BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Just to offer an extra opinion from an insider.... joined a a year or so ago on LH and get an average of 4 trips a month equating to around 10-12 nights out of bed a month.
Really enjoying the job and I personally think BA is a good employer....and whilst Im tired at the end of a trip, it pales in comparison to the fatigue I had at my previous LOCO. Theres certainly no way Id be handing my notice in to go back to it as someone mentioned above.
Horses for courses.
Really enjoying the job and I personally think BA is a good employer....and whilst Im tired at the end of a trip, it pales in comparison to the fatigue I had at my previous LOCO. Theres certainly no way Id be handing my notice in to go back to it as someone mentioned above.
Horses for courses.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 365
Point of order:
Duty Free Weeks (for a full-time pilot) are 2 x 7 day blocks plus a non-assignable day so up to sixteen days off annually, one DFW per season.
This gives a total of 42 leave/DFW days per year plus two Non-assignable days (with DFW) and four "wrap days" per week of leave. Overall, 60 days off associated with leave or DFW. All DFW and leave days have credit hours attached (a matter of opinion whether you consider this credit to be sufficient - most don't), NA and wrap days do not.
10 lieu days (for missed bank holidays) or as we call them 2 x Duty Free Weeks.
This gives a total of 42 leave/DFW days per year plus two Non-assignable days (with DFW) and four "wrap days" per week of leave. Overall, 60 days off associated with leave or DFW. All DFW and leave days have credit hours attached (a matter of opinion whether you consider this credit to be sufficient - most don't), NA and wrap days do not.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: London
Posts: 17
Shabon - 10 to 12 nights a month out of your own bed or 10 to 12 nights a month out of any bed? I assume (and hope!) not the latter?
I was one of the aforementioned LH FOs who joined BA last year and then went back to my loco origins. I'm a lot less tired being back at my loco but that's just because I couldn't stand the LH lifestyle of trying to sleep at times my body didn't want to. We're all different and only those that try it can say whether it's for them or not.
I was one of the aforementioned LH FOs who joined BA last year and then went back to my loco origins. I'm a lot less tired being back at my loco but that's just because I couldn't stand the LH lifestyle of trying to sleep at times my body didn't want to. We're all different and only those that try it can say whether it's for them or not.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: somewhere in the middle
Posts: 211
From reading prune & talking to friends, it does seem BA is "a tale of two airlines"; those on Long Haul who love it, spend 1 week - 10 days away from home each month, get to see the world and love it, and those on Short Haul, who are bouncing off duty hours limits, spending more time in hotels than at home, building fatigue and generally getting the brown end of the stick (their words - not mine!) from senior management.
Not that much of this matters, as we stare at our respective hold pool exits approaching, hearing rumours of unpaid leave, over crewing, delayed courses for cadets etc. It does leave a bit of a sour taste having put a hell of a lot of work in to get into the pool, only for radio silence... Would it stop me re applying? Probably not, which I guess says a lot.
Anyone know if a hold pool update is scheduled?
Not that much of this matters, as we stare at our respective hold pool exits approaching, hearing rumours of unpaid leave, over crewing, delayed courses for cadets etc. It does leave a bit of a sour taste having put a hell of a lot of work in to get into the pool, only for radio silence... Would it stop me re applying? Probably not, which I guess says a lot.
Anyone know if a hold pool update is scheduled?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,532
As has been said horses for courses..when Concorde was grounded temporarily the pilots got briefly redeployed to other Fleets. There were a few who admitted to struggling with the increased need for nights out of bed and were relatively relieved when they could return to the supersonic fleet....also in more benevolent times there were pilots who crossed over from Short Haul, struggled with the roster pattern, and were allowed to return on medical grounds to their short haul fleet. No criticism is intended of either of the above groups, simply pointing out that with the best will in the world some really struggle with the Long Haul roster pattern.
To add to the "nights" out of bed discussion,...easy to end up with 5 "short" long haul trips (e.g. JFK, ORD, The Gulf ) in a month...assume just about every Longhaul out and back trip has one overnight sector, (though a few have none by way of balance some have night sectors both ways) and also at least one night in a hotel.....there's your ten nights away from home...and that's probably about the least you can do in a full month.
As far as the other discussion about T&Cs..are they as good as they were? No.
Will they stay at the current level? No.
Is the rate of "decay" in T&Cs going to increase or decrease? Your guess is as good as mine.
To add to the "nights" out of bed discussion,...easy to end up with 5 "short" long haul trips (e.g. JFK, ORD, The Gulf ) in a month...assume just about every Longhaul out and back trip has one overnight sector, (though a few have none by way of balance some have night sectors both ways) and also at least one night in a hotel.....there's your ten nights away from home...and that's probably about the least you can do in a full month.
As far as the other discussion about T&Cs..are they as good as they were? No.
Will they stay at the current level? No.
Is the rate of "decay" in T&Cs going to increase or decrease? Your guess is as good as mine.
Last edited by wiggy; 26th Apr 2017 at 09:59.
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 11
Originally Posted by tommytailwind
Shabon - 10 to 12 nights a month out of your own bed or 10 to 12 nights a month out of any bed? I assume (and hope!) not the latter?
I was one of the aforementioned LH FOs who joined BA last year and then went back to my loco origins. I'm a lot less tired being back at my loco but that's just because I couldn't stand the LH lifestyle of trying to sleep at times my body didn't want to. We're all different and only those that try it can say whether it's for them or not.
I was one of the aforementioned LH FOs who joined BA last year and then went back to my loco origins. I'm a lot less tired being back at my loco but that's just because I couldn't stand the LH lifestyle of trying to sleep at times my body didn't want to. We're all different and only those that try it can say whether it's for them or not.
Glad you've made it back to where you prefer! All the best
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by thetimesreader84
those on Long Haul who love it, spend 1 week - 10 days away from home each month, ?
Min trip length generally 3 days. On my fleet usually 3-4 day trips. Usually 5 ish, sometimes almost 6 trips on a busy month without leave depending on stacks of variables. Arriving back home before lunch on day 3 isn't a really free day, certainly doesn't feel like it (unless your superman) as you normally have to hit the hay to make it through to the eve.
Best bet is to live near so you don't have to travel in night before on a morning report. But near to T5 in London terms is living in T3
.On leave free months, seems to work average out in region of 11-14 days off a month/ usefully at home (presuming you don't travel to near lhr night before work). Those days off are split into little bits between trips.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,532
Wireless
This sometimes comes over as a pot half full/half empty argument but in my book any day involving work is a working day!
Three day trip - Report time on day one can often leave you no useful time at all at home pre going to work (and FWIW even Longhaul has some pre 0800 local reports), day two you are obviously (?) away, and even if you get in early on day three by the time you have probably/possibly caught up on sleep after your "nightshift" it can often be pretty much be a "dead" day. Multiply it up (worse case) by perhaps 5 or even 6 trips a month and see what's left of the month.
This sometimes comes over as a pot half full/half empty argument but in my book any day involving work is a working day!
Three day trip - Report time on day one can often leave you no useful time at all at home pre going to work (and FWIW even Longhaul has some pre 0800 local reports), day two you are obviously (?) away, and even if you get in early on day three by the time you have probably/possibly caught up on sleep after your "nightshift" it can often be pretty much be a "dead" day. Multiply it up (worse case) by perhaps 5 or even 6 trips a month and see what's left of the month.
Last edited by wiggy; 26th Apr 2017 at 15:20.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Yeah, I agree.
For me it isn't a pot half/full empty thing it's more basic fact of life. No such thing as a free lunch.
I think of it this way. There is a reason you're arriving into LHR at 0900. That is you've missed that night in bed. Nothing in life is free as they say. All you've done is deferred what you should've been doing that night, on your trip, to doing into on your time off - sleeping.
So when you go arrive back home, you could power through. I find it just consists of dribbling in a corner feeling quite unwell and then passing out with your dinner on the floor ;-). So you go to sleep, wake up feeling drugged then sleep that night, normally like a corpse.
Keeping in mind 2 days later (1.5 if you travel night before) you're meant to have tried to recover what you lost on that last overnight, plus be rested to go back to starting in the morning. If you don't try to get it back you're travelling down the highway to burnout town pretty quickly :-)
Also, when I say useful day at home, day 3 of a trip can be quite a problematic half day at home depending how you handle it / partner's sympathy to Mr Dead, corpse like state etc.
For me it isn't a pot half/full empty thing it's more basic fact of life. No such thing as a free lunch.
I think of it this way. There is a reason you're arriving into LHR at 0900. That is you've missed that night in bed. Nothing in life is free as they say. All you've done is deferred what you should've been doing that night, on your trip, to doing into on your time off - sleeping.
So when you go arrive back home, you could power through. I find it just consists of dribbling in a corner feeling quite unwell and then passing out with your dinner on the floor ;-). So you go to sleep, wake up feeling drugged then sleep that night, normally like a corpse.
Keeping in mind 2 days later (1.5 if you travel night before) you're meant to have tried to recover what you lost on that last overnight, plus be rested to go back to starting in the morning. If you don't try to get it back you're travelling down the highway to burnout town pretty quickly :-)
Also, when I say useful day at home, day 3 of a trip can be quite a problematic half day at home depending how you handle it / partner's sympathy to Mr Dead, corpse like state etc.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,532
Also, when I say useful day at home, day 3 of a trip can be quite a problematic half day at home depending how you handle it / partner's sympathy to Mr Dead, corpse like state etc.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 316
Originally Posted by wiggy
Oh it's not just me then....
Day 1 off is "being single immediate threat over/it's ok really, just have a small bit of washing and some chores" day.
Day 2 off is....." more chores/ oh not that bloody suitcase again [insert location of where you live]" day
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,532
Can someone who knows what's what say roughly how widespread this unpaid leave offer is.
Has it been offered to all fleets?
Has it been offered to all fleets?
The 900 hour'ish Longhaulers are separate issue and I'm sure will be dealt with as per the usual longstanding procedure ( i.e. via the monthly bid process by to some extent limiting trip selection), rather than standing down targetted indviduals as part of an unpaid leave process.
Last edited by wiggy; 30th Apr 2017 at 13:00.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 148
With any luck we will be allowed to remain in the pool until there is a requirement. It's not in BA's interest to make us do it all again.
To be fair, the plan changes very quickly so what's happening now doesn't guarantee what's going to happen next year.
Last year there was unpaid voluntary leave offered on short haul. DEP's joined in Jan/Feb. Go figure.
To be fair, the plan changes very quickly so what's happening now doesn't guarantee what's going to happen next year.
Last year there was unpaid voluntary leave offered on short haul. DEP's joined in Jan/Feb. Go figure.
