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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 17th Jun 2017, 13:27
  #3741 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: london
Posts: 13
I was at the bottom for 5 years joining after 9/11 mate, so I know what life is like down there, did I moan about working every weekend or wonder why the guy next to me was about to take 100k pa pension? Or the general unfaireness of seniority? No. prob because I have stacked shelves before and loaded pallets in a stinking hot factory and seen life outside the BA bubble. A lot of new guys not all have had an easy life before flying and are used to getting what they want including bank of daddy giving them 100k to go get a job. That's what is really wrong with this profession. It's like those pay as you go formula one drivers, driving conditions down for the rest.
Stop acting like my kids when they don't get what they want.
thewisealderman is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 13:35
  #3742 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: london
Posts: 13
Just realised I posted this on a Saturday while at home! How insensitive of me.
thewisealderman is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 13:38
  #3743 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
You do realise you're not the first generation of "guys and girls with real families" to have gone through this (regardless of whether "this" is right or wrong), so please do at least credit some of us with the ability to understand " what's going on at the bottom" ...

Out of interest and for the sake of debate, since a lot of this recent argument has been about weekends can I ask what ratio of "weekends worked" to "weekends not worked" over a year would you find acceptable?

( By "weekend not worked" I mean neither the Saturday or the Sunday containing any duty period or element thereof)
I imangine your pension dulls the pain of having to "suffer" at the bottom, as did your P24 scale. We and the whole profession were sold down the river by you guys and to pretend otherwise is ridiculous. Your right this argument has been raging for generations but we are perhaps the first that don't feel like we have much to work for! I will never see top scale and my pension at best will a fraction of the NAPS. And all this to do the same job in a more expensive world, you must see why it's frustrating.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 13:46
  #3744 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,892
We and the whole profession were sold down the river by you guys
Yes I do see why it's frustrating but have to ask - by "you" in the above statement do you mean every single pilot at BA at the time who had a vote on the matter, or just those who negotiated the proposal that was put to the vote and those that voted for it?...
wiggy is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 14:19
  #3745 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Samsonite Avenue
Posts: 1,519
Shouldn't ones discontent be directed towards the union and your colleagues who represent it?

If you feel you have been 'sold down the river' by your senior peers, then consider who provided the boat for this to happen?

BTW - I am not in BA before anyone asks.
Mister Geezer is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 17:29
  #3746 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: England
Posts: 343
Hi all,

My 2 penneth for what it's worth.

I have now been in BA for just over 5 years and I am now on a long haul only fleet about 25% up from the bottom on my seniority list. The first couple of years with reserve were hard but you have to play the system the best you can.

I.e. Bid for a reserve block over a monthly boundary ( Jan into early Feb) you then get March off then bid late Apr into May etc. This way you will only do 4 reserves a year but you will also get 4 extra weeks off as well as the standard 6 weeks everyone else gets. Strategic bidding for your leave and duty free weeks may also mean several months free of reserve.

Also bid for reserve over Christmas thereby getting reserve points and Christmas points together with little chance of actually working Christmas Day.

I am now in trip line territory but usually only get something between my 20th and 30th choice. I try and get some weekends off and usually get about 50%, however this might be a Sat off one week and a Sun off the next. Of the 50% that I do work some of them will usually be an early finish on the Sat morning or a late/evening start on the Sun.

What I do enjoy though is some weekdays off to go to school plays, sports days, open evenings and take my son to swimming and help at his scouts etc which I couldn't do in a Monday to Friday 9-5 job.

Are there some crap bits? Yes certainly. BARP isn't great but a lot better than I got with Jet 2. I will never get to the top of pay point 34 even working to 65 but then I wouldn't have got to pay point 24 when you had to retire at 55. I am however getting paid a lot more than I ever did in the RAF with no chance of being send to PSAB or Bastion.

Swapping is very flexible so if you can't get a weekend off take your family with you. I recently did a sector swap to extend a Japan trip over half term so took my family to Tokyo and did the sights and Disney Sea for about 600. On short haul took the family on city breaks to Edinburgh and Athens etc.

BA is what it is and it is unlikely to change much for the better. I am enjoying it by taking full advantage of what is available. If you really hate it you need to move on. You're born and then you die, you need to enjoy the bit in the middle or what's the point,

Regards
binsleepen is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 19:40
  #3747 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by 2 Whites 2 Reds View Post
Absolutely I understand that struggling at the bottom is nothing especially new. However, I would argue that the decline in T's and C's in recent times has been sharper than ever and has meant that the current struggle is somewhat different to previous times.

I'm not referring to weekends off in my comments. Being a junior chap myself, I joined BA whole heartedly accepting that for the first few years working weekends, zero or very little roster control and working xmas was the norm. Anyone walking into such a large and complex seniority system has to either make peace with this concept or spend their first few years miserable trying to fight something they can't change. That being the case, I work the vast majority of weekends and personally don't have a big issue with it because I accept my place in the system. Sadly, the other recent changes have made life at the bottom tougher than ever both financially and lifestyle wise. Reserve every other month is not much fun I can tell you!
Go back to Ryanair then.
HidekiTojo is online now  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 21:39
  #3748 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 688
The comments made by some of the newer BA pilots on here are pretty good examples of the younger generation today I think. It is a generation of the "I not only want it all now, but I deserve it and am entitled to it!" You seem to think you have somehow been sold down the river by the more senior pilots. Are you talking about pensions? Have you heard of APS? Most of the more senior pilots in BA are merely on NAPS. Presumably they got sold down the river by their more senior colleagues at some point? Yet for you guys this is something new that is just happening to you? Have you ever heard of guys doing just 500 hours flying a year? The senior guys aren't doing that now. (In fact they are likely doing considerably more than you if you are doing reserve every other month). But they never got sold down the river - it is just you guys joining now. You really do sound like teenagers who believe that their parents were never teenagers and just don't know what it is like. I recommend you try reflecting on the career you have, and how lucky you are to have it. Imagine being Mixed Fleet cabin crew as opposed to their WW or Eurofleet colleagues! You're so lucky to have the terms and conditions you currently have, and I guarantee they will be half what they are now by the time you retire.

Yes, it is true that BA pilots have always voted the way their union has recommended. I and many others, have almost always voted against that recommendation. It is why I have finally left BALPA, but if you have a problem with any of the terms and conditions changes of the past decade or two, why don't you take it up with BA or BALPA? I think it is highly unfair to blame your collegaues for simply majority voting the way their union recommended.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 17th Jun 2017, 23:34
  #3749 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: london
Posts: 13
You summed it up nicely there.
thewisealderman is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 08:21
  #3750 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 195
You summed it up poorly there.
Right Engine is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 08:40
  #3751 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
What a typically arrogant and condescending post! Over the course of my working career I will earn hundreds of thousands less than a PP24 (a scale I knew nothing about untill joining BA), if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it. Furthermore why is it perfectly acceptable for some to shake every penny out of the BA money tree but for anyone joining over the last few years we should simply be happy to be employed?But hey providing you are all Ok we will keep our "petulant" teenage mouths shut!
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 09:13
  #3752 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 379
if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it.
Because BA think that's what you're worth - and the fact that people are still applying shows the market is seemingly prepared to accept it.

I don't think you'll find a single current BA pilot who likes that as it inevitably puts pressure on those on better rates.

Let me paraphrase your statement and return it to you.

If you can give me one articulate reason as to how current "A" scalers could retain those rates for all future joiners, then I would be interested to hear it.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 09:37
  #3753 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 180
I recommend you try reflecting on the career you have, and how lucky you are to have it.
Again, in a nutshell, a big part of what's wrong with this industry. Sounds very "management" to me: you should be bloody grateful that we have deigned to give you a job, so shut up and row harder.

As long as people are prepared to accept B, C and D (and presumably E, F and G) scale packages, Ts&Cs are only going to go one way. Seniority is a big part of the problem: it traps people and prevents them from efficiently taking their skills elsewhere, thereby applying downwards pressure on Ts&Cs. From a management perspective, why would they offer improved conditions, or even keep conditions the same if: a) people will continue to apply regardless, and b) nobody will leave anyway because they're trapped by seniority?
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Old 18th Jun 2017, 09:42
  #3754 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
This argument could go round in circles forever and it's not worth anyone's time doing that. My real point is this, I don't blame people for voting the way they did ultimately it would take an act of extreme generosity to give up your own terms and conditions to protect those of a bunch of people you have never met, I get that! But the union is supposed to be their to protect the industry not just a small group of select pilots. The futures of every single new pilot should never have been used as a bargaining chip in negotiations to protect the rights of a few. It was ultimately a very self serving thing to do from all involved which has ultimately devalued your own jobs as well as everyone else's. As I said I understand the reasons for voting that way and I doubt I would have done any different, but don't now pretend like we have nothing to complain about, you made a decision based on selfish reasons at least now have the balls to own that decision and not slag us off because we dared to question it. BA now has an A scale and a B scale and I find it hard to reconcile getting paid a lot less than other people to do the same job you may disagree and that is of course your right, but please don't call me a petulant child because I deared to highlight the injustice.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 09:46
  #3755 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: liverpool
Posts: 15
I must say I'm pretty shocked reading some of this, this must be unprecedented, seeing this much anger directed at BA.


I'm getting the feeling, from the tone on here and chit chat I hear down route, that maybe some people shouldn't have left commands (or imminent command) at other, often perfectly good and respectable airlines to chase the BA dream. I was tempted myself for a while but then thought better of it! - I remembered the lessons I learned from older boys and girls - get your command and stay in that seat! I mean this in the nicest possible way, but maybe some of these guys should have gone off to the Middle East as DEC's if they really wanted the long haul 'dream'.
coalencanth is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 10:54
  #3756 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: England
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by Enzo999 View Post
What a typically arrogant and condescending post! Over the course of my working career I will earn hundreds of thousands less than a PP24 (a scale I knew nothing about untill joining BA), if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers then I would be interested to here it. Furthermore why is it perfectly acceptable for some to shake every penny out of the BA money tree but for anyone joining over the last few years we should simply be happy to be employed?But hey providing you are all Ok we will keep our "petulant" teenage mouths shut!
I'm astonished that you managed to research, interview and be offered a job at BA without ever coming across PP24/34. It suggests to me that your level of due dilligence before joining was somewhere between lacking and unjustifiably

I write this as a relatively new joiner. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is life here pretty much exactly as I expected it to be, both good and bad? Yes. Next time do your research.
Angels 99 is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 11:18
  #3757 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
Another amazigly condescending post, somehow in all my preparation for interview I forgot to research historic pay scales, forgive me it's amazing they even offered me a job with such lack of prep. And what do you mean "next time"? You mean next time I interview for BA? All I am trying to say is that I am entitled to a view point without being called a petulant child or being spoken down to like a naughty teenager, wether you agree or not. End of my conversation on the subject!

Last edited by Enzo999; 18th Jun 2017 at 16:55.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 11:39
  #3758 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: london
Posts: 13
I think you will go through your career bitter and twisted. Time to get another job
thewisealderman is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 12:01
  #3759 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 134
Like the majority of pilots
Snapper5 is offline  
Old 18th Jun 2017, 15:08
  #3760 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 864
Back onto the topic of recruitment I heard of a Flybe guy being hooked out of the hold pool recently and given a start date for a 777 course? Again something to please all the unfrozen guys & gals on the bus!
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