SHANNON
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I think they should build a Heathrow type airport at Knock, it is the centre of the world. 6 runways each direction with fast trains to sligo and athlone every 20 seconds.
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Skipness One, you had better research your FACTS before putting your thoughts on paper. Oil accounts for 1/3 of the WHOLE of the UAE's GDP, of which Dubai has but 6%, and 2% of its gas revenues.
By every measure from the World Bank, IMF and various other sources, in 2007 Ireland had a larger GDP and more GDI (Gross Domestic Income) than Dubai.
The CIA World Fact Book states in its 2008 edition that the WHOLE the UAE, with an almost identical population to the Irish Republic and with all its oil revenues, was the third richest country in the world by GDP in 2007, after Luxembourg and Equatorial Guinea. Then came Norway. FIFTH was Ireland, followed by the USA.
You obviously don't understand the potential of an Atlantic seaboard multi-modal hub. It has nothing to do with the range of the 747 but everything to do with diverting shipping from the overcrowded lanes of the English Channel. Had such a hub been established at Shannon in the 1960s Europoort Rotterdam would not have achieved its significance.
A Shannon multi modal centre would have had Europe at its back door and excellent access by sea to the US, Middle and Far East.
Studies conducted in the late 1980s by the WTO listed a number of countries with sites ideal for multi modal cargo centres due to their deep water access, membership of alliances or economic unions, willingness to develop "Freeports", availablity of airports, room in physical and airspace terms for intense air freight expansion and railhead/road networks.
Dubai was one of the front runners and Shannon was listed in the top 20 potential sites, even given Rotterdam's pre-eminence as a port, Shannon's major drawback being lack of continental rail and road links - which also applied to Dubai.
Dubai has grasped the concept and gone ahead, Shannon hasn't - but then redeveloping the simple country road on which I live and adding street lights and drainage, a task achievable in weeks anywhere else, has now taken 12 months for a 600 yard stretch and, as work has now finished until next year, it will April before we see the project completed.
There has been more than enough cash in this country in the last 15 years. The problem is it has been sqandered with millions spent on, for instance, electronic voting machines which have never been used and are costing added millions a year to store. I could go on but anyone living here knows the score only too well.
By every measure from the World Bank, IMF and various other sources, in 2007 Ireland had a larger GDP and more GDI (Gross Domestic Income) than Dubai.
The CIA World Fact Book states in its 2008 edition that the WHOLE the UAE, with an almost identical population to the Irish Republic and with all its oil revenues, was the third richest country in the world by GDP in 2007, after Luxembourg and Equatorial Guinea. Then came Norway. FIFTH was Ireland, followed by the USA.
You obviously don't understand the potential of an Atlantic seaboard multi-modal hub. It has nothing to do with the range of the 747 but everything to do with diverting shipping from the overcrowded lanes of the English Channel. Had such a hub been established at Shannon in the 1960s Europoort Rotterdam would not have achieved its significance.
A Shannon multi modal centre would have had Europe at its back door and excellent access by sea to the US, Middle and Far East.
Studies conducted in the late 1980s by the WTO listed a number of countries with sites ideal for multi modal cargo centres due to their deep water access, membership of alliances or economic unions, willingness to develop "Freeports", availablity of airports, room in physical and airspace terms for intense air freight expansion and railhead/road networks.
Dubai was one of the front runners and Shannon was listed in the top 20 potential sites, even given Rotterdam's pre-eminence as a port, Shannon's major drawback being lack of continental rail and road links - which also applied to Dubai.
Dubai has grasped the concept and gone ahead, Shannon hasn't - but then redeveloping the simple country road on which I live and adding street lights and drainage, a task achievable in weeks anywhere else, has now taken 12 months for a 600 yard stretch and, as work has now finished until next year, it will April before we see the project completed.
There has been more than enough cash in this country in the last 15 years. The problem is it has been sqandered with millions spent on, for instance, electronic voting machines which have never been used and are costing added millions a year to store. I could go on but anyone living here knows the score only too well.
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Phil.....like the rest of the SNN contingent you are getting carried away with yourself. The best you can hope for is a few oceanic westerly heading biz jets destined to non custom US airfields. Ireland Inc. is today broke, what it was is irrelevant, to compare Shannon to Dubai....that's the best joke ever.......hey let's build the world in the Foynes estuary.......shure they'll be queueing up to buy! Shannon's best hope is survival.
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iwhawk, I can assure you I'm not getting carried away with anything.
BTW, what's wrong with comparing Ireland to Dubai? The IMF, WTO, World Bank and other institutions do and it compares very favourably. Ireland is only as broke as the rest of the world.
I don't know what you do to earn a crust but I spent much of my working life dealing with the development of business travel and economic development to one of the UK's major metropolitan areas and another good slice of my life designing and running conferences, think tanks and promotional events for governments, airlines, airports and various world bodies with an emphasis on aviation.
Everything I have written about Shannon could have been achieved given the political will.
What can now be achieved may be a different matter but reliance on tourism, golf, agriculture and possible random development of call centres is certainly NOT the way forward for Munster or the country as a whole.
No doubt you would have laughed at the idea of Lufthansa having both engine and airframe maintenance at SNN when it was first mooted.
Obviously, if the government and the general populace share your view, then all Shannon can hope for will be survival but, hopefully there are people out there with ideas and the vision, drive and commitment to make something of this valuable asset - all characteristics so lacking in your attitude.
BTW, what's wrong with comparing Ireland to Dubai? The IMF, WTO, World Bank and other institutions do and it compares very favourably. Ireland is only as broke as the rest of the world.
I don't know what you do to earn a crust but I spent much of my working life dealing with the development of business travel and economic development to one of the UK's major metropolitan areas and another good slice of my life designing and running conferences, think tanks and promotional events for governments, airlines, airports and various world bodies with an emphasis on aviation.
Everything I have written about Shannon could have been achieved given the political will.
What can now be achieved may be a different matter but reliance on tourism, golf, agriculture and possible random development of call centres is certainly NOT the way forward for Munster or the country as a whole.
No doubt you would have laughed at the idea of Lufthansa having both engine and airframe maintenance at SNN when it was first mooted.
Obviously, if the government and the general populace share your view, then all Shannon can hope for will be survival but, hopefully there are people out there with ideas and the vision, drive and commitment to make something of this valuable asset - all characteristics so lacking in your attitude.
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You obviously don't understand the potential of an Atlantic seaboard multi-modal hub.
I mean there's rants and then there's just being Victor Meldrew.
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So, Skipness, for the sake of a few cheap jibes you are happy to ignore the FACTS as detailed by the world's major economic bodies re the wealth Ireland.
There's nothing sparing about the application of the figures, what is in question is the way the Irish government has squandered the wealth of the last 15 years to the detriment of just about every sector of the country's infrastructure.
If the Irish Government failed to see the benefits of the multi-modal hub as postulated by the WTO, (who, dare I say it is a body composed of people far more knowlegable than you or I) that's no excuse for you to poke fun at someone with a great deal more experience of life in general and of what we are talking about than you have gained in the very few years you will have been in commerce, or whatever it is you do (not much it seems as, for someone in work you spend far too much time on here).
There's nothing sparing about the application of the figures, what is in question is the way the Irish government has squandered the wealth of the last 15 years to the detriment of just about every sector of the country's infrastructure.
If the Irish Government failed to see the benefits of the multi-modal hub as postulated by the WTO, (who, dare I say it is a body composed of people far more knowlegable than you or I) that's no excuse for you to poke fun at someone with a great deal more experience of life in general and of what we are talking about than you have gained in the very few years you will have been in commerce, or whatever it is you do (not much it seems as, for someone in work you spend far too much time on here).
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"With regard to cargo, it's nothing to do with critical mass"
While i dont agree with everything you've said i do agree with this but then its the usual suspects on this forum trotting out negativity. I would have more realistic expectations of what the US deal will deliver to SNN but its the same story from certain people. They had cityjet gone from Shannon before the route even started, had said all t/a services would be gone from shannon years ago, complain about all the money given to shannon that they can't quantify or detail, who whinge when they have a crap terminal and moan when they are asked to pay something for a new shiny one (tis all the dubs fault, they promised us, they said they would) which cost nearly 10 times what was spent on Shannon's a few years previously.. In the grand scheme of things and by world standards Cork's critical mass is just as small. Its still a very small city on the edge of a tiny island on the very periphery of Europe...
Its the same story all the time, any time there's a development in or discussion about Shannon the Cork crew are out in force...it will never work, it'll be gone in a month..bla bla..any discussion thats starts on here is negated by the constant begrudgery coming from 'da real capital'.
Its not just the airport though, the same ****e went on when Thomond Park was being rebuilt..it'll never work, it should be moved to Cork bla bla bla..
Even their hurling team are on strike FFS..
No wonder there's little discussion about Dublin on here...they have more sense than to engage in this parochial horse doo doo..
While i dont agree with everything you've said i do agree with this but then its the usual suspects on this forum trotting out negativity. I would have more realistic expectations of what the US deal will deliver to SNN but its the same story from certain people. They had cityjet gone from Shannon before the route even started, had said all t/a services would be gone from shannon years ago, complain about all the money given to shannon that they can't quantify or detail, who whinge when they have a crap terminal and moan when they are asked to pay something for a new shiny one (tis all the dubs fault, they promised us, they said they would) which cost nearly 10 times what was spent on Shannon's a few years previously.. In the grand scheme of things and by world standards Cork's critical mass is just as small. Its still a very small city on the edge of a tiny island on the very periphery of Europe...
Its the same story all the time, any time there's a development in or discussion about Shannon the Cork crew are out in force...it will never work, it'll be gone in a month..bla bla..any discussion thats starts on here is negated by the constant begrudgery coming from 'da real capital'.
Its not just the airport though, the same ****e went on when Thomond Park was being rebuilt..it'll never work, it should be moved to Cork bla bla bla..
Even their hurling team are on strike FFS..
No wonder there's little discussion about Dublin on here...they have more sense than to engage in this parochial horse doo doo..
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Perhaps the naysayers on here should read the following with particular regard to section 3.
http://www.euro-case.org/publication...ortIreland.pdf
This is obviously blue sky thinking but is thinking by a group of experts looking at possibilities in terms of known realities and needs
http://www.euro-case.org/publication...ortIreland.pdf
This is obviously blue sky thinking but is thinking by a group of experts looking at possibilities in terms of known realities and needs
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While i dont agree with everything you've said i do agree with this but then its the usual suspects on this forum trotting out negativity. I would have more realistic expectations of what the US deal will deliver to SNN but its the same story from certain people. They had cityjet gone from Shannon before the route even started, had said all t/a services would be gone from shannon years ago, complain about all the money given to shannon that they can't quantify or detail, who whinge when they have a crap terminal and moan when they are asked to pay something for a new shiny one (tis all the dubs fault, they promised us, they said they would) which cost nearly 10 times what was spent on Shannon's a few years previously.. In the grand scheme of things and by world standards Cork's critical mass is just as small. Its still a very small city on the edge of a tiny island on the very periphery of Europe...
Its the same story all the time, any time there's a development in or discussion about Shannon the Cork crew are out in force...it will never work, it'll be gone in a month..bla bla..any discussion thats starts on here is negated by the constant begrudgery coming from 'da real capital'.
Its not just the airport though, the same ****e went on when Thomond Park was being rebuilt..it'll never work, it should be moved to Cork bla bla bla..
Even their hurling team are on strike FFS..
Its the same story all the time, any time there's a development in or discussion about Shannon the Cork crew are out in force...it will never work, it'll be gone in a month..bla bla..any discussion thats starts on here is negated by the constant begrudgery coming from 'da real capital'.
Its not just the airport though, the same ****e went on when Thomond Park was being rebuilt..it'll never work, it should be moved to Cork bla bla bla..
Even their hurling team are on strike FFS..
get your facts straight. Noone even mentioned Cork until you did. In fact the most vocal 'naysayer' Skipness One Echo is from London (as you can see from the location field). Why is it that if anyone from anywhere says anything even remotely negative about Shannon yer attitude is that, oh well they must be from Cork if they don't think Shannon is the centre of the universe.
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Get your facts straight. the comment i referred to was by Ryan2000 and his critical mass comment..a cork man who knocks everything snn related.
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en2r.......have to agree, trying to have a rational debate about Shannon is impossible, dare anybody attempt to be realistic, Shannon is unaffected by the global crisis, Ryanair will treble traffic, hundreds more airlines, thousands of new jobs, terminal have to be extended into Galway and parts of Kerry to accomodate expansion, Shannon to be renamed capital of Europe. Now vkid are you happy!
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It's not me that caused American Airlines, Air Canada, Royal Jordanian, PIA, Virgin Express, Aeroflot, Hapag Lyod Express, Flybe, Thompsonfly, British Regional, Aerlingus, (LHR), Easyjet, Aer Arann, Worldairways and Centralwings to withdraw from Shannon over the last decade.
Shannon continues to throw money at airlines in order to grow the traffic but ends up losing the business over time. It's cost base is still far too high. Sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost just like they are at Aerlingus now.
It should concentrate on developing sustainable routes and stop trying to be a cross roads of the aviation world.
Cork would also want to watch its cost base although management there over the years are much more prudent in their approach.
High cost airports and low cost airlines are incompatible.
Shannon continues to throw money at airlines in order to grow the traffic but ends up losing the business over time. It's cost base is still far too high. Sooner or later the chickens will come home to roost just like they are at Aerlingus now.
It should concentrate on developing sustainable routes and stop trying to be a cross roads of the aviation world.
Cork would also want to watch its cost base although management there over the years are much more prudent in their approach.
High cost airports and low cost airlines are incompatible.
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Ryan2000, your last sentence is accurate but the withdrawal of many of the airlines listed has nothing to do with the costs of operating at SNN.
The market to Canada from to/from SNN is much more Air Transat than Air Canada. When AC had to serve SNN to allow access to DUB, it did. When that neccesity was removed, AC went. Royal Jordanian moved from Amsterdam to Shannon for the fuel stop when its A310s didn't have the range for direct Amman - US flights. It didn't have fifth freedon rights at Amsterdam and SNN offered cheaper handling. It also got fifth freedom and the empty seats it sold ex SNN were a bonus. When it bought A340s the need for the fuel stop went away.
PIA decided on SNN over MAN when its MAN base was tiny. The decision was political within PIA and caused ructions up to government level. The airline was ordered to operate through MAN and then achieved various economic benefits of scale, as well as access to a Halal kitchen so food top ups could be made if necessary.
Aeroflot only served SNN when its aircraft didn't have the range for direct flights. Aer Rianta capitalised on the need by doing the fuel farm deal. The need has gone, so has the airline - again the seats it sold was a bonus at a time the USSR and the Russian Federation needed hard currency - something it now has in bundles.
As you are very well aware the Aer Lingus decision was nothing to do with cost. The route was extremely profitable. The decision was "political" as Aer Lingus was determined to have a slice of the Belfast market and didn't have the slots without ditching SNN. The performance of the Belfast base is nowhere near as good as hoped.
The World Airways decision was a security decision after the peace campaigners' actions. As far as is known, US trooping flights don't pay the normal handling charges.
CentralWings was going down the tubes when it withdrew - as it did from many other stations.
Aer Arran's service was a reaction to Aer Lingus withdrawing ticket sales on the DUB-SNN sectors of transatlantic flights and their total withdrawal of the domestic service. Aer Arran didn't even try to make the route work with poor timings and poor marketing and Aer Lingus relented and sold tickets on the sector after one summer so Aer Arran gave up.
Thompson to Coventry was a joke. The early morning departure meant a 07.40 check in at the latest - OK if you live in Limerick or stayed at the Gt Southern the night before, useless otherwise and, at Coventry, if you were lucky enough not to have to walk 150 yards in pouring rain - as happened when I used the flight - you still had a tiny arrivals area, a half hour wait for the only bus for Coventry to connect to Birmingham etc, and like as not you would have to queue in the rain.
With FlyBe, easyJet, American and Virgin Express you may well have a point but Hapag Lloyd were well and truly shafted by O'Leary.
The market to Canada from to/from SNN is much more Air Transat than Air Canada. When AC had to serve SNN to allow access to DUB, it did. When that neccesity was removed, AC went. Royal Jordanian moved from Amsterdam to Shannon for the fuel stop when its A310s didn't have the range for direct Amman - US flights. It didn't have fifth freedon rights at Amsterdam and SNN offered cheaper handling. It also got fifth freedom and the empty seats it sold ex SNN were a bonus. When it bought A340s the need for the fuel stop went away.
PIA decided on SNN over MAN when its MAN base was tiny. The decision was political within PIA and caused ructions up to government level. The airline was ordered to operate through MAN and then achieved various economic benefits of scale, as well as access to a Halal kitchen so food top ups could be made if necessary.
Aeroflot only served SNN when its aircraft didn't have the range for direct flights. Aer Rianta capitalised on the need by doing the fuel farm deal. The need has gone, so has the airline - again the seats it sold was a bonus at a time the USSR and the Russian Federation needed hard currency - something it now has in bundles.
As you are very well aware the Aer Lingus decision was nothing to do with cost. The route was extremely profitable. The decision was "political" as Aer Lingus was determined to have a slice of the Belfast market and didn't have the slots without ditching SNN. The performance of the Belfast base is nowhere near as good as hoped.
The World Airways decision was a security decision after the peace campaigners' actions. As far as is known, US trooping flights don't pay the normal handling charges.
CentralWings was going down the tubes when it withdrew - as it did from many other stations.
Aer Arran's service was a reaction to Aer Lingus withdrawing ticket sales on the DUB-SNN sectors of transatlantic flights and their total withdrawal of the domestic service. Aer Arran didn't even try to make the route work with poor timings and poor marketing and Aer Lingus relented and sold tickets on the sector after one summer so Aer Arran gave up.
Thompson to Coventry was a joke. The early morning departure meant a 07.40 check in at the latest - OK if you live in Limerick or stayed at the Gt Southern the night before, useless otherwise and, at Coventry, if you were lucky enough not to have to walk 150 yards in pouring rain - as happened when I used the flight - you still had a tiny arrivals area, a half hour wait for the only bus for Coventry to connect to Birmingham etc, and like as not you would have to queue in the rain.
With FlyBe, easyJet, American and Virgin Express you may well have a point but Hapag Lloyd were well and truly shafted by O'Leary.
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This arguement is pointless, looking back instead of forward. If SNN Management dont get the finger out and sell this to whoever possible, you can be sure that Dublin will. SNN have a one year head start and despite the pesimistic views of our southern friends I beleive we will see more than a few bizjets as a result, but its up to management to deliver it. For starters there is also the posibility of BA opening up many more routes thru SNN form LCY. Sure its only transit but what the heck, would Cork turn it down?
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Thanks Philbky for your detailed reply. My point is that there is no sense to putting vast funds into establishing routes that are not sustainable. It is well known in the aviation industry that Shannon will offer very generous terms and incentives in order to attract business.
What return did the tax payer get from the Aeroflot fuel farm and houses provided by SFADCO for the Russian crews. What about the free call centre given to Virgin Express, the new flight kitchen for PIA and Royal Jordanian and the latest Ryanair deal? MOL says that FR are losing money there and sources tell me that Shannon is set to lose around 10 million euro this year!
Of course they needn't worry as the DAA and /or the Government will bail them out as has been case over the decades.
What return did the tax payer get from the Aeroflot fuel farm and houses provided by SFADCO for the Russian crews. What about the free call centre given to Virgin Express, the new flight kitchen for PIA and Royal Jordanian and the latest Ryanair deal? MOL says that FR are losing money there and sources tell me that Shannon is set to lose around 10 million euro this year!
Of course they needn't worry as the DAA and /or the Government will bail them out as has been case over the decades.
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Totally agree that tax payers shouldn't be subsidising no hopers but governments also look at the cost of paying people to be unemployed - not just the cost in cash, but the cost in social disruption, medication, run down living conditions, human dignity etc., costs that are often greater than subsidising no hope business opportunities.
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It should concentrate on developing sustainable routes and stop trying to be a cross roads of the aviation world.
As regards trying to be a cross roads of the aviation world, with long haul traffic in decline and little propects on the horizon, the SAA will take any new business that they can. Cant really blame them for that?
You make some valid points re the long list of airline withdrawls. Many of these would be here still if it were not for Ryanairs aggressive scheduling.
Many others were going out of business or changing form and Shannon would be a marginal route for them, eg British Regional, Virgin Express, Central Wings, etc.
Aeroflot was a reliable one for so long, but it was only going to be a matter of time before Shannon was no longer needed. And the current climate lends itself to cost cutting so stops enroute are avoided at all cost!
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Big Ryanair cuts
Ryanair are following through with their promise to make big cuts at Shannon if the government introduced the air travel tax. Shannon seems to be losing at least 1 aircraft from the 1st of July. I've just had a quick look at the flights on sale and from what I can see:
- Shannon-Biarritz seems to be completely axed
- Shannon-Fuerteventura is axed
- Shannon-Hahn is axed (for the 3rd time!) with the last flight on the 29th of June
- Shannon-Lodz is axed (for the 2nd time!) with the last flight on the 29th of June
- Shannon-Prestwick reduced to 4 weekly from 1 July (currently daily)
- Shannon-Liverpool reduced to 3 weekly from 1 July (currently daily)
- Shannon-Stansted reduced to 3 daily from 1 July (currently 4 daily), just 1 of the 3 SNN-STN rotations will be operated be a SNN based aircraft compared to all 4 at present
- Shannon-Manchester reduced to 5 weekly from 1 July (currently daily)
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Ryanair are following through with their promise to make big cuts at Shannon.
Ryanair is lossmaking at Shannon. This has nothing to do with travel taxes. If it was, FR would be hacking their UK base routes. Ryanair are trying to right size the airline so they can lose less at Shannon.
Shannon-Stansted reduced to 3 daily from 1 July (currently 4 daily), just 1 of the 3 SNN-STN rotations will be operated be a SNN based aircraft compared to all 4 at present