SHANNON

[Tom the Tenor]

Well, you would want to say that, wouldn't you? I wonder is that how the SAA feels too?

[vkid]

at this stage who knows. I'd say the SAA are not too happy at the DAA for currently running ads on local Limerick radio for Dublin airport though.

[akerosid]

OK, anyone else who KNEW?

It now emerges that the Great One's Private Secretary knew about the EI plans, having been told by the Dept of Transport, but (allegedly) didn't tell the Taoiseach or the cabinet, even though there was a cabinet meeting two days later.

The failure by an official in the Dept of Transport to tell the minister may be put down to an error/oversight, but now we have two occasions where senior civil servants knew or should have known (and you don't get to the level of Taoiseach's private secretary or cabinet secretary without having pretty sharp political antennae) that their political "masters" would need to be told this info and did not pass it on ... again, allegedly. The phrase "plausible deniability" comes to mind again.

I am not, alas, an expert on how the civil service functions, nor (I suspect) is the govt itself ... this whole debacle is exposing some very serious concerns about how the civil service functions and the extent to which it does/can exercise discretion. I would have assumed that any information becoming known to a civil servant is DEEMED to be known to his/her minister.

As one poster put it on A.net, tomorrow we'll be hearing that the Taoiseach's dog knew about it ... everyone it seems (quite conveniently), except those who were in a decision making capacity.

[heidelberg]

Does anyone really believe if Bertie, Noel etc knew earlier what EI were doing in relation to the SNN/LHR service the decision taken would have changed?


IMO EI had taken the decision and whether Bertie or Noel knew earlier would not have made a bit of difference.


Anyway, as one based on the East coast, it is hard to have much sympathy for the EINN area because we - the paying PAX - were 'screwed' with the Shannon stop over for nearly 50 years and it cost the flying PAX more because of it.


There should be no more handouts to EINN, EICK. They will now have to compete in the real commercial world - and about time too.

Tony Ryan (RIP) and MOL took on the so-called state airline and showed how to lower fares to a fraction what EI were charging. I would like to see a similar approach by the airports who support a highly paid staff with bloated numbers. I say to the airport managements cut the fat and lower your cost base and let the paying customer i.e. PAX benefit. (I suppose I am dreaming expecting this to happen!).

[Charlie Roy]

Maybe when the Taoiseach's private secretary learned that Aer Lingus were cutting the route he thought:
"Okay, an airline is cutting a route. Happens everyday of the week. No big deal. I will not bother the Taoiseach with such a petty news item".

The private secretary thus having a normal reaction to the information, how could he predict the abnormal reaction it got from the Shannon bunch

[eirbus06]

"Hand-outs"

heidelberg,
Could you list the "hand-outs" that ORK got please?

[Aisle2c]

Ryanair, Ireland’s favourite airline, today (25th Oct) announced its 31st new route from Shannon to Alicante and three new routes from Dublin to Palma, Santander and Zadar (Croatia), all of which start in March 2008. This will bring the number of Ryanair routes from Dublin to 83, and from Shannon to 31. Ryanair will carry over13 million passengers on 135 Irish routes next year. No other airline carries as many passengers or offers as many routes to/from Ireland.
Speaking in Limerick today, Ryanair’s CEO Michael O’Leary said:
“Ryanair’s low fares are delivering record growth for Irish Tourism on 135 routes from 7 Irish airports. At a time when Aer Lingus is abandoning regional Irish airports and pulling routes such as Heathrow - Shannon and Poznan, Newcastle and Seville from Dublin, Ryanair will open 18 new routes from Cork, Dublin, Kerry, Knock and Shannon in the next two months alone.
“In two weeks time, Ryanair will open 8 new routes from Shannon, including its first domestic service from Shannon to Dublin. This new route will allow passengers from the mid-west to avoid the nightmare of traffic on the N7 and the M50, with 40 minute flights for less than the cost of a gallon of petrol. Ryanair’s 31 Shannon routes will deliver two million passengers to Shannon in the coming year, generating a visitor spend of €350m and supporting 2,000 local jobs.
“To celebrate the imminent launch of our Shannon Dublin service Ryanair is releasing 10,000 free seats* on its Shannon Dublin route for travel in November, December and January and we advise passengers to book now because these bargains will be snapped up in record time”.

[Aisle2c]

"Ryanair will open 18 new routes from Cork, Dublin, Kerry, Knock and Shannon in the next two months alone."

Anyone know what the Cork ones could be ? Alicante perhaps ?

[MarkD]

all starting to look like an episode of "Yes, (Prime) Minister" - or is that what the nervous ones around the cabinet table want us to think?

[Rallye EI-BFP]

No- He meant routes that have already been announced- in Corks case PIK and EMA

[airhumberside]

Any word if the FR seasonal routes will return (like Bergamo) and if so how they will be accomodated (e.g. further cuts on other routes)

[Angry Rebel]

"There should be no more handouts to EINN, EICK. They will now have to compete in the real commercial world - and about time too"

That's an outrageous comment.

1 - As another poster has already queried, please detail the "handouts" that Cork has received.
2 - It's completely farsical to expect Cork or Shannon to be able to compete on a commercial basis when they are still under the control of the DAA. This entire LHR episode illustrates very well the incredible conflict of interest that exists where Dublin is in control and has can control matters in other airports which have a direct bearing on the nature of competition in Irish aviation.

NB - Before anyone takes my head off, I'm not saying SNN-LHR is direct competition for DUB-LHR, even though people may now have to use Dublin (or Cork) to get to LHR. But, having information as DUB mngt did, about an issue such as this, shows the DAA mngt to be thoroughly unethical and quite happy to behave as they have done to put SNN at a competitive disadvantage. They are doing the same to Cork by trying to sell a landbank to pay for the debt, a landbank which will be essential for expansion in future years.

[en2r]

Any word if the FR seasonal routes will return (like Bergamo) and if so how they will be accomodated (e.g. further cuts on other routes)

They will all return as far as I know, albiet not necessarily at the same frequency. Bergamo and Treviso both previously 4 weekly will return operating twice weekly. Presumably Ryanair will have to base an extra aircraft as Tenerife is the only one of the new routes that won't be operating during the summer, unless of course they do yet another culling of Shannon routes. An extra aircraft would probably cushion the blow of losing Heathrow on Shannon's passenger numbers. However financially it will make little difference since Ryanair will presumably be paying the SAA virtually nothing on their passengers whereas Aer Lingus was paying the full charges.
On another note Aer Lingus have axed bookings on Shannon-Dublin from March. Presumably as a result of Ryanair entering the route.
As for the outrageous comment that Cork receives handouts that simply isn't true. Unlike Shannon, Cork has never received handouts.

[840]

Shannon-Dublin flights are operated by aircraft flying transatlantic. From next year there will be separate flights from Shannon and Dublin to New York and Boston. Only Chicago services will serve both Shannon and Dublin airports.

Presumably, for one service a day, it's not worth the hassle, especially when it's a problem for immigration pre-clearance etc. to have passengers on the aircraft who have not pre-cleared US immigration.

[Aisle2c]

Originally Posted by Angry Rebel

They are doing the same to Cork by trying to sell a landbank to pay for the debt, a landbank which will be essential for expansion in future years.

I heard a great phrase for what the DAA are doing with the old Aer Rianta assests. It's called "Asset Rape".

[Rallye EI-BFP]

SNN-TFS will operate next summer. It has yet to be loaded into the schedule though (along with a few other routes). It makes much more sense to operate a popular bucket and spade route during the summer when loads and yields would be highest...

[vkid]

Does anyone really believe if Bertie, Noel etc knew earlier what EI were doing in relation to the SNN/LHR service the decision taken would have changed?

Thats not the point though, someone seems to have kept it quiet which has reduced the time by nearly two months that SNN could have been working on replacements. With recent revelations its kind of looking like it was kept that way..quiet.

There should be no more handouts to EINN, EICK. They will now have to compete in the real commercial world - and about time too.

And I agree, but if thats the case then take away control of both SNN and ORK from the DAA and let them compete on even terms. If Shannon fails in that scenario then so be it and the nay sayers can say I told you so but this seeemingly underhand way of doing business is unacceptable in this day and age.

[vkid]

Maybe when the Taoiseach's private secretary learned that Aer Lingus were cutting the route he thought:
"Okay, an airline is cutting a route. Happens everyday of the week. No big deal. I will not bother the Taoiseach with such a petty news item".

The private secretary thus having a normal reaction to the information, how could he predict the abnormal reaction it got from the Shannon bunch

An airline that they just "privatised" (but kept a big chunk off)..lol

[GELOFAB]

competition? what competition?

I don't understand, and don't agree, with your eager for competition btw irish airports.
In my opinion the road to go is right the opposite. Dublin Airport is the big fella making all the money? ok, so it be.

In return Dublin should subsidize ,at least, the other state airports that are non profitable.
To do this the Airport Authority should remain united and held all the Airports .The profitables and the ones tha could not make it.
This does not mean those airports in the red shall not to be audited or kept under financial control to avoid missuse or waste of those resources. No.
One thing is not contradictory with the other.
But as far as I know you all live in a country called Ireland, not Dublin. This kind of mentality to be competitive among each other I find it quite poor and short minded, and could end up in a simple solution.Closure or demotion of other Airports.

anybody wants that?

What could happened is that those other airports may have difficulty to survive (specially Airports like Shannon with a low catchment area)? who will suffer the consequences? the french?the germans? the italians? no: the irish citizens who have committed the sin to live outside the Dublin catchment area.
Anybody think that by NO subsidizing Shannon or Cork , passengers in Dublin will get a much better discount in their final fare or deal? Well if you think so let me laugh about that.
Anybody think the closure or downsizing of Shannon Airport will benefit the final fare of the dubliner flying to Brussels or Frankfurt??Allow me to laugh again please .

And if those Airports are not to survive...where is the mother of all principles, where is the sacred competition principle?? Who is going to compete against Dublin Airport?

Not everything in life has to be competition.

Co-operation and no competition is the key in this case ,to me at least.

Benefits for the whole country surpasses clearly the teorical increases in the final bill for the consumer flying out of Dublin.
And of course, again, the Airports being "subsidized" should be kept under strict financial control.

[eirbus06]

Dublin Airport is the big fella making all the money? ok, so it be.

Are you for real GELOFAB?

Aer Rianta has had control over ORK since they opened it and have done nothing but held it back.

What have they done in 40 years only add 1000ft to the runway.

1: By building it on top of a hill and no CAT 3 approach.
2: Keeping the runway under 7000ft when SNN's is 10500ft.
3:Building a terminal to cater for 5m pax and saying ORK pax will not have to pay and of coarse a U-turn to say ORK pax will have to pay.