SHANNON
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You're suggesting that other carriers should be brave and should start routes out of SNN, effectively calling Ryanair's bluff. Frankly, if I were a shareholder in the likes of easyJet or Jet2, I would regard this as suicidal folly - certainly not a wise use of cash.
(...)
If you feel there's a real business opportunity, go and do it - others' timidity may be your opportunity.
(...)
If you feel there's a real business opportunity, go and do it - others' timidity may be your opportunity.
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You are criticising others for being fearful of FR competition, and you're exhorting carriers to be bolder. With respect, I think you are being unrealistic if you think that lower landing fees in SNN will somehow keep FR out.
Let's imagine that SNN says to easyJet (or Jet2, or whoever you like), "hey, come and fly routes from SNN, and we'll only charge you €0.50 per passenger, and we promise that we'll not do any discount deals with Ryanair." Do you imagine that Ryanair will therefore conclude "oh, damn, we lost that one, never mind", and walk away? FR is currently operating DUB-ORK with poor load factors and yields, which they launched in competition with Aer Arann (and therefore are unlikely to have a discount deal) - but they keep operating it to keep the pressure on RE. The history of easyJet's (and before them Go's) failed incursions into Ireland demonstrate FR's aggressive response to competition, with or without discounted airport deals. While I deplore FR's hyper-aggressive approach to competition, it does not surprise me: if you had that many new aircraft arriving that you had to fill, you too would be willing to take some short-term financial sacrifices in order to keep markets to yourself in the longer term.
You're suggesting that other carriers should be brave and should start routes out of SNN, effectively calling Ryanair's bluff. Frankly, if I were a shareholder in the likes of easyJet or Jet2, I would regard this as suicidal folly - certainly not a wise use of cash. Faced with a choice of new route startups, one which carries a risk of a war with Ryanair and another which doesn't, which makes more sense? Especially since - with all due respect - the potential return from the SNN market is not so lucrative as to justify the risks.
You may deplore this timidity in the face of Ryanair and wish it were otherwise. I can entirely understand that. But it is a perfectly rational timidity. One of the most frequent omissions in startup-company business plans is real consideration of what the competition will do - the assumption is "we're small, so they won't do anything." This is not a safe assumption, even less so when the competitor in question has established its reputation for squashing competition. Please feel free to disagree, go out and raise money for a startup, and fly from SNN. I am not being funny, I'm being sincere. If you feel there's a real business opportunity, go and do it - others' timidity may be your opportunity.
Let's imagine that SNN says to easyJet (or Jet2, or whoever you like), "hey, come and fly routes from SNN, and we'll only charge you €0.50 per passenger, and we promise that we'll not do any discount deals with Ryanair." Do you imagine that Ryanair will therefore conclude "oh, damn, we lost that one, never mind", and walk away? FR is currently operating DUB-ORK with poor load factors and yields, which they launched in competition with Aer Arann (and therefore are unlikely to have a discount deal) - but they keep operating it to keep the pressure on RE. The history of easyJet's (and before them Go's) failed incursions into Ireland demonstrate FR's aggressive response to competition, with or without discounted airport deals. While I deplore FR's hyper-aggressive approach to competition, it does not surprise me: if you had that many new aircraft arriving that you had to fill, you too would be willing to take some short-term financial sacrifices in order to keep markets to yourself in the longer term.
You're suggesting that other carriers should be brave and should start routes out of SNN, effectively calling Ryanair's bluff. Frankly, if I were a shareholder in the likes of easyJet or Jet2, I would regard this as suicidal folly - certainly not a wise use of cash. Faced with a choice of new route startups, one which carries a risk of a war with Ryanair and another which doesn't, which makes more sense? Especially since - with all due respect - the potential return from the SNN market is not so lucrative as to justify the risks.
You may deplore this timidity in the face of Ryanair and wish it were otherwise. I can entirely understand that. But it is a perfectly rational timidity. One of the most frequent omissions in startup-company business plans is real consideration of what the competition will do - the assumption is "we're small, so they won't do anything." This is not a safe assumption, even less so when the competitor in question has established its reputation for squashing competition. Please feel free to disagree, go out and raise money for a startup, and fly from SNN. I am not being funny, I'm being sincere. If you feel there's a real business opportunity, go and do it - others' timidity may be your opportunity.
a) With all due respect. I don 't care if I am unrealistic. I do know what would happen if everybody adopts the "there is nothing that can be done" attitude or the "perfectly rational timidity" attitude. It will happen that business is gone, as it has happened in other airports. To this we only have two options .Either we can go to the pub for a pint and to lick our wounds with perfectly rational timidity or we can try to think in alternatives. Even unrealistic alternatives are valid to me even if they only serve to the purpose of setting up the limits
b)It is not my job to raise money and start up a company business. However, is the job, and the duty, of the guys and gals in the SAA to loook for other options beyond FR.
c) what SAA could try, in my opinion, is not only what you mention about charges, that as well, but a commitment to say to other FR direct competitors: Here is the deal: not only am I offering you x amount of charge per passenger but I am telling you if you come and do business with me, SAA, I will charge Ryanair double amount in fees per passenger than the amount I am charging you for x amount of time. This is only an example of what could be done. I honestly do not see what is the problem in picking up the phone and making this kind of unrealistic offers to FR competitors and their shareholders.
And the point behind this idea is, precise, what you have mentioned about FR competitors.They have failed to enter the market because FR fought better.Well, is time to kick FR out of the market and give entry to new players and new rules. What you say about FR and Aer Arann in Cork is precisely why this has to be fought back. If SAA has an oportunity to survive is by fighting back FR, not by melting down with "perfectly rational timidity". What is sure, because we have seen it throughout Europe, is that if you play FR game you are going to suffer the consequences, one way or the other. Besides, what is FR going to retaliate back with? withdrawing their planes?
Whas is there left for Shannon airport to lose?
Good reply, Cyrano. It's so easy to have the courageous tongue (or pen) with no need to bear any financial consequences. Have the money - invest them, hopefully you'll make some more, at least you can believe it happens.
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Gelofab.......Shannon, like the Irish economy has been punching above it's weight for the last number of years becuase of the FR deal. Even at that FR with its low cost base could not make money there. You will see one or two small moves next year, but that's it. As long as FR are still lurking no airline in their right mind would make any serious moves on Shannon, and more importantly no commercial manager in any airline would risk his career on a Shannon excursion, especially when you can make far more cautious plays further east. Don't forget the catchment area for the West of Ireland is smaller than the average sized city. Lastly, and tinal nail, the FR traffic was driven primarily from Irish originating pax, and they have stopped travelling. What was is gone for ever, it is now up to the SAA management to drive the costs down further to match the revenue, to survive. So gelo as others have said it is about reality and yes you are being unrealistic.
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Cyrano:
a) With all due respect. I don 't care if I am unrealistic. I do know what would happen if everybody adopts the "there is nothing that can be done" attitude or the "perfectly rational timidity" attitude. It will happen that business is gone, as it has happened in other airports. To this we only have two options .Either we can go to the pub for a pint and to lick our wounds with perfectly rational timidity or we can try to think in alternatives. Even unrealistic alternatives are valid to me even if they only serve to the purpose of setting up the limits
b)It is not my job to raise money and start up a company business. However, is the job, and the duty, of the guys and gals in the SAA to loook for other options beyond FR.
c) what SAA could try, in my opinion, is not only what you mention about charges, that as well, but a commitment to say to other FR direct competitors: Here is the deal: not only am I offering you x amount of charge per passenger but I am telling you if you come and do business with me, SAA, I will charge Ryanair double amount in fees per passenger than the amount I am charging you for x amount of time. This is only an example of what could be done. I honestly do not see what is the problem in picking up the phone and making this kind of unrealistic offers to FR competitors and their shareholders.
And the point behind this idea is, precise, what you have mentioned about FR competitors.They have failed to enter the market because FR fought better.Well, is time to kick FR out of the market and give entry to new players and new rules. What you say about FR and Aer Arann in Cork is precisely why this has to be fought back. If SAA has an oportunity to survive is by fighting back FR, not by melting down with "perfectly rational timidity". What is sure, because we have seen it throughout Europe, is that if you play FR game you are going to suffer the consequences, one way or the other. Besides, what is FR going to retaliate back with? withdrawing their planes?
Whas is there left for Shannon airport to lose?
it is definitely easier to tell to each other there is nothing can be done so let's go to the pub for a pint or two and to watch soccer.That I can do too.
a) With all due respect. I don 't care if I am unrealistic. I do know what would happen if everybody adopts the "there is nothing that can be done" attitude or the "perfectly rational timidity" attitude. It will happen that business is gone, as it has happened in other airports. To this we only have two options .Either we can go to the pub for a pint and to lick our wounds with perfectly rational timidity or we can try to think in alternatives. Even unrealistic alternatives are valid to me even if they only serve to the purpose of setting up the limits
b)It is not my job to raise money and start up a company business. However, is the job, and the duty, of the guys and gals in the SAA to loook for other options beyond FR.
c) what SAA could try, in my opinion, is not only what you mention about charges, that as well, but a commitment to say to other FR direct competitors: Here is the deal: not only am I offering you x amount of charge per passenger but I am telling you if you come and do business with me, SAA, I will charge Ryanair double amount in fees per passenger than the amount I am charging you for x amount of time. This is only an example of what could be done. I honestly do not see what is the problem in picking up the phone and making this kind of unrealistic offers to FR competitors and their shareholders.
And the point behind this idea is, precise, what you have mentioned about FR competitors.They have failed to enter the market because FR fought better.Well, is time to kick FR out of the market and give entry to new players and new rules. What you say about FR and Aer Arann in Cork is precisely why this has to be fought back. If SAA has an oportunity to survive is by fighting back FR, not by melting down with "perfectly rational timidity". What is sure, because we have seen it throughout Europe, is that if you play FR game you are going to suffer the consequences, one way or the other. Besides, what is FR going to retaliate back with? withdrawing their planes?
Whas is there left for Shannon airport to lose?
it is definitely easier to tell to each other there is nothing can be done so let's go to the pub for a pint or two and to watch soccer.That I can do too.
My last comment on this subject. I do airline route development for a living but apparently don't understand it as well as you.
You ask (my emphasis above) why SAA don't go out and offer deals to other carriers along the lines of "we'll give you a discount, and we'll charge Ryanair more."
I have news for you: they do. I see the SNN Marketing Manager at every route development conference I attend and I'm sure at others I don't attend, and I'm sure he is talking to airlines in between the conferences. In the past, SNN has offered a discount scheme to the first airline entering a given route (subsequent airlines on the route don't get the discount). I have no doubt whatsoever that if an airline wanted to serve a new route from SNN they'd be able to negotiate this kind of deal. When I refer to "rational timidity", I am not talking about SNN, but about airlines, who are by and large neither as financially strong nor as aggressive as Ryanair, and who are trying to find ways of developing their network without just becoming FR's next victim.
What I seem to be having difficulty communicating is that with the threat of Ryanair competition, it doesn't matter if SNN promises you, the airline, a discount landing-fee deal. Yes, it will reduce your costs (or increase your revenue, depending on how you show it on the ticket) by say EUR5 per passenger. Great - this certainly helps your route breakeven in the absence of competition. But then Ryanair blasts in and suddenly your revenue is halved, and their goal is not to make money on the route, but just to get rid of you. No landing-fee discount deal will immunise you against that.
But what do I know? My Board and shareholders have this unreasonable expectation that we will not launch routes without at least a reasonable hope of profitability. Nothing to do with going to the pub and watching soccer.
Merry Christmas.
C.
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Cyrano: if we agree , and I think we do from your comments, that in this particular time and moment Ryanair is one of the problems and not the solution, then SAA has to tackle that particular problem. And if, as you say, the fear is that in the moment you open a new route , Ryanair comes along to sabotage the route, then and only then, we should agree that SAA job should be preventing that kind of sabotage in a way that allows commercial managers of other airlines (Iwhak dixit) not to be afraid to come to Shannon. What kind of deal should they be offering to FR competitors? I honestly don't know that answer. I am only proposing something that appears to be logic. If Ryanair is part of the problem, you have to try to get Ryanair out of the equation in order to be sure FR is not going to block the entrance of other players. That is, in my opinion, the very basic that should be done by SAA. Having said that I am not saying that SAA marketing manager is an easy job. I am aware of the limitations to market Shannon out there. But FR guerrilla warfare tactics should be dealt with.
Now, as Iwhak has mentioned, the other side of the story is the pax loadings out of Shannon and the irish pax, which constitutes the bulk of the flyers, not flying in this particular moment. I agree with that but crisis do not last forever and I do not agree with Iwhak in one point. The market, even with is limited catchment area, is there. If Shannon has shown capacity to cater for 3 million plus per year that means there is a market there.
Merry Xmas to yo all.
Now, as Iwhak has mentioned, the other side of the story is the pax loadings out of Shannon and the irish pax, which constitutes the bulk of the flyers, not flying in this particular moment. I agree with that but crisis do not last forever and I do not agree with Iwhak in one point. The market, even with is limited catchment area, is there. If Shannon has shown capacity to cater for 3 million plus per year that means there is a market there.
Merry Xmas to yo all.
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DUBH12000
The Swiss flight has been operating for the last 3 to 4 summers. Flight is normally shared with NOC and usually has reasonable enough numbers when it operates.
Scissors
The Swiss flight has been operating for the last 3 to 4 summers. Flight is normally shared with NOC and usually has reasonable enough numbers when it operates.
Scissors
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Niki (and Austrian) last year also operated a Saturday flight to Vienna- hopefully it will return next summer. It was mainly sold as a charter but they sold a few seats themselves on their own website
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Was reading the discussion on the Ryanair/Aer Lingus thread about Ryanair making a fresh bid for Aer Lingus and somebody made some very valid points about same. i.e. Ryanair's treatment of Shannon airport ie issuing ultimatums etc will not be in there favour with the government who hold 25% shares in Aer Lingus. In addition, there unwillingness to use T2 at Dublin airport.
I wonder will MOL reconsider the summer schedule soon ex Shannon?
EI-BUD
I wonder will MOL reconsider the summer schedule soon ex Shannon?
EI-BUD
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No doubt we can expect the usual..
List of promises from Ryanair, and a long list of irish promises, such as a return to 2008 traffic numbers, etc.
With Ryanair, their promises have a similar value to a Las Vegas marriage - great whilst it suits them.
FR are an excellent carrier, with a good value product that works, but only care about one thing. Themselves...
PS - I also expect FR to play bully boy politics over the next few weeks, with threats to drop KIR-DUB, etc to sway independents over to the blue side.. This fight will be dirty. Oh, Wait for the mayors of Clare, Shannon, Ennis, etc in their 'wisdom' to jump on the promises.
* subject to (insert long list here)
- twenty aircraft based at shannon *
- Long haul guaranteed *
- €25m investment *
List of promises from Ryanair, and a long list of irish promises, such as a return to 2008 traffic numbers, etc.
With Ryanair, their promises have a similar value to a Las Vegas marriage - great whilst it suits them.
FR are an excellent carrier, with a good value product that works, but only care about one thing. Themselves...
PS - I also expect FR to play bully boy politics over the next few weeks, with threats to drop KIR-DUB, etc to sway independents over to the blue side.. This fight will be dirty. Oh, Wait for the mayors of Clare, Shannon, Ennis, etc in their 'wisdom' to jump on the promises.
* subject to (insert long list here)
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also expect FR to play bully boy politics over the next few weeks, with threats to drop KIR-DUB, etc to sway independents over to the blue side.. This fight will be dirty. Oh, Wait for the mayors of Clare, Shannon, Ennis, etc in their 'wisdom' to jump on the promises.
EI-BUD
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make a stand
I have used your airport three times a lovely area to spend a few days break. The only way to deal with the bully is to take his last plane out of your airport and drag the tumble weed with him ban his airline for five years then you might get more airlines interested in new routes good luck
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Security incident at Shannon
A man (44) has been arrested after a charter plane en route to the Dutch Antilles was forced to make an emergency landing at Shannon airport earlier this morning.
The Boeing 767, which had 224 passengers onboard, was flying from Amsterdam to Aruba when a passenger began making threats and acting unruly, causing the captain to divert the plane at about 10.30 am.
A Dutch national was arrested shortly after the plane landed under the Air Navigation and Transport act and is currently being held under Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act at Shannon Garda station.
A full search of the Arkflight operated plane and its passengers is currently underway
www.irishtimes.com
The Boeing 767, which had 224 passengers onboard, was flying from Amsterdam to Aruba when a passenger began making threats and acting unruly, causing the captain to divert the plane at about 10.30 am.
A Dutch national was arrested shortly after the plane landed under the Air Navigation and Transport act and is currently being held under Section 4 of the Criminal Justice Act at Shannon Garda station.
A full search of the Arkflight operated plane and its passengers is currently underway
www.irishtimes.com
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hi Copenhagen,what's the story with KIR DUB at the moment? Why do you expect this to happen in the next few weeks? I might have missed something? But have the PSO subsidies been pulled or something?
EI-BUD
EI-BUD
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C.
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I thought it was Cityjet who'd bid for, and successfully won, the DUB-NOC PSO only to turn around and say they didn't really want to do it after all.
Loganair did the LDY-DUB PSO for a number of years which they lost last time around to Aer Arran
Loganair did the LDY-DUB PSO for a number of years which they lost last time around to Aer Arran