most European operators have equipment more than capable of operating into BHD. If they are not coming there is another reason for it. The extension has always been about RYR and the fact it only uses -800's. I would hardly call the 195 irrelevent - it is a very common sight across europe these days and about right for a 'city' airport too. BHD should stop trying to be something it isn't and instead concentrate on its strengths - it has the upper hand at the minute because BFS is a mess.
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Whats the fixation on here with 737-800, other versions area available and are used,500/600 etc and there are A318 operators in Europe, not to mention FlyBE and the Dash 8 from IOM-MAH etc.
No I think previous posters have hit the nail on the head, the real reason I would suggest is that operators just dont want to expand into europe not that they dont have the right runway or a/c type.
If we take a less BHD/BFS focused look at it, Ireland as an Island nation can at best probably sustain a select few route that will be profitable from both DUB and BHD/BFS, but i would suggest that very very few would sustain operations from DUB/BFS or DUB/BHD, in deed as has been shown in ROI, CZECH and Malev both pulled the ORK routes as they said they could not make ORK and DUB work.
Air Baltic fro example to RIX and VNO from Belfast maintain nearly 30% of there pax are from the North.
I think in the short term we just have to support what routes and operators we have and just let others huff and puff and realise that they cant get what they want all the time. Maybe daddy might take them too Runways r Us and buy him a new runway to play with.
No I think previous posters have hit the nail on the head, the real reason I would suggest is that operators just dont want to expand into europe not that they dont have the right runway or a/c type.
If we take a less BHD/BFS focused look at it, Ireland as an Island nation can at best probably sustain a select few route that will be profitable from both DUB and BHD/BFS, but i would suggest that very very few would sustain operations from DUB/BFS or DUB/BHD, in deed as has been shown in ROI, CZECH and Malev both pulled the ORK routes as they said they could not make ORK and DUB work.
Air Baltic fro example to RIX and VNO from Belfast maintain nearly 30% of there pax are from the North.
I think in the short term we just have to support what routes and operators we have and just let others huff and puff and realise that they cant get what they want all the time. Maybe daddy might take them too Runways r Us and buy him a new runway to play with.
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Have to agree with other's here in that I really do not see the need for a runway extension. Ok yes with the current runway length your not going to get to Greece, but for the routes that are been talked about i.e France, Germany the runway length is fine for most aircraft. Ok maybe not a FULL 737-800. At the end of the day Mr O'L isn't going to pay for it so no doubt this cost will get passed on to the other airline (MOL will just threaten to leave if asked to pay more so the airport will bend over backwards to keep him) which will in turn be passed on to the passenger.
I think the main reason they have not started these routes out of BHD is because there is not the market in NI. Its not like London which can support multiple airports/airlines on the same routes. Flybe could if it really saw a market for it, have started these routes by now. The fact that they haven't should make you wonder why. The runway length is not an issue with the E195 and works very nicely for our ski and summer charters. Also BD come in every now and again with their A321 (not to sure if it is pax restricted??)
Is it really worth bending over backwards to get a longer runway just so FR can add a couple of European routes which will probably get cut over the winter due to the lack of demand. Then all we are left with is a big bill. Look at how EI struggled at BFS when competing with EZ for passengers. The market in NI is just not big enough for multiple European routes from multiple airports.
Look at how BOH has been getting mucked around by FR and the problems it is now facing in trying to pay for its nice new terminal over the winter with no other airlines to fill the gap after becoming too reliant on FR. Yes BHD is no where near the same level of reliance, but it just shows you what can happen if you get too close to FR.
BHD should stick to been a small city airport and stop trying to become an 'international'.
More airports need to take MAN lead and set a price, and if FR don't like it so be it. BHD was around long before FR arrived, and will not collapse if FR decide to leave.
I think the main reason they have not started these routes out of BHD is because there is not the market in NI. Its not like London which can support multiple airports/airlines on the same routes. Flybe could if it really saw a market for it, have started these routes by now. The fact that they haven't should make you wonder why. The runway length is not an issue with the E195 and works very nicely for our ski and summer charters. Also BD come in every now and again with their A321 (not to sure if it is pax restricted??)
Is it really worth bending over backwards to get a longer runway just so FR can add a couple of European routes which will probably get cut over the winter due to the lack of demand. Then all we are left with is a big bill. Look at how EI struggled at BFS when competing with EZ for passengers. The market in NI is just not big enough for multiple European routes from multiple airports.
Look at how BOH has been getting mucked around by FR and the problems it is now facing in trying to pay for its nice new terminal over the winter with no other airlines to fill the gap after becoming too reliant on FR. Yes BHD is no where near the same level of reliance, but it just shows you what can happen if you get too close to FR.
BHD should stick to been a small city airport and stop trying to become an 'international'.
More airports need to take MAN lead and set a price, and if FR don't like it so be it. BHD was around long before FR arrived, and will not collapse if FR decide to leave.
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apologies late response just moving domains and taken a while for internet to get up and running but your reading correctly BHD rwy wouldnt allow a profitable operation on a B738. As for gaurantee's well there is none and speaking to a few around it is believed the FR base at BHD will shut but the routes will continue to operate from non based aircraft operating inn.
Regards
Regards
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My own feeling is that the runway extension will not get the go ahead (meaning FR will go) but the passenger cap will be lifted. As a previous poster said, BHD will survive without FR.
Re the ORK route, presumably BHD are trying to get a replacement for RE when they depart at the end of the month. I heard from an relatively unreliable source that Cityjet might be interested. Is this likely or complete nonsense?
Re the ORK route, presumably BHD are trying to get a replacement for RE when they depart at the end of the month. I heard from an relatively unreliable source that Cityjet might be interested. Is this likely or complete nonsense?
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EGAC RAMPER Thanks for your reply.
ALLMCC
and quite right too. It is ideally suited as a small city airport and really should not be attempting to punch above its weight. As for your forecasts.......I am glad you don't tip horses
ALLMCC
BHD will survive without FR
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BHD will survive without FR
However, simply cannot see FR axing Belfast City for a few reasons;
1. It was set up super quick in response to EI looking at BFS base
2. FR would not withdraw and leave the business to the competition, after all they are carrying serious numbers on most of the routes, ie STN. Besides axing STN would be making it a little easier for EI/EZY.
3. They have steadily gained good share of the market on EMA STN BRS LPL. PIK seems to compete more with the boat?
If Ryanair are ready to do battle with BHD management over fees/charges or runway extention BHD need to stand firm and realise the benefits that FR have here and bear in mind that it is unlikely that a deal would be done better with the international airport, as I am sure that EI would sought assurances that FR were not being enticed in when they were negotiating.
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I would hardly call the 195 irrelevent - it is a very common sight across europe these days and about right for a 'city' airport too.
If that rumour turns out to be true, shows how committed to BHD FR is then.....
Then all we are left with is a big bill.
I think everyone forgets that the airport is as keen on the extension as FR. Ryanair is constantly the focus when we talk about the runway. The airport has no gun to its head.
Also existing jobs at the airport will be very secure and new ones created which anyone working on the ground will agree is a big plus.
FR would not withdraw and leave the business to the competition, after all they are carrying serious numbers on most of the routes, ie STN. Besides axing STN would be making it a little easier for EI/EZY.
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I think everyone forgets that the airport is as keen on the extension as FR. Ryanair is constantly the focus when we talk about the runway. The airport has no gun to its head.
Like many previous posters have stated, and myself, besides FR, what other airlines want this extension (not FlyBE nor bmi), and again what other airlines are lined up to use should the extension be granted?? Many, many airlines if they so wanted, or felt the demand was they, could already operate to Europe from BHD as displayed by BE, BD, FQ and EN.
The owners of BCA are paying so where is the big bill you talk of?
It is irrelevant when we are talking about performance restrictions.
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q1W2e3R4t5
As BFS101 has said BCA will pass on these costs to the rest of the airlines using the airport and to the passengers. BCA will not be paying for the new runway extension from their own bank account so to say. Hence someone else [insert other airlines + pax's] will be picking up the bill.
If BHD based their contract with FR on the back of a runway extension happening, then that was a bit silly on their behalf.
Flybe have been at BHD since 1993 so 3 years is not exactly a long time, but I will agree with you, FR could have thrown their toys out the pram long ago and left.
As BFS101 has said BCA will pass on these costs to the rest of the airlines using the airport and to the passengers. BCA will not be paying for the new runway extension from their own bank account so to say. Hence someone else [insert other airlines + pax's] will be picking up the bill.
If BHD based their contract with FR on the back of a runway extension happening, then that was a bit silly on their behalf.
Flybe have been at BHD since 1993 so 3 years is not exactly a long time, but I will agree with you, FR could have thrown their toys out the pram long ago and left.
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But surely the airport are only so keen to get the extension, so that FR can offer European services. If Ryanair were not operating at the city would the airport still be so keen to spend the millions required for the extension??? In my eyes, while the airport management would like a longer runway, it's all down to the potential FR operation at the minute
I agree. The airport is not simply laying tarmac because Ryanair told them to. The airport had plans and needed a customer like Ryanair to make them happen. Why can everyone not see this. In the airports eyes Flybe and BMI are no longer the future for them. FR stepped in and made their ideas possible. Now that easy has arrived well thats just even better for them to have a potential reserve should FR leave.
As BFS101 has said BCA will pass on these costs to the rest of the airlines using the airport and to the passengers
unless your talking about BFS who up until recently said ' lets give the passengers that rundown 70's airport feel but keep our customers fees set in the future'
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The fact remains that the runway extension is being sold on the exciting new destinations Ryanair will bring. There is no extension and I believe the enquiry will take at least a year to commence. There are consequently no destinations from RYR on the forseeable horizon.
Taking into account Ryanair will have made the BHD managements pips squeak when they signed the contract what is left for either party?Ryanair will leave(if their 737-800's can make it
) for pastures new and BHD will be left with an alienated local population and be back to square one.
I would not be surprised to see Ryanair approach BFS.
Taking into account Ryanair will have made the BHD managements pips squeak when they signed the contract what is left for either party?Ryanair will leave(if their 737-800's can make it
) for pastures new and BHD will be left with an alienated local population and be back to square one.I would not be surprised to see Ryanair approach BFS.
Last edited by eastern wiseguy; 10th Aug 2010 at 10:33. Reason: spelling
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yes and if it wasn't Ryanair then if A2B Airlines were to open for business it would be them.
And should Ryanair leave whos at fault then? The usual suspects will then blame them for leaving and the the job losses and the pax numbers dropping and not getting to sunny beaches direct from the city.
If they open for business in BFS then BCA will get to see what they could have been.
BHD will be left with an alienated local population and be back to square one.
And should Ryanair leave whos at fault then? The usual suspects will then blame them for leaving and the the job losses and the pax numbers dropping and not getting to sunny beaches direct from the city.
If they open for business in BFS then BCA will get to see what they could have been.
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BFS and BHD are not the same type of airport, so BHD can't expect to achieve what BFS has. Due to location BHD is curfewed, will not handle wide bodies, will not have a large cargo operation and no late night charters. Therefore I think the comment
is pretty misguided. They may see a FR operation that BHD management will feel they missed out on, but as mentioned before BHD should focus on their strengths, rather than try and emulate Aldergrove.
Progress to me, at a city centre airport especially at BHD should not rest with a longer runway to serve, as you put it "sunny beaches". Progress can be better facilities, more user friendly, growing more business orientated routes, with aircraft to match, within the passenger cap of course.
Credit where credit is due, BHD is now an excellent facility and a joy to use. But at an airport that is capacity restricted, progress in my eyes would be to continue to offer a dense domestic network, business orientated European destinations and continue to offer an excellent terminal experience, up to their passenger cap. Not to have the ambience and ease of use, ruined by hoards of "new" passengers, potentially jetting of to Costa Del wherever, or hen do's off to Paris (Beauvais), etc. Progress in my eyes in not simply based on huge passenger explosion based on Ryanair, a longer runway and subsequent removal of the passenger cap.
If they (FR) open for business in BFS then BCA will get to see what they could have been.
Thats called progress, otherwise we would still be leaving the city from a Yellow and grey metal shed, flying in a Jersery European metal shed with wings. What airport management has ever said ' lets give the passengers a modern airport but keep our customers fees in the 70's'
Credit where credit is due, BHD is now an excellent facility and a joy to use. But at an airport that is capacity restricted, progress in my eyes would be to continue to offer a dense domestic network, business orientated European destinations and continue to offer an excellent terminal experience, up to their passenger cap. Not to have the ambience and ease of use, ruined by hoards of "new" passengers, potentially jetting of to Costa Del wherever, or hen do's off to Paris (Beauvais), etc. Progress in my eyes in not simply based on huge passenger explosion based on Ryanair, a longer runway and subsequent removal of the passenger cap.
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A dispute over noise pollution reports is set to delay a public inquiry into a controversial £8 million plan to extend the runway at George Best Belfast City Airport, it has been revealed.
The independent Planning Appeals Commission (PAC), which was commissioned by the Stormont government in March to undertake the probe, is refusing to schedule it until it receives further information from the airport........
.........Earlier this year Environment Minister Edwin Poots set up the public inquiry to examine the contentious issue. Airport bosses have warned that further delays over the decision may risk major investments planned by international airlines.
From the Tele today
So Emirates, SN Brussels, Air France, SAS, Air Canada, Virgin and Singapore Airlines refuse to fly to NI unless they use BHD. Is this the real reason that there are no flights to Florida or Canada.
The independent Planning Appeals Commission (PAC), which was commissioned by the Stormont government in March to undertake the probe, is refusing to schedule it until it receives further information from the airport........
.........Earlier this year Environment Minister Edwin Poots set up the public inquiry to examine the contentious issue. Airport bosses have warned that further delays over the decision may risk major investments planned by international airlines.
From the Tele today
So Emirates, SN Brussels, Air France, SAS, Air Canada, Virgin and Singapore Airlines refuse to fly to NI unless they use BHD. Is this the real reason that there are no flights to Florida or Canada.
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The chances of there ever being a runway extension at BHD are now slimmer than ever. Will it be delayed into next year? How long will the hearing last? Will the assembly elections next year have an impact on any potential decision? It could easily be the end of 2012 before the new runway is completed.
The loss of the Cork service, the planned reduction in the LHR to 5 daily this winter, both high revenue routes, will further add to their troubles. They will need a lot of FR pax to replace these loses. It must be getting harder to continue convincing the owners that BHD was a good buy.
The loss of the Cork service, the planned reduction in the LHR to 5 daily this winter, both high revenue routes, will further add to their troubles. They will need a lot of FR pax to replace these loses. It must be getting harder to continue convincing the owners that BHD was a good buy.
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Agree whole heartedly BFS 101 but would also like to come at the runway extension from a non aviation approach.
The owners of BHD are motivated to increase the value of their purchase. The 'fund managers' employed are paid a percentage based on the 'asset value' of the fund. More profits makes the asset more valuable and hence lucrative to their bonus pool. Lengthen the runway and low and behold the asset value can be massaged mightily upwards in their favour with a nice earner all round from the increase in value. The 'sweating' of airport infrastructure is big business at the moment and these funds know how to charge/profiteer.
Those involved don't give a flying fook about the performance of a 737-800, nor the length of FR's involvement at BHD. They see FR as a route to increasing their personal wealth short term. They make good bedfellows - almost deserving of each other. The fact they both want to ride rough shod over the local community and have a tame management team at BHD to happily peddle their spin is sad.
Anybody prepared to put up with Ryanair's shenanigans when travelling should not have a problem with the additional 30 minute journey to a suitable airport.
The beauty of BHD is the location but it came to the owners with the penalty of a passenger cap, time constraints and a community on its door step.
The owners are carpetbaggers who knew what they bought into. I think they have been found out and nowhere in this thread can I find a rationale for the runway extension other than the airport owners and its minions financial benefit.
The owners of BHD are motivated to increase the value of their purchase. The 'fund managers' employed are paid a percentage based on the 'asset value' of the fund. More profits makes the asset more valuable and hence lucrative to their bonus pool. Lengthen the runway and low and behold the asset value can be massaged mightily upwards in their favour with a nice earner all round from the increase in value. The 'sweating' of airport infrastructure is big business at the moment and these funds know how to charge/profiteer.
Those involved don't give a flying fook about the performance of a 737-800, nor the length of FR's involvement at BHD. They see FR as a route to increasing their personal wealth short term. They make good bedfellows - almost deserving of each other. The fact they both want to ride rough shod over the local community and have a tame management team at BHD to happily peddle their spin is sad.
Anybody prepared to put up with Ryanair's shenanigans when travelling should not have a problem with the additional 30 minute journey to a suitable airport.
The beauty of BHD is the location but it came to the owners with the penalty of a passenger cap, time constraints and a community on its door step.
The owners are carpetbaggers who knew what they bought into. I think they have been found out and nowhere in this thread can I find a rationale for the runway extension other than the airport owners and its minions financial benefit.
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BFS and BHD are not the same type of airport, so BHD can't expect to achieve what BFS has. Due to location BHD is curfewed, will not handle wide bodies, will not have a large cargo operation and no late night charters.
Since when has FR been wide body, handled cargo and needed to do late night charter. This has nothing to do with FR moving base.
Progress can be better facilities, more user friendly, growing more business orientated routes
When I say
If they open for business in BFS then BCA will get to see what they could have been.
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Think it is you who is misguided.
If you buy a small shop with limited access you cannot get upset that the big supermarket can do things you cannot.
In airport terms if the owners of BHD wanted a 24/7 operation, FR and increased passenger numbers they should have bought a different airport. They didn't and should abide by the rules without their poodles/management bleating on about the non existent benefits to Norn Iron plc of increased FR operations.
Think it is you who is misguided.
If you buy a small shop with limited access you cannot get upset that the big supermarket can do things you cannot.
In airport terms if the owners of BHD wanted a 24/7 operation, FR and increased passenger numbers they should have bought a different airport. They didn't and should abide by the rules without their poodles/management bleating on about the non existent benefits to Norn Iron plc of increased FR operations.