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Old 12th Feb 2016, 15:29
  #2621 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,574
Dupre, others...

Ah well, I was hoping for an IT wizz to do a cut and paste but failing that here's my effort: a couple of example 777 (P1) EASA compliant lines for March, as published. They are both pretty "full on" as they are just above CAP. FYI Not sure how "junior" they went in the Stage 1 bid process but BKK'/HKGs tend to be somewhat popular, and the long SYDs can also attract some more senior bidders. They should at least give a flavour of the roster pattern. Please forgive formatting.

Decode:

XXX = destination at end of FDP
- = GMT day off at base.
* = GMT day down route/en-route, so may contain a duty or part thereof...

Line 1

--EWRLHR*----BOM*LHR--JFKLHR*---BLR**LHR--HKG**LHR*

Line 2

-BAHBAHLHR*---SIN**SYD*SIN*LHR*-----BKK**LHR---DXB*LHR

notes for line 2

First trip is: LHR-BAH day one, BAH-DOH-BAH shuttle day two, BAH-LHR day 3/4

The final DXB*LHR is a "carry out", arriving LHR 1 Apr.

There are a handful of lines with 6 trips on them...(the low credit/flying hours, 3 day trips), but I thought publishing one of those would be bad for moral, unless you really like EWR, LOS, RUH etc......just think 3 day trip (e.g day flight out, nightstop, overnight flight home), 2 days off, 3 day trip, etc, you'll get the idea......

Last edited by wiggy; 12th Feb 2016 at 16:21.
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 05:12
  #2622 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: somewhere hot and sticky
Age: 40
Posts: 276
wiggy

Wow thanks for that, really much appreciated! It took me a couple of minutes to understand it, but got there in the end ☺

Anyone else with any different fleets?
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 08:22
  #2623 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: .
Posts: 274
Less days off than I would have imagined. Are 15 or more days off possible or simply non-existant?
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 08:43
  #2624 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,574
Less days off than I would have imagined. Are 15 or more days off possible or simply non-existant?
Yikes........even at BA, even in Longhaul we're expected to come to work every now and then . To be fair some of this depends on whether you regard a late departure from LHR (e.g. to SIN,) as a day off, and also if you'd regard an oh dark thirty arrival at LHR as an effective day off (e.g. arrivals from LOS, NBO, SIN). If you are prepared to think that way you'll get 15 days "off" on a lot of lines. OTOH as a full timer it's very hard if not impossible to get 15 entire days off unless you've got leave or a Duty Free Week already embedded in the month (Now no doubt somebody will look at rosters and prove me wrong but I'm betting 15 complete non leave days clear of duty on a final final roster is rare).....

History lesson: Once upon a time, a time that ended a couple of years back, you could build up a "bank" of hours by working over the CAP for several months and then trade in those hours by bidding for a below CAP line ( the lower limit used to be CAP minus 15 hours)... so if you worked at it you could occasionally bid to get a "light" line with perhaps 15 days off in a month, and sit back safe in the knowledge the roster was safe ('ish). Nowadays the company are still happy for you to build a bank ( no..sh...sherlock), but if you try to discharge it and as a result get a big juicy gap on your line the company will probably find a trip to drop into it (it's called Final Assign/Roster Assign). EASA rules have made that a tad more difficult but BA have ways of making it work,

FWIW this is the exactly the sort of reason to beware of some of the ex-BA guys who go around saying how great
Bidline is:

" Wonderful system dear chap..bid high in winter my boy, bid low in summer...lots of fixed days off... now must go, need a new sail for the yacht ...."

It's not bad, but it has changed radically - and who knows what's around the corner????

Last edited by wiggy; 13th Feb 2016 at 11:32.
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 09:01
  #2625 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: .
Posts: 274
Good info, thanks. It's not too difficult to achieve 12-13 DO at my current establishment, in days past 14-16 was possible. And in the distant mists of time big strings of days off were possible according to the old sages that speak fondly of the "good old days".

What would the more junior, 6 trip, lines look like wrt days off? 10 or less?
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 09:25
  #2626 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,574
OK, mea culpa, not many 6 trippers I suspect due to EASA and the fact I'm looking at Feb..however just so I can say they do exist ( I've not checked how they survived the full process- i.e. did someone end up with these as advertised or were people able to clash trips out due to sims/leave, etc):

Line 1.

DME------EWRLHR*--YYZLHR*--JFKLHR*--SAN**LHR--PEK* ( carry out)

^
yep, you're not mistaken, that's a Moscow, it's an out and back day trip.

Much more typical for the month:

---ATL*LHR--JFK*LHR--IAH**LHR--PUJ**LGW----PHL*( carry out)

Edit to add: I'll emphasise these are probably close to worse case lines in terms of days worked/trips flown, there are many better. You may be able do better than these and Blindlines might have TASS days (potential days off) instead of trip(s), but think of them as possible worse case.

Anther thought on days off - how do you regard a local day free of duty down route? A day wasted or a day off - I know a lot depends on family...and where it is..e.g. caribbean vs..???....

Must go, wearing keyboard out.......

Last edited by wiggy; 13th Feb 2016 at 11:23.
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 09:45
  #2627 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Anther thought on days off - how do you regard a local day free of duty down route? A day wasted or a day off - I know a lot depends on family...and where it is..e.g. caribbean vs..???....
An age old question. It suits the company more and I'm still somewhere at the behest of someone else. However it can be useful if there is a plan to meet family or have other plans downroute. Still not a proper day off in my book though.
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 10:27
  #2628 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 1
Paypoints

Please could someone give me the current annual pay points (pay increments, if that's the correct name for them) for a new joining 777 FO? Either on here or privately is fine, whichever you prefer. I am starting in April and my wife has been offered a new job, but it needs careful checking on our finances, so a 5 year progression of pay would be brilliant. Many thanks
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 13:37
  #2629 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 774
You've got to love the horror attached to a Moscow "there and back in a day" - particularly on the 777 - when easyJet crews have been doing this for a long time on a much slower A319. As has been said before you have to take the doom and gloom from people firmly inside the BA bubble with a pinch of salt.

Wiggy, try Sharm and back in a day. Yes you read that correctly ;-)
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 13:46
  #2630 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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Oh dear, no whinging or horror from me ......I've "commuted" down the back with Easy often enough to have compared rosters and have heard a lot about the Sharm....

My comment was made because anyone reading a BA Long Haul roster for the first time might be perplexed to see the DME and might think it's a mistake/typo/or a carry in following a nightstop from the previous month (it's on first of the month) hence the comment.

There's no need to apologise, just hope that clears it up.
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 13:53
  #2631 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 774
Wiggy I meant no offence and no worries I appreciate that the point was simply made to clarify the tripline in question. However, there are plenty of your (my) colleagues who I know for a fact would have a good whinge at that particular "trip".

I appreciate all your postings as it is helping plenty of people to plan for their (in my case distant) future.

Cheers
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 15:28
  #2632 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: earth
Posts: 298
The other thing to note is that we get 2 weeks leave in summer and winter and a weeks Duty Free each season (to make up for Bank holidays). You can opt to work in the DFW. Most people can get therefore a week off every other month. What you used to be able to do easily, but can sometimes be achieved, is to make the week off bigger by bidding appropriately.

We can still sector swap on trips to make your's shorter or longer and this is a computer transaction that will happen if legal.

I used to think that a full line was about 15/16/17 days of work and about 12 nights away on the 777. And at the moment we have about 52 destinations.
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Old 13th Feb 2016, 16:24
  #2633 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course
Posts: 2,106
Rex

BA shorthaul have been doing DME (and before that SVO) day trips since well before Easyjet was a glint in Stelios' mind.

It is a recent BA change from a short haul route to long haul that has seen the Club World product deployed on the ex BMed/BMI A321's and B777 and B744 aircraft on the route.

Hell, I remember doing an SVO return back in 1990 for BA on a B737-200 @ M0.72 with no area navigation system (*) and having to track NDB's all the way through Russia. The return sector with strong headwinds is in my logbook at 5 hrs 14.

Just saying!

(*) we had area nav using auto dme/dme tuning but there weren't any/enough at any time to give any reliable accuracy
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Old 14th Feb 2016, 07:15
  #2634 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,574
Rex

there are plenty of your (my) colleagues who I know for a fact would have a good whinge at that particular "trip".
Now I certainly can't argue with that .

ATB
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Old 14th Feb 2016, 07:43
  #2635 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 1,915
how do you regard a local day free of duty down route?
That's why golf was invented - I've played in every continent apart from Antarctica.....
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Old 16th Feb 2016, 08:08
  #2636 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 195
All this talk of how EASA has affected long haul. SH has REALLY been impacted.

Prior to 0600, 3 sector days used to be limited to 9hrs 30. 4 I believe was 9hrs?

It is now 12hrs. This means early, early reports can now finish around 5pm. When the BALPA council of LH reps advised us that Short Haul will be changing it's scheduling agreement to harmonise with EASA limits in 2014. There was uproar.
We are now starting to see trips constructed with these 'augmentations' that prior to this deal, would have been illegal under the old CAA scheme.

In other words, we now have trips constructed that 2 years ago, would have required up to 2 1/2 hours of discretion to fly them.

This summer, with the addition of nearly 30 charter there-and-backs, it is highly likely that most trips will be constructed to EASA limits in order to fly the program.

We still do not have a visible Fatigue Management Reporting System.

Welcome to SH. Devised by BA. Sculpted by BALPA.
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Old 16th Feb 2016, 09:20
  #2637 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 5
Hi all,

Any insiders aware of how the rated A320 recruitment is going? Hopefully the A320 pool of potentials has dried up over the past 18 months or so and the sub 2000hrs non-Airbus brigade swimmers can be unleashed on the training department! Also, (no-one having a crystal ball appreciated) any idea what the 2017 DEP requirement may look like, should pass the 2000hr mark Jan/Feb next year...many thanks.
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Old 16th Feb 2016, 09:46
  #2638 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 789
Those of us working for the low cost competition have been doing 4 sector early duties with reports before 0600 and a duty time limit of 12 hours. Many of these days are well in excess of 8 hours block flying and in the summer one could be doing 5 of these in a row. I agree they are very much hard graft, especially in a noisy and uncomfortable flight deck like the 737.

I appreciate this is a fairly unpleasant shock to the system but if BASH is to keep up with the competition it will be harder and harder to do so without trying to work the aircraft (and necessarily the crew) harder.
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Old 16th Feb 2016, 12:13
  #2639 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: FL390
Posts: 4
Those of us working for the low cost competition have been doing 4 sector early duties with reports before 0600 and a duty time limit of 12 hours.
Already got 'em at BA. Had a string of early trips last week which included breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Don't forget, though - EASA is safer...
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Old 17th Feb 2016, 16:44
  #2640 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London,England
Posts: 1,289
Heard from someone the other day that EASA are thinking of renaming the themselves and deleting the word "safety" from the the name, be much more appropriate.

When the BALPA council of LH reps advised us that Short Haul will be changing it's scheduling agreement to harmonise with EASA limits in 2014. There was uproar.
There was not "uproar", there was the same indifference and lack of action that has allowed BA to walk all over BALPA and the CC to walk all over the short haul membership. How many CC reps were sent packing after the decision?, none as far as I know.
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