BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 351
Likes: 9
From: uk
What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14
Likes: 2
From: london
Its also worth bearing in mind the environment the "new guys" operate in these days.
I'm closer to 50 than 40. Bought my first house for ~£55K in the 90's when my starting salary was ~£35K.
Ratio: 0.63
Scale that upwards to today where the average cost of housing in my postcode is now ~£740K.
I ought to be making £466K if my earnings had kept pace with house price inflation.
How much would I need in my pension pot to get what the retired 777 BA pilot opposite me gets...as a pension? £3million perhaps?
Many of the Senior guys in my Company argue "they've been there, done that" but, making a gross generalisation, the Golden Years of aviation are no longer so golden.
Many of them also say they know what it was like to be made redundant. But when pressed, their redundancy experience lasted days, and a quick phone call had them walking into another job, in some cases, on the same day as their redundancy!
I've been redundant 3 times in my career and during the last experience which lasted 7 months, had to look as far afield as China in an attempt to try and get a job.
Having said all that, I'm happy with my lot, but the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.
I'm closer to 50 than 40. Bought my first house for ~£55K in the 90's when my starting salary was ~£35K.
Ratio: 0.63
Scale that upwards to today where the average cost of housing in my postcode is now ~£740K.
I ought to be making £466K if my earnings had kept pace with house price inflation.
How much would I need in my pension pot to get what the retired 777 BA pilot opposite me gets...as a pension? £3million perhaps?
Many of the Senior guys in my Company argue "they've been there, done that" but, making a gross generalisation, the Golden Years of aviation are no longer so golden.
Many of them also say they know what it was like to be made redundant. But when pressed, their redundancy experience lasted days, and a quick phone call had them walking into another job, in some cases, on the same day as their redundancy!
I've been redundant 3 times in my career and during the last experience which lasted 7 months, had to look as far afield as China in an attempt to try and get a job.
Having said all that, I'm happy with my lot, but the arguments for seniority in this day and age, I no longer have any sympathy for. They're a relic of a bygone age where you worked for one airline for the duration of your career and, IMO, dramatically hold down terms and conditions.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: UK
I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.
It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.
After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.
It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.
Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.
I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.
No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.
Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.
BA is what you make it! Think about it.
It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.
After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.
It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.
Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.
I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.
No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.
Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.
BA is what you make it! Think about it.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: London
I'm a recent joiner (20 months) from a well known regional - I'm also 48 and have a 12 year old daughter.
It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.
After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.
It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.
Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.
I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.
No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.
Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.
BA is what you make it! Think about it.
DP
It has been my ambition to fly for BA from the age of 6 and I've suffered all sorts of challenges along the way to get here including years as a turboprop FO, funding my training and ending up with a mortgage I may never pay off. While I worked a proportion of weekends in my previous airline the big difference I found when coming to BA was that I was not just working an early shift and coming home for bike rides and dinner with the family but was being sent away on a Thursday to tour Europe and coming home on Monday to sit at home in the house by myself until Thursday when I went back to work.
After 14 consecutive weekends like this last year and feeling that my daughter in particular was growing up without me I decided to find a way to make BA work for me. A very nice ex BMI skipper I was flying with said to me one day he felt exactly like I did until he went part time so took his advice and went 75%.
It's made a massive difference to my family life, my happiness and my enjoyment of the job. I now earn about what I was earning at my previous employer but work a lot less days.
Due to the 40% tax band, NI, less wear and tear on the car, less shoe leather I'm not out of pocket by that much and its a no-brainer. I'm now guaranteed a weekend off every month plus time around it to pursue hobbies.
I don't blame the guys who came before me on the better terms and conditions - they were given their contract and I accepted mine. I get to stay in some interesting places in great hotels, I'm paid pretty well for a guy who does 12 days work a month and I've met some fab people and my guitar playing is coming along a treat. Overall I'm just happy to be here.
No amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth is going to change BA, you've got to come here, embrace it and make it work for you and your family.
Right enough from me! I'm on a layover somewhere hot with a pool and I'd better get down there for a swim. I'm flying back tomorrow morning, should be home by lunchtime to see my daughter come in from school and then I'm into nine days of part time week.
BA is what you make it! Think about it.
DP
Last edited by Enzo999; 20th June 2017 at 11:05.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: London
I would imagine had you voted the other way IAG might have only made £1.4 billion profit, a disaster for all concerned! As I said previously it's the union (if you can call it that) I have real issues with.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: UK
It might not be for everyone but there are options. I took the decision years ago to hold on to the house (4 bed detached £650k) despite not having the level of income required to support it when I left a well paid IT career to fly. That meant an interest only mortgage, even adding to the mortgage during the lean years.
I think on balance with the rise in property prices that's been a sensible decision. If I'd moved to a smaller property in order to remain on a repayment mortgage or even sold up to pay for Oxford in cash I'd be unable to afford such a house now even on a full time BA salary given the ludicrous house prices in the South East. If I never pay another penny off it I could still sell up and buy a decent home outside the South East with the £300k+ of equity.
The point is when you have kids you only get one shot at being there for them and you only get one shot at life. Spending your whole time at work to acquire wealth you may never spend is futile.
I'm certainly not suggesting that I have all the answers, just that many many people spend their whole life maximising their earnings and miss what's important and what makes them happy whoever you work for. I have a Brother in law who is a very successful corporate coach - one of the things he said to me is that people spend more time thinking about which new sofa to buy or what TV or car to get than really thinking about what makes them happy in life and how they might achieve it.
I'm only seeking to give a different approach to the 'must earn as much as I can' model. If I'd wanted to be rich I would have stayed in IT but I'm very very glad I didn't! I'd be sitting in a stuffy office right now writing project plans instead of sitting by a pool!
I think on balance with the rise in property prices that's been a sensible decision. If I'd moved to a smaller property in order to remain on a repayment mortgage or even sold up to pay for Oxford in cash I'd be unable to afford such a house now even on a full time BA salary given the ludicrous house prices in the South East. If I never pay another penny off it I could still sell up and buy a decent home outside the South East with the £300k+ of equity.
The point is when you have kids you only get one shot at being there for them and you only get one shot at life. Spending your whole time at work to acquire wealth you may never spend is futile.
I'm certainly not suggesting that I have all the answers, just that many many people spend their whole life maximising their earnings and miss what's important and what makes them happy whoever you work for. I have a Brother in law who is a very successful corporate coach - one of the things he said to me is that people spend more time thinking about which new sofa to buy or what TV or car to get than really thinking about what makes them happy in life and how they might achieve it.
I'm only seeking to give a different approach to the 'must earn as much as I can' model. If I'd wanted to be rich I would have stayed in IT but I'm very very glad I didn't! I'd be sitting in a stuffy office right now writing project plans instead of sitting by a pool!
Mach 3
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 624
Likes: 1
From: Stratosphere
Any evidence? With P2F, lowcost and ME airlines threatening pay and job security I suggest the majority of pilots would much prefer the seniority system to some vague meritocracy based on............ what exactly.
What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that!
What you really wanted was a DEC with a decent company on good pay. Have you considered Norwegian? Good luck with that!
You didn't read my post did you?
I'm happy with my lot but not the system. At the point I'm not, I'll jump... There's some good perspective on this thread.
But I'd take my chances any day with a meritocracy or a "meet the requirement" paradigm. I've no idea why pilots think they're a special case in this respect. None of the "pro" arguments advanced are unique to the industry. But then again, if you'd not worked in another Sector, you wouldn't know would you....
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 193
Likes: 1
From: Sand free now
Where pays more? Emirates? Jet2.com? TCX? Norwegian? Ryanair? Easy? the BA package is extremely well publicised and the competition to get a job here is intense. not making excuses for the fall in T&C's but making out like BA is some kind of internment camp is 100% false. it appears that many new joiners are happy to come on here and complain about a job they've been in for only a couple of years, they are probably the same people congratulating themselves on instagram immediately upon starting the job.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 351
Likes: 9
From: uk
Please clarify.
Are you comparing starter salaries, or top end captain salaries?
How does a 10 yr BA SH capt compare to 10 yr at Easy or Ryanair?
Why would a relatively senior "Lowcost" capt want to go to BA anyway?
BA is a good choice for most youngish or junior pilots - but was never an obvious career move for established people, even 10-20 years ago!
Genuine questions!
Are you comparing starter salaries, or top end captain salaries?
How does a 10 yr BA SH capt compare to 10 yr at Easy or Ryanair?
Why would a relatively senior "Lowcost" capt want to go to BA anyway?
BA is a good choice for most youngish or junior pilots - but was never an obvious career move for established people, even 10-20 years ago!
Genuine questions!
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
From: England
I think that the pull of long haul is still very strong for a lot of people in the same boat as me (although not me personally) i.e. young-ish short haul captains.
However, with the current exchange rate I net £8000 per month, I'm part time, with a comparatively very good pension. The maths doesn't stack up for me with BA, but (perhaps fortunately) I've never had to make the decision of whether to leave and go to BA!
However, with the current exchange rate I net £8000 per month, I'm part time, with a comparatively very good pension. The maths doesn't stack up for me with BA, but (perhaps fortunately) I've never had to make the decision of whether to leave and go to BA!
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
From: South East
Obviously comparing a time served captains package to a year 1 BA FO is stupid and by doing so you allow us all to see that you are pretty stupid. The point you completely miss is that a pilot joining BA makes that decision for themselves and all the required information is readily available so if you are unhappy you only have one person to blame.
Insulting me only confirms that what I say has some truth to it.
Desk pilot gave a great example of how BA offers a whole host of options for pilots to make the job work for them. If you can't make the most of it then again you only have one person to blame or it simply isn't the right job for you so you should leave. All the other airlines are hiring so what is your Excuse?
T&Cs well BA pilots are probably the most represented bunch around so if not already join balpa and fight for your oh so much deserved improvements there Mr year 2 BA first officer.
Insulting me only confirms that what I say has some truth to it.
Desk pilot gave a great example of how BA offers a whole host of options for pilots to make the job work for them. If you can't make the most of it then again you only have one person to blame or it simply isn't the right job for you so you should leave. All the other airlines are hiring so what is your Excuse?
T&Cs well BA pilots are probably the most represented bunch around so if not already join balpa and fight for your oh so much deserved improvements there Mr year 2 BA first officer.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 336
Likes: 3
From: somewhere in the middle
Not wanting to distract from the "is BA better than a LoCo" debate (answer; it depends), can we get back to the awarding of a 777 course? Is this just a one off (i.e. BA were running a 777 course anyway, and had a gap to fill) or is it the start of something a bit bigger?
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Apogee
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: England
777 Course
Sorry to be the party pooper but I've just read on the BA Yammer Pilot Recruitment & FPP page that NS has confirmed that the 777 course rumour is NOT true.
Stay positive tho as I'm sure it won't be too long before things move again.
Stay positive tho as I'm sure it won't be too long before things move again.