RJ 100s at BA EOG
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Well thats one way of looking at it Big Nose, but then another way is to say thats 150 well paid pilots jobs up the swanney, to be replaced by 150 less well paid jobs. If they'd stayed in BA somebody would have to have to crew those aircraft, which may have hastened the BACE 146 pilots getting on the BA terms, or could have provided a better paid job for someone whose redundant right now. Furthermore the CFE guys are being forced off an aircraft they may not want to leave and will be faced with touring out of a remote base on a dying fleet. They'll need to undertake a conversion course, which means a costly two month break from flying allowances, and the Captains are likey to lost their commands as they lack the seniority to bid for a command on any other type. Hardly a laughing matter for those guys.
I'll second the above comments on BAR cabin crew. There are a few around who are a waste of space, and there some around on quite a bit of dosh who would be worth every penny of it and more on a long haul aircraft if the company would let them go. Most of the rest just smile and get on with it on a basic of £9K pa and 2-300 quid of allowances in a good month if they're lucky. I was struggling to live on that sort of cash 10 years ago!
I'll second the above comments on BAR cabin crew. There are a few around who are a waste of space, and there some around on quite a bit of dosh who would be worth every penny of it and more on a long haul aircraft if the company would let them go. Most of the rest just smile and get on with it on a basic of £9K pa and 2-300 quid of allowances in a good month if they're lucky. I was struggling to live on that sort of cash 10 years ago!
Last edited by Hand Solo; 14th Apr 2002 at 22:43.
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Dunno who told them that but it doesn't fit with BA P&P rules. They're not even close to senior enough for a command on any type and once you throw in a conversion course all bets are off. Its regrettable but the word on the street is that they're headed for the right hand seat.
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Much, in some ways, as it grieves me to admit it, Bignose is right, as are BRAL, BENDYLADY, James Thin and others. Hand Solo, you may or may nor not have some correct info, but without a certified accountant checking the whole of the BA cost structure we will never know. What we DO know is that some trimming is required, and Rod is busy at that. The trimming he's instituting has so far been seen by the markets as far too little too late - so think what it might have been like if he had REALLY addressed the problem.
Secondly, look around you. I don't see the 50 odd Cathay guys taken back yet. I don't see all the BMi 146 guys getting a good deal over their somewhat questionable sudden redundancy; yet you seem to have the mindset someone referred to as typical mainline, and sadly it is. Raise your eyes over the dashboard mate, there's a real world out there, and sh*t happens!!
I note your concerns are not for your cadet colleagues who are now flying with us (BACEX) and who have taken a far greater percentile "hit" on remuneration than the LGW or Regional guys you are discussing. To a man, they all appear to be very glad they have jobs. BALPA is not what it was ever perceived to be, (sadly in some respects) and there are very few of us in this current Blairite post-MajorThatcher era who could afford to take all the risks associated with a strike. Most of us, frankly across the industry, think we are pretty fortunate to have jobs at all post September.
(not to mention post joining the loss making BAR - Profitmaking, don't talk rubbish, BHX to a small degree, the rest a thumping huge loss, as you know well!!)
So why not accept this is going to happen, that Scope is NOT going to happen, and wait for the inevitable market upturn, and pilot shortage when we (as pilots) will be in a much stronger position to improve EVERYONE'S Ts and Cs. That, if you think about it, was how BA achieved their current status. It was certainly NOT by lemming like action in the middle of an industry downturn!
:o :o
Secondly, look around you. I don't see the 50 odd Cathay guys taken back yet. I don't see all the BMi 146 guys getting a good deal over their somewhat questionable sudden redundancy; yet you seem to have the mindset someone referred to as typical mainline, and sadly it is. Raise your eyes over the dashboard mate, there's a real world out there, and sh*t happens!!
I note your concerns are not for your cadet colleagues who are now flying with us (BACEX) and who have taken a far greater percentile "hit" on remuneration than the LGW or Regional guys you are discussing. To a man, they all appear to be very glad they have jobs. BALPA is not what it was ever perceived to be, (sadly in some respects) and there are very few of us in this current Blairite post-MajorThatcher era who could afford to take all the risks associated with a strike. Most of us, frankly across the industry, think we are pretty fortunate to have jobs at all post September.
(not to mention post joining the loss making BAR - Profitmaking, don't talk rubbish, BHX to a small degree, the rest a thumping huge loss, as you know well!!)
So why not accept this is going to happen, that Scope is NOT going to happen, and wait for the inevitable market upturn, and pilot shortage when we (as pilots) will be in a much stronger position to improve EVERYONE'S Ts and Cs. That, if you think about it, was how BA achieved their current status. It was certainly NOT by lemming like action in the middle of an industry downturn!
:o :o
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Hand Solo,
Except for a late appearance by Overstress you are the single BA pilot trying to explain why this is bad for everyone involved in the long run. As another BA pilot I applaud your effort. It is extremely short-sighted to say 'I'm alright, Jack' because it merely opens up the way for BA to franchise out to lower and lower paying companies until someone gets the bright idea of making pilots work for free if they want to do the job so much. In the meantime the reduction in T and Cs doesn't do anything for the pax who pay the same for a ticket regardless of who is operating the flight.
I'm trying to be succinct because I think Hand has made a very rational argument so that's all from me.
Except for a late appearance by Overstress you are the single BA pilot trying to explain why this is bad for everyone involved in the long run. As another BA pilot I applaud your effort. It is extremely short-sighted to say 'I'm alright, Jack' because it merely opens up the way for BA to franchise out to lower and lower paying companies until someone gets the bright idea of making pilots work for free if they want to do the job so much. In the meantime the reduction in T and Cs doesn't do anything for the pax who pay the same for a ticket regardless of who is operating the flight.
I'm trying to be succinct because I think Hand has made a very rational argument so that's all from me.
I agree with pandora, Hand Solo is the only one talking sense here.
It's understandable that Citi Express pilots want to fly these bigger aircraft, but as I said before, overall this will only result in the same jobs being less well paid in the long run, and ultimately the very people advocating that they should get the work may be the very ones who end up less well off.
Don't be misled into thinking that paying the pilots less is likely to make any difference as to whether the operation is or is not profitable. On a 100+ seat aircraft, the pilot costs are such a small proportion of total operating costs that the difference between a BACE type pay and mainline pay will be negligable in overall operating terms.
As to whether BAR is or is not profitable, that is up to what the accountants wish to show.
It's understandable that Citi Express pilots want to fly these bigger aircraft, but as I said before, overall this will only result in the same jobs being less well paid in the long run, and ultimately the very people advocating that they should get the work may be the very ones who end up less well off.
Don't be misled into thinking that paying the pilots less is likely to make any difference as to whether the operation is or is not profitable. On a 100+ seat aircraft, the pilot costs are such a small proportion of total operating costs that the difference between a BACE type pay and mainline pay will be negligable in overall operating terms.
As to whether BAR is or is not profitable, that is up to what the accountants wish to show.
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Good on you Hand Solo.
Have you honestly thought about what has been suggested, regarding routes being handed down. How would you feel if your employer did that. ?? And not just once or twice.
Nosferatu:
Its as simple as this.
Give ANYTHING away in your T & C's, and you will NEVER see it again. End pf story. Doesnt matter if there is a pilot shortage (thats old chesnuts been around since about '92 hasnt it?) or not, once the management has succeeded in screwing the line bods out of something, why on earth should they give it back?
Have you honestly thought about what has been suggested, regarding routes being handed down. How would you feel if your employer did that. ?? And not just once or twice.
Nosferatu:
Its as simple as this.
Give ANYTHING away in your T & C's, and you will NEVER see it again. End pf story. Doesnt matter if there is a pilot shortage (thats old chesnuts been around since about '92 hasnt it?) or not, once the management has succeeded in screwing the line bods out of something, why on earth should they give it back?
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Funny what everyone else seems to know....
As an RJ skipper at LGW I can categorically say that no-one has been told anything regards commands, fleet changes etc etc....
For those that don't know EOG is no more having officially ceased to be on the 31st March. And on the subject of T's and C's when is Gatwick going to get the same as the Heathrow crews - we all do the same job for the same company after all. Especially in the light of EOG being no more.
By the way Big Nose - I wish I was laughing all the way to the bank, but life is very expensive in the south east and what with Gordon about to increase taxes and all that !!
As an RJ skipper at LGW I can categorically say that no-one has been told anything regards commands, fleet changes etc etc....
For those that don't know EOG is no more having officially ceased to be on the 31st March. And on the subject of T's and C's when is Gatwick going to get the same as the Heathrow crews - we all do the same job for the same company after all. Especially in the light of EOG being no more.
By the way Big Nose - I wish I was laughing all the way to the bank, but life is very expensive in the south east and what with Gordon about to increase taxes and all that !!
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Nosferatu - I don't really think you are aggrieved to 'admit' that your colleagues are right. BA does need trimming, a lot of it, and quickly too. So why aren't we getting rid of all those expensive pilots? Is it because they know their requirements for flight crew almost to a man (no pencil and paper stuff here, we're talking big computer processes)? Is it because with natural wastage they know they're going to be short of flight crew soon and there's no slack left in the system to work them harder? Is it because the only way to solve that problem is to eliminate BA flying positions rather than hire new people? If Rod had really addressed the problem we'd have 10000 fewer support staff still for the same number of flight crew, just like Lufthansa.
Your concern for our CEPs is noble, and I'm sure they appreciate a flying job, but have you considered that there are now 150 fewer positions for them in BA? Without scope who's to say that we won't continue down this line? Then there might not be jobs for them for years, and that will really hit them in the pocket. Yeah there's a real world out there, and bad things happen, but don't go overboard with the 'lucky to have a job' line. We're lucky to be born healthy, we're lucky to live in a civilised country, we're lucky we're not starving african children. How little will you accept before you start thinking 'Perhaps I'm lucky, but this stinks', because thats the level management are trying to find and thats what they'll pay you if they can.
As to your point about the profitabilty of BAR, there you are simply passing off fiction as fact. BAR overall has been profitable in recent years. Simple fact. BAs version of the accounts are available, go and look them up if you have time. The RJ move does not guarantee profitability in the regions. There has been no business case made , no cost analysis has been done. The move is a political whim and nothing more. Scope will happen and needs to happen to set the bottom line. Don't fool yourself that a pilot shortage will push up your wages. Easy and Ryanair are offering big wedge to those who'll join, so why aren't your wages going up this year? When did BA ever achieve its T&Cs like that? When its crews were paid better than market rate the company said 'Can only afford market rate'. Now they paid less than market rate its 'We can't afford to pay any more'. The firm won't pay you a penny more than they can get away with, and if you demand a fairer salary then it's up to them to work out which area of gross waste and inefficency to tackle to find the funds.
Your concern for our CEPs is noble, and I'm sure they appreciate a flying job, but have you considered that there are now 150 fewer positions for them in BA? Without scope who's to say that we won't continue down this line? Then there might not be jobs for them for years, and that will really hit them in the pocket. Yeah there's a real world out there, and bad things happen, but don't go overboard with the 'lucky to have a job' line. We're lucky to be born healthy, we're lucky to live in a civilised country, we're lucky we're not starving african children. How little will you accept before you start thinking 'Perhaps I'm lucky, but this stinks', because thats the level management are trying to find and thats what they'll pay you if they can.
As to your point about the profitabilty of BAR, there you are simply passing off fiction as fact. BAR overall has been profitable in recent years. Simple fact. BAs version of the accounts are available, go and look them up if you have time. The RJ move does not guarantee profitability in the regions. There has been no business case made , no cost analysis has been done. The move is a political whim and nothing more. Scope will happen and needs to happen to set the bottom line. Don't fool yourself that a pilot shortage will push up your wages. Easy and Ryanair are offering big wedge to those who'll join, so why aren't your wages going up this year? When did BA ever achieve its T&Cs like that? When its crews were paid better than market rate the company said 'Can only afford market rate'. Now they paid less than market rate its 'We can't afford to pay any more'. The firm won't pay you a penny more than they can get away with, and if you demand a fairer salary then it's up to them to work out which area of gross waste and inefficency to tackle to find the funds.
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White Knight we've all wanted that at EOG for years. Our cabin crew manager (Rod Wilcox) told us straight last year "You will NEVER earn LHR pay rates here at EOG/EFG, if you want those T&C's and rates, transfer when the opportunity comes". Simple as that .
Just a quick observation everyone. I can see this is an emotive issue for everyone. But Hand Solo does seem very well informed on a wide variety of issues to do with B.A. , his comments are constructive, sensible, well-structured, and thought out. (On all issues he posts on PPRUNE). While some of you let your emotions get in the way when your posting (I'll put my hand up to it too), he doesn't resort to lowering the tone or attacking people personnally unlike some. What he says about B.A. taking stuff away and not giving it back is true.
Guys... "The enemy" is not BAR, BACE,Brymon,EOG, or Mainline B.A. pilots or cabin crew - it's B.A.'s management and the way it's opperating and making us opperate!! I want to see the company come back to profit and will give 200% on whatever contract they give me, but we need to keep what do have at least or we'll have very little.
We've all got to stick together - we're all doing the same job, just on different contracts and T&C's - annoying as that is - I can't see it changing unless we all stick together!!
Keep up the posts Hand!! I'm learning a lot!!!
If we the staff pull together we might just be able to be this again.
. Just a quick observation everyone. I can see this is an emotive issue for everyone. But Hand Solo does seem very well informed on a wide variety of issues to do with B.A. , his comments are constructive, sensible, well-structured, and thought out. (On all issues he posts on PPRUNE). While some of you let your emotions get in the way when your posting (I'll put my hand up to it too), he doesn't resort to lowering the tone or attacking people personnally unlike some. What he says about B.A. taking stuff away and not giving it back is true.
Guys... "The enemy" is not BAR, BACE,Brymon,EOG, or Mainline B.A. pilots or cabin crew - it's B.A.'s management and the way it's opperating and making us opperate!! I want to see the company come back to profit and will give 200% on whatever contract they give me, but we need to keep what do have at least or we'll have very little.
We've all got to stick together - we're all doing the same job, just on different contracts and T&C's - annoying as that is - I can't see it changing unless we all stick together!!
Keep up the posts Hand!! I'm learning a lot!!!
If we the staff pull together we might just be able to be this again.
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All this squabbling. You lucky, lucky people. All I want is a job. I lost my job in December last year. ATP rated and the only company in the uk who operate them is BACE. But no chance of a job there-already been rejected a few months ago. Tell me, the cadets that are streaming into BACE are they operating the ATP.
Let me tell you once again how lucky you are.
Let me tell you once again how lucky you are.
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So will there be any hiring for these RJ's once they hit the regions? BA, Citi Express or what ever, does anyone know if there are likely to be any jobs for those currently unemployed?
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BACE (Ex-Brymon).I've read some of the posts with a real feeling of despair.I realize that sometimes emotions run high, but the contempt and lack of respect for fellow professionals being displayed at times has been dreadful(and it has been shown by both sides).
Divide and conquer seems to be the management ethos at the moment.Can I respectfully recommend that we don't fall for it!
Divide and conquer seems to be the management ethos at the moment.Can I respectfully recommend that we don't fall for it!
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As an interested observer, I cannot understand how employees of various BA divisions allow themselves to fall for the oldest trick in the book......divide and conquer.
Whether you like it or not, you all work for the same company, no matter which division or agreement you belong to. Surely the idea of going to work is to achieve the best remuneration possible so why are some employees trying to drag their collegues down to the lowest level. That is managements job.
Management will try to achieve this by quoting what they want to quote to achieve a result. Thus the Brymon division was far more efficient and profitable than BAR. Anybody could be if they were allowed to regularly cancel flights at short notice due little or no infrastructure in the way of standby crews,aircraft or technical support and then just hand over the ensuing mess to BA and BAR ground staff to sort out and pay for.
Stick together boys and girls.....it is the only way forward
Whether you like it or not, you all work for the same company, no matter which division or agreement you belong to. Surely the idea of going to work is to achieve the best remuneration possible so why are some employees trying to drag their collegues down to the lowest level. That is managements job.
Management will try to achieve this by quoting what they want to quote to achieve a result. Thus the Brymon division was far more efficient and profitable than BAR. Anybody could be if they were allowed to regularly cancel flights at short notice due little or no infrastructure in the way of standby crews,aircraft or technical support and then just hand over the ensuing mess to BA and BAR ground staff to sort out and pay for.
Stick together boys and girls.....it is the only way forward
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Without wishing to get embroiled in this whole arguement, can I just insert some hard facts as regards the ex-CFE flight crew:
Firstly, as regards to our future prospects. To echo White Knight, we have been told precisely nothing about what will be happening to us. To be sure, there is plenty of rumour control, but we have recieved no information from management whatsoever. Which frankly, given that a key point in the FS&S briefing was 'regular communication from management', is deplorable. Not only has no information been forthcoming, but nobody will even suggest a timescale for when that situation might change. Pathetic.
My limited understanding of these things is that how we are handled depends on how the demise / move of the RJ is classified, as apparently different rules apply. So when Bidding closed (coincidentally today) we don't even know what set of rules we are bidding under. Pathetic.
Secondly, once again the myth that CFE paid poorly. I can state absolutely categorically that many of us require personal differentials to prop up our salary to BA levels. The pay is frozen (which in real terms means a gradual paycut) until BA payscales catch up. In mine and several other cases, demise of our training roles (as the functions transfer to Cranebank) now leaves us with a lower salary in absolute terms. In my case thats quite substantial, although I will admit that it is protected for a year. But in 12 months time, and for another 2 or 3 years therafter, my basic will be less that it was at CFE. Fortunately, better allowances will make good most of the shortfall, but the cost of those allowances is having to do multiple day tours.
And of course, I can expect a drop in those allowances once I am kicked out of the LHS as now appears inevitable.
So basically as far as I'm concerned BA can take their wonderful conditions and insert them in a place where there is a distinct lack of incoming solar radiation. Sideways. Minus vaseline.
Happy Teddy.
Firstly, as regards to our future prospects. To echo White Knight, we have been told precisely nothing about what will be happening to us. To be sure, there is plenty of rumour control, but we have recieved no information from management whatsoever. Which frankly, given that a key point in the FS&S briefing was 'regular communication from management', is deplorable. Not only has no information been forthcoming, but nobody will even suggest a timescale for when that situation might change. Pathetic.
My limited understanding of these things is that how we are handled depends on how the demise / move of the RJ is classified, as apparently different rules apply. So when Bidding closed (coincidentally today) we don't even know what set of rules we are bidding under. Pathetic.
Secondly, once again the myth that CFE paid poorly. I can state absolutely categorically that many of us require personal differentials to prop up our salary to BA levels. The pay is frozen (which in real terms means a gradual paycut) until BA payscales catch up. In mine and several other cases, demise of our training roles (as the functions transfer to Cranebank) now leaves us with a lower salary in absolute terms. In my case thats quite substantial, although I will admit that it is protected for a year. But in 12 months time, and for another 2 or 3 years therafter, my basic will be less that it was at CFE. Fortunately, better allowances will make good most of the shortfall, but the cost of those allowances is having to do multiple day tours.
And of course, I can expect a drop in those allowances once I am kicked out of the LHS as now appears inevitable.
So basically as far as I'm concerned BA can take their wonderful conditions and insert them in a place where there is a distinct lack of incoming solar radiation. Sideways. Minus vaseline.
Happy Teddy.
Last edited by Capt Pit Bull; 16th Apr 2002 at 17:28.
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It was the cruellist quirk of fate and BA mismanagement that saw CFE absorbed into EOG swiftly followed by the announcement to move the aircraft to the regions.
However it must be said that the RJ is a godawfull aircraft for the punters that is cramped, uncomfortable and slow. For sectors under an hour it is bearable with the current (charter) seating density but to fly it further afield - No thanks. What is more the Club accomodation & product is very much below the standard offered elsewhere in BA for punters who are paying top dollar.
These guys (CFE) were doing fine feeding off the brand but it was decided the brand had become too diluted so we know what happened next. It was an enormous commercial mistake incorporating this operation into BA mainline.
Having said all that we are stuck with the problems of the Status Quo. In their first 5 years the Flight Crew can be directed anywhere at the behest of BA. As for the LHS>RHS situation your current salary becomes preserved until the new scale catches up - at least that is the agreement.
Perhaps someone might correct me but I understand a number of exCFE skippers do not have the BA experience requirements for command in BA ???
Worst case scenario for ex-CFE is that BA turn around and say;
1. Here's your relocation package i.a.w agreements
2. Your current salary is frozen/preserved
3. Your contract of employment is hereby transferred to BACE MAN/BHX
All totally legal and i.a.w. current agreements (bar the contract transfer of course).
This will naturally be against BALPA's wishes but since when did BALPA dictate BA's commercial strategy? That of course would be the principle submission in court when BA sought to get any strike declared illegal.
As for BACE - you guys are working for a wholly owned subsidiary of BA - like-it-or-not. If you are happy to work like the proverbial then good luck, but some of the posts above seem to say:
'I work longer and harder for BACE and I get paid a lot less and I'm really proud of it'
'Scuse me if I sit here scratching my head
However it must be said that the RJ is a godawfull aircraft for the punters that is cramped, uncomfortable and slow. For sectors under an hour it is bearable with the current (charter) seating density but to fly it further afield - No thanks. What is more the Club accomodation & product is very much below the standard offered elsewhere in BA for punters who are paying top dollar.
These guys (CFE) were doing fine feeding off the brand but it was decided the brand had become too diluted so we know what happened next. It was an enormous commercial mistake incorporating this operation into BA mainline.
Having said all that we are stuck with the problems of the Status Quo. In their first 5 years the Flight Crew can be directed anywhere at the behest of BA. As for the LHS>RHS situation your current salary becomes preserved until the new scale catches up - at least that is the agreement.
Perhaps someone might correct me but I understand a number of exCFE skippers do not have the BA experience requirements for command in BA ???
Worst case scenario for ex-CFE is that BA turn around and say;
1. Here's your relocation package i.a.w agreements
2. Your current salary is frozen/preserved
3. Your contract of employment is hereby transferred to BACE MAN/BHX
All totally legal and i.a.w. current agreements (bar the contract transfer of course).
This will naturally be against BALPA's wishes but since when did BALPA dictate BA's commercial strategy? That of course would be the principle submission in court when BA sought to get any strike declared illegal.
As for BACE - you guys are working for a wholly owned subsidiary of BA - like-it-or-not. If you are happy to work like the proverbial then good luck, but some of the posts above seem to say:
'I work longer and harder for BACE and I get paid a lot less and I'm really proud of it'
'Scuse me if I sit here scratching my head
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Good defence Hand. Correct me if I'm wrong, however, but don't BAR/BACE already have 100+ seater aircraft in the form of 146's. Therefore it's a bit late in the day to start SCOPE clauses. The RJ has no place in London but it does in the regions. I don't want to fly in the regions under any contract. No offence, boys but my life is here. So, scope or no scope those 150 jobs are still going to stay in LGW/LHR and other people higher up the seniority list than us are still going to have their nose put out of joint because some of us will be directed to LHR. Which, my cynical self tells me has a lot to do with it.
All this to-ing and fro-ing serves little purpose because if LGW hasn't managed to secure parity with LHR in ten years then you are living in a dreamworld if you think BA will ever acceed to your outrageous (even if noble!) demands over 16 RJ's.
As WK and others have said, nothing re commands has been finalised and I have to say to Magplug and others who commented confidently that we would all lose our commands "Of course! " it's a poxy way to treat us.
WHY?
Well let's look at the case history shall we. CFE were offered a number of routes before the merger and all hell broke lose using phrases not unlike the ones used here. The BA Knights were out in force defending T&C's in the name of the average pilot. Basically, the argument went something like this:
"CFE aircraft/pilots should not do BA routes because it takes away jobs from BA pilots and it wears away T&C's blah, blah, blahdy blah." Fine, so where do you now stand when Captains and SFO's say that if BA are going to use other aircraft to do routes previously flown by CFE we should keep our commands and to a certain extent the prospects for them (for SFO's). (I'd like to see how good Balpa are at standing their ground on your behalf if all 17 RJ TRI's handed in their sim keys simultaneously unless they were promised commands at the end of all their efforts! Idea for you there WK!....)
Are you telling us that you want your cake and that you want to eat it? OK, I accept that but you have just been exposed as everything you have been called in this thread by outsiders and all this rubbish you are spurting behind your burnished steel helmet, banner in hand atop your high horse is also going to sound rather hollow to our colleagues up north, as it does to me.
In my year at BA I have to say that all my new colleages that I have met in Jubly are sterling chaps but all this talk of unity and calls to arms are tosh and selfishly driven. Personally, I don't care diddly squat anymore (and I did before) how many silver spoon cadets or longserving FO's I displace in BA if I take up a much awaited LH slot or command on a 737 because despite what any of you say; it's every man/woman for themselves, believe me.
I do apologise for the attitude (not) but you people bring it upon yourselves.
All this to-ing and fro-ing serves little purpose because if LGW hasn't managed to secure parity with LHR in ten years then you are living in a dreamworld if you think BA will ever acceed to your outrageous (even if noble!) demands over 16 RJ's.
As WK and others have said, nothing re commands has been finalised and I have to say to Magplug and others who commented confidently that we would all lose our commands "Of course! " it's a poxy way to treat us.
WHY?
Well let's look at the case history shall we. CFE were offered a number of routes before the merger and all hell broke lose using phrases not unlike the ones used here. The BA Knights were out in force defending T&C's in the name of the average pilot. Basically, the argument went something like this:
"CFE aircraft/pilots should not do BA routes because it takes away jobs from BA pilots and it wears away T&C's blah, blah, blahdy blah." Fine, so where do you now stand when Captains and SFO's say that if BA are going to use other aircraft to do routes previously flown by CFE we should keep our commands and to a certain extent the prospects for them (for SFO's). (I'd like to see how good Balpa are at standing their ground on your behalf if all 17 RJ TRI's handed in their sim keys simultaneously unless they were promised commands at the end of all their efforts! Idea for you there WK!....)
Are you telling us that you want your cake and that you want to eat it? OK, I accept that but you have just been exposed as everything you have been called in this thread by outsiders and all this rubbish you are spurting behind your burnished steel helmet, banner in hand atop your high horse is also going to sound rather hollow to our colleagues up north, as it does to me.
In my year at BA I have to say that all my new colleages that I have met in Jubly are sterling chaps but all this talk of unity and calls to arms are tosh and selfishly driven. Personally, I don't care diddly squat anymore (and I did before) how many silver spoon cadets or longserving FO's I displace in BA if I take up a much awaited LH slot or command on a 737 because despite what any of you say; it's every man/woman for themselves, believe me.
I do apologise for the attitude (not) but you people bring it upon yourselves.
Last edited by Secret Squirrel; 16th Apr 2002 at 13:09.
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SS I agree thoroughly. The point about the LHR/LGW is a fine illustration that the company will seek to preserve ANY possible differential wherever it exists.
Please don't take the meaning from my previous post that I am confident that you will lose your command. Quite the opposite in fact...
The company would rather slit their corporate wrists than pay you a Captain's salary to sit in the RHS
As I said before the LHR senior hoards and BLA..PA may have their agenda but look at the economic realities of our situation. I am confident in a corps of this many pilots there will be a 'middle-ground' solution.
Please don't take the meaning from my previous post that I am confident that you will lose your command. Quite the opposite in fact...
The company would rather slit their corporate wrists than pay you a Captain's salary to sit in the RHS
As I said before the LHR senior hoards and BLA..PA may have their agenda but look at the economic realities of our situation. I am confident in a corps of this many pilots there will be a 'middle-ground' solution.
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Worst case scenario?
Actually Magplug, I'm not really sure that is the worst case scenario.
I don't want to move up north. But if I absolutely positively have to fly out of MAN or BHX then so be it. The company can relocate myself, Mrs & Miss Pit Bull and we'll move up there and get on with it.
Trouble is, one of the more feasable sounding rumours floating around is that the company doesn't want to cough up to relocate anyone, they'd rather we positioned (by a/c to Man, by bus to BHX) and then live out of a hotel for 6 days, repeat ad infinitum, or for a year or two until BACE crew trained up or whatever. So from (1 year ago) being in a job where I was away from home for single nights at worst, Myself and family can look forward to a lot of time apart.
Now doubtless many are thinking a year or two isn't that long, pitbulls got lots of time left in BA to rake in the goodies later on. I.E. "Jam Tomorrow". Thats not how I see it. I've been flying for 19 years, I reckon I'm due for some jam today. And 2 years is a long time when miss pitbull is only 2.
Management had better realise there is some deep anger building in the ex-CFE community. We accepted a lot of stuff during the integration with a feeling of inevitability. Now we are being asked to take a lot more. Managements attitude seems to be that we've taken it before, we'll take it again. Presumably they have forgotten about the proverbial straw and the camels back. Only in this case its not so much of a straw as a lorry load of Iron Girders dropped from a great height.
Its even reached the stage of graffitti threatening physical harm to a certain manager. Whilst I would never condone physical violence in labour relations, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if somebody loses their rag and plants one on him.
For myself, if push comes to shove, BA had best appreciate that if they force me to choose between my family and my job, BA will lose in a heartbeat.
CPB
I don't want to move up north. But if I absolutely positively have to fly out of MAN or BHX then so be it. The company can relocate myself, Mrs & Miss Pit Bull and we'll move up there and get on with it.
Trouble is, one of the more feasable sounding rumours floating around is that the company doesn't want to cough up to relocate anyone, they'd rather we positioned (by a/c to Man, by bus to BHX) and then live out of a hotel for 6 days, repeat ad infinitum, or for a year or two until BACE crew trained up or whatever. So from (1 year ago) being in a job where I was away from home for single nights at worst, Myself and family can look forward to a lot of time apart.
Now doubtless many are thinking a year or two isn't that long, pitbulls got lots of time left in BA to rake in the goodies later on. I.E. "Jam Tomorrow". Thats not how I see it. I've been flying for 19 years, I reckon I'm due for some jam today. And 2 years is a long time when miss pitbull is only 2.
Management had better realise there is some deep anger building in the ex-CFE community. We accepted a lot of stuff during the integration with a feeling of inevitability. Now we are being asked to take a lot more. Managements attitude seems to be that we've taken it before, we'll take it again. Presumably they have forgotten about the proverbial straw and the camels back. Only in this case its not so much of a straw as a lorry load of Iron Girders dropped from a great height.
Its even reached the stage of graffitti threatening physical harm to a certain manager. Whilst I would never condone physical violence in labour relations, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if somebody loses their rag and plants one on him.
For myself, if push comes to shove, BA had best appreciate that if they force me to choose between my family and my job, BA will lose in a heartbeat.
CPB