Flybe/Bacon - 4
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Has happened for many years ,when I was in business travel 50% or so of non London domestic flight cancelled by most airlines and that is`nt just in the UK that happens
Ian Brooks
Ian Brooks
Join Date: Jun 2004
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J-Man,
Mad Rich and Max Reheat have summed up exactly what I was trying to say in the first instance, only better than I put it together! What really frustrates me, having read the new posts, is that you still don't seem to grasp basic customer service.... and it is that, basic!!
I'll give you an example, I have just warned off approx 10 people about the service. Those 10 people will tell 10 people more and so on and so forth. That will continue until the product is not respected by the potential customer. It goes back to my original point about the minimal cost involved in retaining customer base rather than the very expensive nature of attracting new ones...!
Are you starting to get what we're trying to say rather than defend the undefendable???
EGCJ
Mad Rich and Max Reheat have summed up exactly what I was trying to say in the first instance, only better than I put it together! What really frustrates me, having read the new posts, is that you still don't seem to grasp basic customer service.... and it is that, basic!!
I'll give you an example, I have just warned off approx 10 people about the service. Those 10 people will tell 10 people more and so on and so forth. That will continue until the product is not respected by the potential customer. It goes back to my original point about the minimal cost involved in retaining customer base rather than the very expensive nature of attracting new ones...!
Are you starting to get what we're trying to say rather than defend the undefendable???
EGCJ
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Can any SLF please relate your experience flyng FLYBE from BHX? We don't see what it's like out of the a/c and we try our best on board. I've noticed a decline in our german loads, some going with single-figure loads (some are also v.good though). I wonder how Lufthansa's loads are looking?
The frustration onboard at not being able to provide the service that we used to (BaCon) is very real.
Customer service is about the whole experience, from check-in to baggage reclaim. Blaming delays on airport authorities, handling agents etc etc is no good as the customer has a Flybe ticket
not a swissport or MAG/BIA Ltd ticket.
Flybe has grown massively in a short space of time, and there are huge growing pains. Will they be sorted? Not sure, time will tell.
The frustration onboard at not being able to provide the service that we used to (BaCon) is very real.
Customer service is about the whole experience, from check-in to baggage reclaim. Blaming delays on airport authorities, handling agents etc etc is no good as the customer has a Flybe ticket
not a swissport or MAG/BIA Ltd ticket.Flybe has grown massively in a short space of time, and there are huge growing pains. Will they be sorted? Not sure, time will tell.
I think the new BHD CWL CDG service on the 145 is going rather well. Good old G-EMBN has been doing us proud with virtually no delays all week. Apart from the odd stray bag, handling in CWL BHD and CDG (T1) has been faultless.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I'm sure all the services will improve once all the belly-aching, don't-want-to-be-here ex-BACON crews finally clear out of the system, and take thier heel-dragging, unhelpful bad attitudes with them. Almost impossible to run a half decent service when so many on the inside (BHX in particular) wish to see it all come to harm.
Those who have chosen to stay, are more than welcome and have been a pleasure to meet.
Those who have chosen to stay, are more than welcome and have been a pleasure to meet.
Join Date: Mar 2007
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MC,
be assured, there are many of us with offers elsewhere (now in post or holding) who have been operating professionally every day, just as prior to March 25th. We have been frustrated by over-stretch, incompetence and lack of regard for employee "assetts". We can all tell tales that defy belief, but we ironed out the wrinkles, kept it all safe and within the rules and got on with it. We wanted Flybe to succeed because many of our fellow crew members are reliant on that success.
Flybe has taken on a huge challenge. By taking the "signing off" on the "acquisition" to the wire in order to beat their new staff down to the poorest possible t's & c's they have cost themselves dearly in terms of planning time and staff retention. Many of us would have loved to stay, but the conditions of employment, operational standards and management style that you find to be acceptable is not acceptable to many of us.
A shame really, as prior to the Cheesy-Wattsit roadshow many would have been onboard. Those guys really have cost your bottom line dear.
Good luck.
be assured, there are many of us with offers elsewhere (now in post or holding) who have been operating professionally every day, just as prior to March 25th. We have been frustrated by over-stretch, incompetence and lack of regard for employee "assetts". We can all tell tales that defy belief, but we ironed out the wrinkles, kept it all safe and within the rules and got on with it. We wanted Flybe to succeed because many of our fellow crew members are reliant on that success.
Flybe has taken on a huge challenge. By taking the "signing off" on the "acquisition" to the wire in order to beat their new staff down to the poorest possible t's & c's they have cost themselves dearly in terms of planning time and staff retention. Many of us would have loved to stay, but the conditions of employment, operational standards and management style that you find to be acceptable is not acceptable to many of us.
A shame really, as prior to the Cheesy-Wattsit roadshow many would have been onboard. Those guys really have cost your bottom line dear.
Good luck.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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MC - I'm sorry you feel that way about us. I do admit with so many iminant departures there is a bit of an "end of term" feel around the crew rooms these days. If that's rubbed you up the wrong way I'm sorry. But please remember a lot of us have worked together for a long time and now we're all going our seperate ways. A bit of extra "catching up" is inevitable. Please don't see that as foot dragging or lack of professionalism. I appreciate it may be irritating to keep hearing "How long have you got left ?". BUT don't let that make you believe we are trying to bring down Fly Be on the way out of the door. I think the change over to black and gold in June will help ease the divide.
Try not to become hell bent on blaming everything that is wrong with the current Fly Be operation on anything and anyone ex-BACON. That is exactly what the management want. Divide and rule ! Keep the two workforces at odds with each other and get through whatever you want in decline of Ts & Cs - and blame the expensive, prima dona ex BA type people for all the ills of the world.
There is frustration within the x-BACON ranks but this is not because we think we are any better than anyone who has worked for Fly Be for years but because just coming to work these days seems to involve running battles with everyone to achieve any kind of service. I've just finished a 6 day week of long 4 sector days. BUT every day I worked I did my absolute best to provide the best service I could for Fly Be and my passengers - and that went for the rest of the crew as well. The only heel dragging I've whitnessed is the speed at which passengers appear at the side of the aircraft and that isn't my fault or any of the crews !
Unlike some x-bacon I don't hold anyone at Fly Be responsible for anything. Our personal situation is entirely the fault of BA. I'm off to pastures new, which I know won't be any greener (just better paid!), but I do wish Fly Be every success and hope their move works out for them cos lots of my former colleagues are relying on it.
Good luck to everyone whever you're heading.
Try not to become hell bent on blaming everything that is wrong with the current Fly Be operation on anything and anyone ex-BACON. That is exactly what the management want. Divide and rule ! Keep the two workforces at odds with each other and get through whatever you want in decline of Ts & Cs - and blame the expensive, prima dona ex BA type people for all the ills of the world.
There is frustration within the x-BACON ranks but this is not because we think we are any better than anyone who has worked for Fly Be for years but because just coming to work these days seems to involve running battles with everyone to achieve any kind of service. I've just finished a 6 day week of long 4 sector days. BUT every day I worked I did my absolute best to provide the best service I could for Fly Be and my passengers - and that went for the rest of the crew as well. The only heel dragging I've whitnessed is the speed at which passengers appear at the side of the aircraft and that isn't my fault or any of the crews !
Unlike some x-bacon I don't hold anyone at Fly Be responsible for anything. Our personal situation is entirely the fault of BA. I'm off to pastures new, which I know won't be any greener (just better paid!), but I do wish Fly Be every success and hope their move works out for them cos lots of my former colleagues are relying on it.
Good luck to everyone whever you're heading.
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Entirely second what Easywannabe and cheekyvisual have said. I have not once tried to bring down Flybe and know of no other crew that want to see the demise of Flybe.
Of course there is belly-aching by the ex-BaCon crews and I'm surprised that I haven't heard more by Flybe crews. I cannot think of a single day since the 25th of March where I have operated a sector without some sort of problem or lateness. Not a single one. However, that belly-aching is the result of the frustration felt, as providing a good service is not easy at the moment. It is not directed at pre merger Flybe crews or for the wish of the demise of the company.
As EW said, prior to the cheesy-wattsit roadshow and perhaps more importantly JFs letter, less people were actively seeking/leaving. To my ears there has not been a single word said from management in appreciation of our collective flexibility, hard-working and endurance of the disruption and chaos we have lived with in the last 6 weeks. And MC that applies to all members of staff.
Good luck to all.
Of course there is belly-aching by the ex-BaCon crews and I'm surprised that I haven't heard more by Flybe crews. I cannot think of a single day since the 25th of March where I have operated a sector without some sort of problem or lateness. Not a single one. However, that belly-aching is the result of the frustration felt, as providing a good service is not easy at the moment. It is not directed at pre merger Flybe crews or for the wish of the demise of the company.
As EW said, prior to the cheesy-wattsit roadshow and perhaps more importantly JFs letter, less people were actively seeking/leaving. To my ears there has not been a single word said from management in appreciation of our collective flexibility, hard-working and endurance of the disruption and chaos we have lived with in the last 6 weeks. And MC that applies to all members of staff.
Good luck to all.
Join Date: Aug 2006
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I write as a passenger that enjoyed immensley the availability of the BACon flight out of BHX which meant I could avoid Heathrow. Subsequently I spoke to the BA staff at BHX prior to the Flybe take over and realised without doubt there was an unhappiness about the whole issue.
I am dissapointed that Flybe have already rescheduled the flight times to and from Milan. They could have at least waited until the BA customers got used to Flybe. I for one will not be utilsing this service until they have larger aircraft for that particular trip due to the increase in passenger loads. Having to pay to choose a seat is more common on low cost carriers and I do not class almost £500 for a return flight to Italy as low cost.
The BHX/Milan flight has always been mostly business passengers in my opinion therefore Flybe should realise that most passengers will not know that they need the service months in advance to obtain a lower price ticket. It is not me that has to pay for the air fare however I see this as taking the piss and can predict that Flybe will lose the custom. I am sure they have planned this anyway and will use it as an excuse to stop the service.
One thing I will not miss is the sneaky B*****D that stole two of my phones last year from my bag on the Valet Service (bottom of the steps to the hold). A service I doubt Flybe offer thinking about it.
I am dissapointed that Flybe have already rescheduled the flight times to and from Milan. They could have at least waited until the BA customers got used to Flybe. I for one will not be utilsing this service until they have larger aircraft for that particular trip due to the increase in passenger loads. Having to pay to choose a seat is more common on low cost carriers and I do not class almost £500 for a return flight to Italy as low cost.
The BHX/Milan flight has always been mostly business passengers in my opinion therefore Flybe should realise that most passengers will not know that they need the service months in advance to obtain a lower price ticket. It is not me that has to pay for the air fare however I see this as taking the piss and can predict that Flybe will lose the custom. I am sure they have planned this anyway and will use it as an excuse to stop the service.
One thing I will not miss is the sneaky B*****D that stole two of my phones last year from my bag on the Valet Service (bottom of the steps to the hold). A service I doubt Flybe offer thinking about it.
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Flybe-BHX to MXP
Flybe know what they are doing on MXP. BA Connect lost nearly a couple of million on this route. Empty planes lead only to routes being cancelled. My understanding is they've turned it round to breakeven in first month. Flybe are very committed to MXP and will shift the service to the E195 (118 seat, 2X2 seating) within the year. Flybe are the only loco to do lounges et al, so it could be worse.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Flybe at BHX
I have not flown flybe since December but I and others have been monitoring their pax and performance at BHX.
I thought they would get slaughtered where there is competition on the ex BA routes but in fact it seems that this has not been the case. Load factors seem to holding up on the Scottish services if not improved and Baby although doing okay have not wiped the floor with them.
Performance had got better although I noticed earlier today it has started to creak again but even as one of their critics I assume that this will be sorted in a few months (before too many passengers go elsewhere).
As for Milan in the future, it is simple, the 195 or nothing and although I can't dispute the loss in money stated by "uncovered", I have to ask what is meant by an "empty aircraft"?
I monitor the BHX CAA stats every month and since BACON was founded
I believe the Milan has only averaged under 30 pax per flight twice and often nearer 40 on a 49 seat Embraer. Possibly still a heavy loss due BA overheads but not empty planes. The night-stopper was cancelled a while back and that was a poor performer pax wise but not the two day-time flights.
I also remember flybe operating Bergamo with 85-95% load factors one summer and it never came back. Hopefully they will stick with Milan, Frankfurt, Stuttgart and don't even get me started about Lyon!
Pete
I thought they would get slaughtered where there is competition on the ex BA routes but in fact it seems that this has not been the case. Load factors seem to holding up on the Scottish services if not improved and Baby although doing okay have not wiped the floor with them.
Performance had got better although I noticed earlier today it has started to creak again but even as one of their critics I assume that this will be sorted in a few months (before too many passengers go elsewhere).
As for Milan in the future, it is simple, the 195 or nothing and although I can't dispute the loss in money stated by "uncovered", I have to ask what is meant by an "empty aircraft"?
I monitor the BHX CAA stats every month and since BACON was founded
I believe the Milan has only averaged under 30 pax per flight twice and often nearer 40 on a 49 seat Embraer. Possibly still a heavy loss due BA overheads but not empty planes. The night-stopper was cancelled a while back and that was a poor performer pax wise but not the two day-time flights.
I also remember flybe operating Bergamo with 85-95% load factors one summer and it never came back. Hopefully they will stick with Milan, Frankfurt, Stuttgart and don't even get me started about Lyon!
Pete
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Bhx-mxp
Sorry I could not resist but if "uncovered" figures are close then it is obvious to see that BACON never had a chance: -
Month/ pax/Rotations/Avg pax/ Load Factor
April 2006 3583/ 100/ 36/ 73%
May 2006 4096/ 108/ 38/ 77%
June 2006 3786/ 103/ 37/ 75%
July 2006 4053/ 103/ 39/ 80%
Aug 2006 3498/ 107/ 33/ 67%
Sep 2006 3857/ 100/ 39/ 77%
Oct 2006 3238/ 106/ 31/ 62%
Nov 2006 2720/ 103/ 26/ 54%
Dec 2006 2375/ 77/ 31/ 63%
Jan 2007 2616/ 90/ 29/ 59%
Feb 2007 2652/ 77/ 35/ 71%
Mar 2007 3465/ 106/* 33/ 68%
All rounded up after .5 and the rotations are from the CAA Punctuality Stats but March 2007 is a guess on my part as the figures are not out.
Although there is a general decrease, February and March are not too bad. The cheapest fare on the route was about £90 I think and to turn in such a loss (if correct) just speaks volumes.
Even I am convinced that flybe can make this route pay!
I hope this is readable the preview looked awful but it is month followed by pax followed by pax per flight followed by load factor.
Pete
Month/ pax/Rotations/Avg pax/ Load Factor
April 2006 3583/ 100/ 36/ 73%
May 2006 4096/ 108/ 38/ 77%
June 2006 3786/ 103/ 37/ 75%
July 2006 4053/ 103/ 39/ 80%
Aug 2006 3498/ 107/ 33/ 67%
Sep 2006 3857/ 100/ 39/ 77%
Oct 2006 3238/ 106/ 31/ 62%
Nov 2006 2720/ 103/ 26/ 54%
Dec 2006 2375/ 77/ 31/ 63%
Jan 2007 2616/ 90/ 29/ 59%
Feb 2007 2652/ 77/ 35/ 71%
Mar 2007 3465/ 106/* 33/ 68%
All rounded up after .5 and the rotations are from the CAA Punctuality Stats but March 2007 is a guess on my part as the figures are not out.
Although there is a general decrease, February and March are not too bad. The cheapest fare on the route was about £90 I think and to turn in such a loss (if correct) just speaks volumes.
Even I am convinced that flybe can make this route pay!
I hope this is readable the preview looked awful but it is month followed by pax followed by pax per flight followed by load factor.
Pete
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MXP was always a busy business route, with some liesure traffic generally good loads under BA Connect. But since Flybe loads appear to be lower however more leisure pax. Business pax have been quite vocal that they are not happy and prices are higher than ever, but no direct alternative from BHX.
On FRA and STR I think the business traveller has elected for Lufthansa as loads appear to be getting thin on these routes. One pax claimed he had paid £850 for a last minute STR-BHX and was not happy about it at all, I dont think anyone would be at that price! Another for Luftie im guessing.
On FRA and STR I think the business traveller has elected for Lufthansa as loads appear to be getting thin on these routes. One pax claimed he had paid £850 for a last minute STR-BHX and was not happy about it at all, I dont think anyone would be at that price! Another for Luftie im guessing.
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Flybe are very committed to MXP and will shift the service to the E195 (118 seat, 2X2 seating) within the year.
Did MXP the other day with only a couple of spare seats - and we were on time
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Bhx-mxp
Cheesycol
Interesting if they are thinking of putting the Q400 on the MXP, as a SLF & wimp I would not enjoy flying back through summer CB's at 25000
However I really enjoyed my only trip on the Q400 (in winter showers)
but it was only to EDI.
With MXP, HAJ, HAM and STR there is no alternative at BHX and I have
noticed to small extent that LH loads on Dusseldorf have increased (can't say about FRA). Also since April, Air France CDG flights have been rammed except for Bank Holidays but again I think that this is more due to the reduction in the number of seats in the market at BHX.
I just hope flybe give these routes a chance even it has to be the Q400 on some of the longer routes.
Is there any update on introducing more Q400's into service, I think there are now 31 with about 25-27 in service at any one time or is it still the same as the timetable per nextgenerationairline?
Interesting if they are thinking of putting the Q400 on the MXP, as a SLF & wimp I would not enjoy flying back through summer CB's at 25000
However I really enjoyed my only trip on the Q400 (in winter showers)
but it was only to EDI.
With MXP, HAJ, HAM and STR there is no alternative at BHX and I have
noticed to small extent that LH loads on Dusseldorf have increased (can't say about FRA). Also since April, Air France CDG flights have been rammed except for Bank Holidays but again I think that this is more due to the reduction in the number of seats in the market at BHX.
I just hope flybe give these routes a chance even it has to be the Q400 on some of the longer routes.
Is there any update on introducing more Q400's into service, I think there are now 31 with about 25-27 in service at any one time or is it still the same as the timetable per nextgenerationairline?
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I guess that Flybe are being sensible with the new routes inherited from BACon. Flybe know full well that you can't operate the Embraer 145's with Q400 ticket prices. The likelihood is that the higher fares being charged by Flybe now are those required to make the aircraft pay for itself. You could argue that these fare levels are the ones BA should have been charging all along for these small expensive jets!.If exchanged for a Q400 in the months to come you no doubt will find more of the lower priced fares available given the operating cost benefit of this aircraft.
Out of Flybe and BACon, I know which Revenue Management team I'd trust to get the economics right!
Give it time, I think it's important to note how good the first month has been, yes there have been delays but the benchmark figure is departures within 15mins of STD and generally this performance has been remarkable. A friend in Flybe commented that they have acheived just over 80% punctuality in April for the entire operation. That's pretty significant when you see what was done in such a short time.
Every substitution of an E145 with a Q400 brings with it cost savings and this will be replicated through into lower fares for passengers, and better service given that Flybe know this aircraft very well indeed.
Out of Flybe and BACon, I know which Revenue Management team I'd trust to get the economics right!
Give it time, I think it's important to note how good the first month has been, yes there have been delays but the benchmark figure is departures within 15mins of STD and generally this performance has been remarkable. A friend in Flybe commented that they have acheived just over 80% punctuality in April for the entire operation. That's pretty significant when you see what was done in such a short time.
Every substitution of an E145 with a Q400 brings with it cost savings and this will be replicated through into lower fares for passengers, and better service given that Flybe know this aircraft very well indeed.
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Must say I was sad to hear a dispatcher with whom I was having a drink with last night down the boozer make comment about the suspect "dont want to be here crews".
I must stress I have had no experience of this in the crew rooms but according to the dispatcher many conversations go like this -
"You have a slot time of ####, when would you like the pax captain?"
"I don't care, whenever"
"Well flybe policy Captain is to board on time and angle for an improvement on the slot by being ready - would you like them now?"
"Look, I really don't give a F##K as I am leaving shortly to Easyjet and could'nt care less about this airline......"
Aparently this is quite a typical style of conversation. If this is the case I feel rather upset that some people are willing to drag down the company that rescued them. Thanks professionals as the majority of us try and deliver a product.
I must stress I have had no experience of this in the crew rooms but according to the dispatcher many conversations go like this -
"You have a slot time of ####, when would you like the pax captain?"
"I don't care, whenever"
"Well flybe policy Captain is to board on time and angle for an improvement on the slot by being ready - would you like them now?"
"Look, I really don't give a F##K as I am leaving shortly to Easyjet and could'nt care less about this airline......"
Aparently this is quite a typical style of conversation. If this is the case I feel rather upset that some people are willing to drag down the company that rescued them. Thanks professionals as the majority of us try and deliver a product.
I was a satisfied customer on both BAcon and Flybe before the merger. As the merger approached and the mood changed, a couple of personal experiences prompted me to look elsewhere. Since the merger I have not yet returned to Flybe. I'll wait until the dust has settled and only then I may give them a try again. Mind you, that may well only happen if they can match or better the fares I'm presently paying with the competition! I understand the problems and frustrations experienced by Flybe and ex BAcon personnel, but, as a paying customer, I need to get from A to B as quickly and as efficiently as possible. I don't have the time and money to be charitable to a commercial concern whilst they get there house in order. At the moment I consider the Flybe operation as unreliable and thus choose to take my business elsewhere.
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Capt Airprox,
I have seen no such attitude from any of our leavers - CC or FD. I have seen piss poor service from Swissport at BHX, though the remaining BAR guys have a good attitude. Is your mate Swissport? Many of them are a disgrace.
AW
I have seen no such attitude from any of our leavers - CC or FD. I have seen piss poor service from Swissport at BHX, though the remaining BAR guys have a good attitude. Is your mate Swissport? Many of them are a disgrace.
AW