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Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 20th Jun 2017, 09:31
  #3781 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by Enzo999 View Post
if you can give me one articulate reason as to why we are worth that much less than "A" scalers
Apparently there has been no shortage of applicants, many of whom would take a job with BA for much less pay - and irrespective of bidding / roster details.

We live in a world where P2F dictates the entry point for pilots and BA competes with both low-cost airlines and the ME carriers.

The pay and conditions for all of us has deteriorated relative to previous generations and the votes (arguably poorly managed and/or presented admittedly) which have led to a different pension scheme and starter rates were simply unavoidable. Those of us who have been with the airline for many years have seen some tough times and campaigned hard for the best T&Cs possible so to hear such negativity from those who've just joined is a little sad at best.
You really cannot blame the "senior" pilots for the interminable race to the bottom in the airline industry. In fact, i'd argue that the reverse is true!
Had BA pilots not shown a pragmatic approach and been willing to accept change would BA have been in a position to recruit onto the mainline seniority list.
And the argument holds true that if you've just joined without knowledge of BLR's and T&Cs, and are very disappointed, then now is the time to leave before becoming truly embittered.
The Blu Riband is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 09:36
  #3782 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.
Any evidence? With P2F, lowcost and ME airlines threatening pay and job security I suggest the majority of pilots would much prefer the seniority system to some vague meritocracy based on............ what exactly.

What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that!
The Blu Riband is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 09:49
  #3783 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: london
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by SR71 View Post
Its also worth bearing in mind the environment the "new guys" operate in these days.

I'm closer to 50 than 40. Bought my first house for ~55K in the 90's when my starting salary was ~35K.

Ratio: 0.63

Scale that upwards to today where the average cost of housing in my postcode is now ~740K.

I ought to be making 466K if my earnings had kept pace with house price inflation.

How much would I need in my pension pot to get what the retired 777 BA pilot opposite me gets...as a pension? 3million perhaps?

Many of the Senior guys in my Company argue "they've been there, done that" but, making a gross generalisation, the Golden Years of aviation are no longer so golden.

Many of them also say they know what it was like to be made redundant. But when pressed, their redundancy experience lasted days, and a quick phone call had them walking into another job, in some cases, on the same day as their redundancy!

I've been redundant 3 times in my career and during the last experience which lasted 7 months, had to look as far afield as China in an attempt to try and get a job.

Having said all that, I'm happy with my lot, but the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.
Welcome to the layer cake son
thewisealderman is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 10:18
  #3784 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 317
I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.

It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.

After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.

It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.

Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.

I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.

No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.

Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.

BA is what you make it! Think about it.
Desk-pilot is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 10:47
  #3785 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by Desk-pilot View Post
I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.

It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.

After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.

It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.

Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.

I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.

No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.

Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.

BA is what you make it! Think about it.

DP
That's all very nice but unfortunately never paying my mortgage is not really an option for me. Also I aspire to slightly more than just jumping off a cliff come my 65th birthday. If part time works for you then then great but for many it won't be an option.

Last edited by Enzo999; 20th Jun 2017 at 11:05.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 11:03
  #3786 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by BitMoreRightRudder View Post
Fair enough Enzo.

You say you understand the reasons we voted for PP34. If that is the case, please tell me what the alternative was. And what would have happened next had we voted the other way.
I would imagine had you voted the other way IAG might have only made 1.4 billion profit, a disaster for all concerned! As I said previously it's the union (if you can call it that) I have real issues with.
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 11:10
  #3787 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 317
It might not be for everyone but there are options. I took the decision years ago to hold on to the house (4 bed detached 650k) despite not having the level of income required to support it when I left a well paid IT career to fly. That meant an interest only mortgage, even adding to the mortgage during the lean years.

I think on balance with the rise in property prices that's been a sensible decision. If I'd moved to a smaller property in order to remain on a repayment mortgage or even sold up to pay for Oxford in cash I'd be unable to afford such a house now even on a full time BA salary given the ludicrous house prices in the South East. If I never pay another penny off it I could still sell up and buy a decent home outside the South East with the 300k+ of equity.

The point is when you have kids you only get one shot at being there for them and you only get one shot at life. Spending your whole time at work to acquire wealth you may never spend is futile.

I'm certainly not suggesting that I have all the answers, just that many many people spend their whole life maximising their earnings and miss what's important and what makes them happy whoever you work for. I have a Brother in law who is a very successful corporate coach - one of the things he said to me is that people spend more time thinking about which new sofa to buy or what TV or car to get than really thinking about what makes them happy in life and how they might achieve it.

I'm only seeking to give a different approach to the 'must earn as much as I can' model. If I'd wanted to be rich I would have stayed in IT but I'm very very glad I didn't! I'd be sitting in a stuffy office right now writing project plans instead of sitting by a pool!
Desk-pilot is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 12:16
  #3788 (permalink)  

Mach 3
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Any evidence? With P2F, lowcost and ME airlines threatening pay and job security I suggest the majority of pilots would much prefer the seniority system to some vague meritocracy based on............ what exactly.

What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that!
Any evidence?

You didn't read my post did you?

I'm happy with my lot but not the system. At the point I'm not, I'll jump... There's some good perspective on this thread.

But I'd take my chances any day with a meritocracy or a "meet the requirement" paradigm. I've no idea why pilots think they're a special case in this respect. None of the "pro" arguments advanced are unique to the industry. But then again, if you'd not worked in another Sector, you wouldn't know would you....
SR71 is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 12:31
  #3789 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 379
All seniority in BA gets you is the opportunity to change fleets/seats when your number comes up. You still have to pass - and a number don't.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 13:25
  #3790 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: somewhere in the middle
Posts: 256
Did we decide if the Lifeguard is back on duty, yanking people out of the pool, or was it just un poisson rouge?
thetimesreader84 is online now  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 15:43
  #3791 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Timba Hold
Posts: 69
Will be very interesting if they've given out some 777 dates after last months email!
MikeAlpha320 is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:28
  #3792 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Apogee
Posts: 9
Is there any more information or are we stuck with 2 word answers?
bobbyboblington is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:37
  #3793 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
To be fair I already posted this a couple of pages ago and someone else from Flybe has backed me up so I didn't really see the need to expand any more.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 16:59
  #3794 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Sand free now
Posts: 193
Originally Posted by HidekiTojo View Post
Where pays more? Emirates? Jet2.com? TCX? Norwegian? Ryanair? Easy? the BA package is extremely well publicised and the competition to get a job here is intense. not making excuses for the fall in T&C's but making out like BA is some kind of internment camp is 100% false. it appears that many new joiners are happy to come on here and complain about a job they've been in for only a couple of years, they are probably the same people congratulating themselves on instagram immediately upon starting the job.
You truly are a bit of a wally. Strike Norwegian and add Monarch and you are on track. Like others have mentioned I would have had to take a pay drop to come to BA. Some newish joiners have made very reasonable comments about life at BA but I do not believe any have said anything that infers it is an internment camp. Quite the opposite. These are not spotty newbies. Many are very experienced pilots who have built hours and experience elsewhere and to be treated to your brand of arrogance is a tad annoying.
JaxofMarlow is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 17:15
  #3795 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 180
Where pays more? Emirates? Jet2.com? TCX? Norwegian? Ryanair? Easy?
I'm at one of those (and used to be at another) and BA would be an absolute monster hit in terms of financial package.
akindofmagic is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 17:40
  #3796 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 326
Originally Posted by JaxofMarlow View Post
You truly are a bit of a wally.
Please clarify.
Are you comparing starter salaries, or top end captain salaries?
How does a 10 yr BA SH capt compare to 10 yr at Easy or Ryanair?


Why would a relatively senior "Lowcost" capt want to go to BA anyway?
BA is a good choice for most youngish or junior pilots - but was never an obvious career move for established people, even 10-20 years ago!

Genuine questions!
The Blu Riband is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 17:54
  #3797 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: England
Posts: 180
I think that the pull of long haul is still very strong for a lot of people in the same boat as me (although not me personally) i.e. young-ish short haul captains.

However, with the current exchange rate I net 8000 per month, I'm part time, with a comparatively very good pension. The maths doesn't stack up for me with BA, but (perhaps fortunately) I've never had to make the decision of whether to leave and go to BA!
akindofmagic is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 18:20
  #3798 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 98
Obviously comparing a time served captains package to a year 1 BA FO is stupid and by doing so you allow us all to see that you are pretty stupid. The point you completely miss is that a pilot joining BA makes that decision for themselves and all the required information is readily available so if you are unhappy you only have one person to blame.

Insulting me only confirms that what I say has some truth to it.

Desk pilot gave a great example of how BA offers a whole host of options for pilots to make the job work for them. If you can't make the most of it then again you only have one person to blame or it simply isn't the right job for you so you should leave. All the other airlines are hiring so what is your Excuse?

T&Cs well BA pilots are probably the most represented bunch around so if not already join balpa and fight for your oh so much deserved improvements there Mr year 2 BA first officer.
HidekiTojo is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 18:23
  #3799 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: somewhere in the middle
Posts: 256
Not wanting to distract from the "is BA better than a LoCo" debate (answer; it depends), can we get back to the awarding of a 777 course? Is this just a one off (i.e. BA were running a 777 course anyway, and had a gap to fill) or is it the start of something a bit bigger?
thetimesreader84 is online now  
Old 20th Jun 2017, 18:50
  #3800 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Apogee
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
To be fair I already posted this a couple of pages ago and someone else from Flybe has backed me up so I didn't really see the need to expand any more.
Fair enough, apologies I missed that in the thread.
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