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I think Pit Bull has hit the nail on the head with the companys current plans to tour RJ crews through the regions. Given their statement that there are no roles for BA pilots in the new BACE RJ operation, I think they'd do their level best to avoid paying relocation for a move north only to have to pay it again two years later for a southbound move.
Squirrel - BACE do operate 146s with 100+ seats and I don't suppose any scope agreement would require them to surrender those, it's just that they wouldn't be able to buy any more 100+ seat aircraft. 99 seats fine, 101 seats not fine. After all, whats to stop management handing over the 737-500s or A318s next? Under current management all BA jobs are going to be at LGW/LHR because there won't be any regional bases. That won't prevent the company trying to tour you through the regions though. I wouldn't get too hung up with your suspiscion that people think you're going to be jumping the seniority list at LHR in some way. Junior people have been joining long haul fleets for donkeys years and its just accepted because type freezes or insufficient hours prevent more senior people moving. If you wish to go long haul with low seniority then your situation is no different to that of a DEP and I'm certainly not envious of it.
Squirrel - BACE do operate 146s with 100+ seats and I don't suppose any scope agreement would require them to surrender those, it's just that they wouldn't be able to buy any more 100+ seat aircraft. 99 seats fine, 101 seats not fine. After all, whats to stop management handing over the 737-500s or A318s next? Under current management all BA jobs are going to be at LGW/LHR because there won't be any regional bases. That won't prevent the company trying to tour you through the regions though. I wouldn't get too hung up with your suspiscion that people think you're going to be jumping the seniority list at LHR in some way. Junior people have been joining long haul fleets for donkeys years and its just accepted because type freezes or insufficient hours prevent more senior people moving. If you wish to go long haul with low seniority then your situation is no different to that of a DEP and I'm certainly not envious of it.
I can fully sympathise with your predicament CPB. City Flyer pilots are the latest in a long line to have their family lives severely disrupted by BA mismanagements feeble attempts to cut costs.
In reality few if any of these attempts have actually saved them anything. In most cases, if not all, the disruption caused to those involved has only added to BAs overall costs. I am thinking here of what happened to Highland Division, then later to the Scottish mainline base, and finally to Manchester and Birmingham.
In the case of Manchester and Birmingham I understand that a good business case was put forward for these bases to continue, but those making the decision chose to ignore it because they "had a feeling" that closure was best.
I wonder if they realise the cost of having disgruntled pilots? I very much doubt it.
In reality few if any of these attempts have actually saved them anything. In most cases, if not all, the disruption caused to those involved has only added to BAs overall costs. I am thinking here of what happened to Highland Division, then later to the Scottish mainline base, and finally to Manchester and Birmingham.
In the case of Manchester and Birmingham I understand that a good business case was put forward for these bases to continue, but those making the decision chose to ignore it because they "had a feeling" that closure was best.
I wonder if they realise the cost of having disgruntled pilots? I very much doubt it.
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I don't think anyone in BACX is saying that we are paid peanuts and proud of it, or at least they shouldn't.
Quite a few people on this thread are talking about divide and conquer. Surely the non-involvement by BA BALPA with BACX BALPA in scope discussions is fuelling this problem. It won't go away either. What of any future regional aircraft? The Embraer 170/190 will go from 70 seats up to 110+. This lack of communication between the two pilot groups plays into BA management's hands and helps neither group.
Quite a few people on this thread are talking about divide and conquer. Surely the non-involvement by BA BALPA with BACX BALPA in scope discussions is fuelling this problem. It won't go away either. What of any future regional aircraft? The Embraer 170/190 will go from 70 seats up to 110+. This lack of communication between the two pilot groups plays into BA management's hands and helps neither group.
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SCOPE is not protectionism
This whole subject is one very close to my heart and I was initially a little disappointed that I have stumbled across it so late in the day. What I can say is that Hand Solo has voiced quite coherently the issue of how much 'fudging' goes on in this wonderful company that is BA, I take my hat off to you.
The whole SCOPE issue may be shrouded in rhetoric by BALPA regarding the number of seats (100+) and the theft of 'our routes', but fundamentally what all this boils down to is pilot shortages.
When (and if) the day ever arrived, where BA were finding it a little tricky to attract new pilots into its ranks as quick as they were retiring, then that would be the day when BALPA would have the ultimate law of supply and demand on their side.
300 or so senior Captains retired in the financial year just gone. A year ago BA faced a severe shortage of pilots and elected to buy CFE. One of the unspoken advantages of such a purchase was the inheritance of a large community of pilots that would ease the looming crisis of pilot shortages. The BACE/BAR transfer (and as a complication the insult that Ex-CFE crews are to help wind it down) is another short term fix for the pilot shortage.
I hope you all see my point. If the pilot shortages were to have occurred more markedly due to a comprehensive SCOPE agreement, then BA would have had to make its DEP rates more attractive to those that were needed to replace the bulge of retirees. With a large exodus of labour from so called 'feeder airlines' to BA, to plug this gap the 'feeders' would have had to consequently raise their rates to retain their pilots. WE WOULD ALL WIN.
So to all BALPA members, whether you are in Big Airways or outside, remember the favourite phrase of my superiors
"We pay you market rate why are you complaining?"
Let's all work together to make this 'market rate' a better one.
The whole SCOPE issue may be shrouded in rhetoric by BALPA regarding the number of seats (100+) and the theft of 'our routes', but fundamentally what all this boils down to is pilot shortages.
When (and if) the day ever arrived, where BA were finding it a little tricky to attract new pilots into its ranks as quick as they were retiring, then that would be the day when BALPA would have the ultimate law of supply and demand on their side.
300 or so senior Captains retired in the financial year just gone. A year ago BA faced a severe shortage of pilots and elected to buy CFE. One of the unspoken advantages of such a purchase was the inheritance of a large community of pilots that would ease the looming crisis of pilot shortages. The BACE/BAR transfer (and as a complication the insult that Ex-CFE crews are to help wind it down) is another short term fix for the pilot shortage.
I hope you all see my point. If the pilot shortages were to have occurred more markedly due to a comprehensive SCOPE agreement, then BA would have had to make its DEP rates more attractive to those that were needed to replace the bulge of retirees. With a large exodus of labour from so called 'feeder airlines' to BA, to plug this gap the 'feeders' would have had to consequently raise their rates to retain their pilots. WE WOULD ALL WIN.
So to all BALPA members, whether you are in Big Airways or outside, remember the favourite phrase of my superiors
"We pay you market rate why are you complaining?"
Let's all work together to make this 'market rate' a better one.
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Secret Squirrel, regarding your comment
Many of us in BA unlike yourself I might add went through a system that we call selection. As an ex-cadet and having gone through this I find your comment somewhat insulting. I don't begrudge you being a part of BA it was not your choice, but to then insult those who got in the HARD way without the luxury of bypassing a very tough selection procedure is not on. You won't do yourself or your colleagues any favors with that attitude. If I was in your situation I'd be laughing all the way to the bank. I hope everything works out for you all, but equally I don't wish to see more senior pilots disadvantaged in the process.
I don't care diddly squat anymore (and I did before) how many silver spoon cadets or longserving FO's I displace in BA
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HomerJ,
I find your attitude somewhat disagreeable. Specifically, this issue of the selection process and that somehow the ex-CFE community can not really consider itself as being 'proper' BA pilots due to not having done it.
Just take a step back and look at it from my point of view. I'm sitting here and imagining the future. A future in which HomerJSimpson, or someone of similar viewpoint, might have an important say in my future. For example, say you become management and have to interview a selection of candidates for a training position.
Is the fact that I originated from CFE going to be held against me? Even if you don't consciously think so, the way I read your post, and several other 'proper' BA pilots over the last 2 years, your prejudice against us can be seen protruding between the lines.
Is our background going to blight the rest of our careers? Because that's what it looks like to me. And it fills me with despair. Any time anyone feels like it, they'll just reach into the closet of history and just whip out the "you didn't do the selection procedure, you're not worthy" arguement. I made this point in the various arguements last year, and sure enough here we are, 1 year later, and you're doing it.
To reiterate a point I made last year, the purpose of a selection process is to assess suitability for training. All ex CFE pilots have completed at least 1, more usually 2, and sometimes 3 type ratings in a BA approved and audited training system. I say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Not to mention the fact that CFE had a selection process as well, which many individuals have failed. By way of a specific example, my sim partner on the ATR back in '96 failed the CFE training, but subsequently passed BA selection.
Should I consider BA cadets arriving on my fleet as being suspect because thay have not passed a CFE selection? Of course not.
I don't want to get into a Pythonesque "When I were a lad" speech, but the point is that there is no question that the CFE mob are a tried and tested group of pilots and deserve to be considered as such.
As far as SSs comments go, why not ask yourself why his bracketed point of view has given way to the unbracketed? Whats made him change?
Think about my point of view. I was quite happy based at LGW flying the RJ, on my 5 year type freeze. The lack of seniority, whilst insulting, was of little immediate practical concern because of the freeze. I wouldn't have presumed to displace someone from 'proper' BA from a seat they wanted because I didn't need to. And neither (I would think) did SS.
But if it reaches the point where its down to me or somebody from BA proper to get a choice job, then as I understand it, depending on how the surplus is declared on the shrinking RJ fleet, I may recieve preference. Should that happen, here will be my feelings:
If the displaced individual joined pre '96 (i.e. has been in the group longer) then I'll feel a measure of guilt, combined with the hope that the individual gets their desired post at the soonest opportunity.
If the displaced individual joined the BA group after me, then I'll just view it as a rightful reclamation of unfairly witheld seniority, take the job and not bat an eyelid.
All I want to do is fly LHS out of LGW. I've been doing the former for 4 years, and the latter for 6 years. I fail to see why recent joiners to the BA group via the 'proper' selection procedure, should expect to displace me. If the RJ is going, I expect LHS on whatever replaces it in the shorthaul role, be it 737 next year or A320 series later. Seniority be damned.
CPB
I find your attitude somewhat disagreeable. Specifically, this issue of the selection process and that somehow the ex-CFE community can not really consider itself as being 'proper' BA pilots due to not having done it.
Just take a step back and look at it from my point of view. I'm sitting here and imagining the future. A future in which HomerJSimpson, or someone of similar viewpoint, might have an important say in my future. For example, say you become management and have to interview a selection of candidates for a training position.
Is the fact that I originated from CFE going to be held against me? Even if you don't consciously think so, the way I read your post, and several other 'proper' BA pilots over the last 2 years, your prejudice against us can be seen protruding between the lines.
Is our background going to blight the rest of our careers? Because that's what it looks like to me. And it fills me with despair. Any time anyone feels like it, they'll just reach into the closet of history and just whip out the "you didn't do the selection procedure, you're not worthy" arguement. I made this point in the various arguements last year, and sure enough here we are, 1 year later, and you're doing it.
To reiterate a point I made last year, the purpose of a selection process is to assess suitability for training. All ex CFE pilots have completed at least 1, more usually 2, and sometimes 3 type ratings in a BA approved and audited training system. I say the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Not to mention the fact that CFE had a selection process as well, which many individuals have failed. By way of a specific example, my sim partner on the ATR back in '96 failed the CFE training, but subsequently passed BA selection.
Should I consider BA cadets arriving on my fleet as being suspect because thay have not passed a CFE selection? Of course not.
I don't want to get into a Pythonesque "When I were a lad" speech, but the point is that there is no question that the CFE mob are a tried and tested group of pilots and deserve to be considered as such.
As far as SSs comments go, why not ask yourself why his bracketed point of view has given way to the unbracketed? Whats made him change?
Think about my point of view. I was quite happy based at LGW flying the RJ, on my 5 year type freeze. The lack of seniority, whilst insulting, was of little immediate practical concern because of the freeze. I wouldn't have presumed to displace someone from 'proper' BA from a seat they wanted because I didn't need to. And neither (I would think) did SS.
But if it reaches the point where its down to me or somebody from BA proper to get a choice job, then as I understand it, depending on how the surplus is declared on the shrinking RJ fleet, I may recieve preference. Should that happen, here will be my feelings:
If the displaced individual joined pre '96 (i.e. has been in the group longer) then I'll feel a measure of guilt, combined with the hope that the individual gets their desired post at the soonest opportunity.
If the displaced individual joined the BA group after me, then I'll just view it as a rightful reclamation of unfairly witheld seniority, take the job and not bat an eyelid.
All I want to do is fly LHS out of LGW. I've been doing the former for 4 years, and the latter for 6 years. I fail to see why recent joiners to the BA group via the 'proper' selection procedure, should expect to displace me. If the RJ is going, I expect LHS on whatever replaces it in the shorthaul role, be it 737 next year or A320 series later. Seniority be damned.
CPB
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Grandfather rights for Mr Pit Bull
You will find that provided you have the hours (3500 at the last count) the 750 or so CEP's above you on the master seniority list that don't have the minimum hours will have to watch you take the LHS of the RJ's replacement. Grandfather rights will not happen just like they didn't happen when the ATP bases were shut down. You need to be less divisive and more practical (ask BOAC about injustice re Dan Air, perhaps he may guide you to less embittered pastures)
Please do not wander too far down the particularly conspiratorial path by suggesting that your ex CFE history may act against you in future interviews for training positions as you are undermining your more valid points.
Please do not wander too far down the particularly conspiratorial path by suggesting that your ex CFE history may act against you in future interviews for training positions as you are undermining your more valid points.
Last edited by Land ASAP; 17th Apr 2002 at 19:15.
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I'm not interested in comparison between CFE and Dan Air. Those arguements have all be done, I see no point in reiterating.
Essentially, Land ASAP, you seem to saying that future injustices are acceptable because in the past worst injustices occured? If that viewpoint is common, then heaven help all of us.
The training job was just meant to be an example. The point remains however that there is a body of feeling, expressed by amongst others HomerJ, that ex-CFE pilots are not proper members of the BA pilot community as a whole.
That is divisive.
And it is being divided and treated as second class citizens (e.g. the recent 'X-mas' Bonus, or lack therof), that manifests itself in the feelings of unhapiness as evidenced by myself and SS.
Our attitudes are symptoms, not the cause.
CPB
Essentially, Land ASAP, you seem to saying that future injustices are acceptable because in the past worst injustices occured? If that viewpoint is common, then heaven help all of us.
The training job was just meant to be an example. The point remains however that there is a body of feeling, expressed by amongst others HomerJ, that ex-CFE pilots are not proper members of the BA pilot community as a whole.
That is divisive.
And it is being divided and treated as second class citizens (e.g. the recent 'X-mas' Bonus, or lack therof), that manifests itself in the feelings of unhapiness as evidenced by myself and SS.
Our attitudes are symptoms, not the cause.
CPB
Last edited by Capt Pit Bull; 17th Apr 2002 at 20:36.
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Capt Pitbull
I don't see anyone in CFE as being any less of a pilot than the rest. A few I suspect but not all ex-CFE would have been quite happy to remain as CFE and completely seperate from BA. I think i'm probably correct in saying that most are chuffed to bits. I know that the ones I have spoken to are. The opportunities now are far greater than they would ever have been. If I was a low experienced pilot outside of BA in my first job with an airline and then hey-presto I have a seniority number in BA, I would think Chritmas had come. I agree that it seems odd that a low experience co-pilot can be more senior than a captain, but thats only on paper, if you ever fly together your still the boss. It's going to be a long and bitter career for you if you can't just accept that you are now a number and join the queue like everyone else has.
P.S. correct me if i'm wrong but CFE didn't become wholly owned by BA until just a couple of years ago. Where does 1996 come into the equation?
Oh and by the way I also don't qualify for the Xmas holiday payment.
I don't see anyone in CFE as being any less of a pilot than the rest. A few I suspect but not all ex-CFE would have been quite happy to remain as CFE and completely seperate from BA. I think i'm probably correct in saying that most are chuffed to bits. I know that the ones I have spoken to are. The opportunities now are far greater than they would ever have been. If I was a low experienced pilot outside of BA in my first job with an airline and then hey-presto I have a seniority number in BA, I would think Chritmas had come. I agree that it seems odd that a low experience co-pilot can be more senior than a captain, but thats only on paper, if you ever fly together your still the boss. It's going to be a long and bitter career for you if you can't just accept that you are now a number and join the queue like everyone else has.
P.S. correct me if i'm wrong but CFE didn't become wholly owned by BA until just a couple of years ago. Where does 1996 come into the equation?
Oh and by the way I also don't qualify for the Xmas holiday payment.
Last edited by HomerJSimpson; 17th Apr 2002 at 21:00.
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The aggrieved Capt.Pit Bull
CPB I know you find yourself in an unfortunate position and you have many words of sympathy above. Perhaps you should focus on a few harsh realities from the BA mainline perspective.
- There are 7500ish professional pilots in the UK
- About 3500 work for BA
- Up to about 2 years ago BA had the best T&C of any operator in UK and was the employer of choice at the top of any CV list.
- Every CEP position was sought by literally thousands of hopefuls.
- High calibre type-rated DEP candidates were attracted from other airlines as well as pilots ex HM Forces.
- CFE was at that time one of the lowest paid scheduled operators in the country (perhaps THE lowest) and was obliged to draw it's recruits from comensurately lower down the food chain.
Now I am no advocate of BA selection but one wonders just how many of our new colleagues were turned down by BA at application or during selection. OK not 100% applied but I would suggest only a small minority did not for domestic or age reasons.
So when CFE became instantly incorporated into the fold the Selectors immediately threw up their arms in disgust and went home, having wasted the last X years of their time.
Having been handed a BA seniority number on a plate was extremely fortuitous for you and I wish you only the best.
I understand from your earlier post that you took 2 years to command in CFE, please forgive me if that is incorrect. You appear to think that a simple direction to a Command on 737/Airbus will be benignly recieved by the mainline pilot corps?
Or having to jump through a few hoops to retain a training appointment onto another fleet?
On behalf of those who sweated and grafted their way through succesful selection and training I can tell you have seriously misjudged the mood.
- There are 7500ish professional pilots in the UK
- About 3500 work for BA
- Up to about 2 years ago BA had the best T&C of any operator in UK and was the employer of choice at the top of any CV list.
- Every CEP position was sought by literally thousands of hopefuls.
- High calibre type-rated DEP candidates were attracted from other airlines as well as pilots ex HM Forces.
- CFE was at that time one of the lowest paid scheduled operators in the country (perhaps THE lowest) and was obliged to draw it's recruits from comensurately lower down the food chain.
Now I am no advocate of BA selection but one wonders just how many of our new colleagues were turned down by BA at application or during selection. OK not 100% applied but I would suggest only a small minority did not for domestic or age reasons.
So when CFE became instantly incorporated into the fold the Selectors immediately threw up their arms in disgust and went home, having wasted the last X years of their time.
Having been handed a BA seniority number on a plate was extremely fortuitous for you and I wish you only the best.
I understand from your earlier post that you took 2 years to command in CFE, please forgive me if that is incorrect. You appear to think that a simple direction to a Command on 737/Airbus will be benignly recieved by the mainline pilot corps?
Or having to jump through a few hoops to retain a training appointment onto another fleet?
On behalf of those who sweated and grafted their way through succesful selection and training I can tell you have seriously misjudged the mood.
Last edited by Magplug; 18th Apr 2002 at 09:35.
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Hand Solo,
I have not read such a lot of common sense on Pprune for a long time - congratulations!!
I get a little frustrated when some BACE pilots refer to the RJs as 'our 'planes'; what tosh - they are all owned by BA. BA wants them flown as cheaply as possible and if they could get a load of non Nationals to do it at non National rates they would be delighted.
BA refuses to have ALL the BACE pilots on the same list as BA. I agree that I have heard that the BA reps are offering access to the BA Master Seniority List and to share the 146/RJ opportunities. It would seem reasonable for BACE pilots to have exclusive access to the RJ/146s they are bringing to BACE and for BA mainline pilots to have the same rights to the 16RJs being transferred with both communities sharing in any extra RJs.
It is alleged that the BACE captains are preventing any agreement at the expense of the BACE FOs. A correspondent is correct; many of the CE captains are quite happy with what they are doing but many of the FOs want access to the greater BA variety and salaries. It's the FOs who should be telling their reps what they want, not the other way round.
Anyway, it may be for a temporary period only. I am informed that BA wants rid of all the RJ/146s and replaced with new 50/70 seat Embraers/Dorniers so BACE pilots will be flying all of them without any access to the mainline list whatsoever, if they are not careful!
I have not read such a lot of common sense on Pprune for a long time - congratulations!!
I get a little frustrated when some BACE pilots refer to the RJs as 'our 'planes'; what tosh - they are all owned by BA. BA wants them flown as cheaply as possible and if they could get a load of non Nationals to do it at non National rates they would be delighted.
BA refuses to have ALL the BACE pilots on the same list as BA. I agree that I have heard that the BA reps are offering access to the BA Master Seniority List and to share the 146/RJ opportunities. It would seem reasonable for BACE pilots to have exclusive access to the RJ/146s they are bringing to BACE and for BA mainline pilots to have the same rights to the 16RJs being transferred with both communities sharing in any extra RJs.
It is alleged that the BACE captains are preventing any agreement at the expense of the BACE FOs. A correspondent is correct; many of the CE captains are quite happy with what they are doing but many of the FOs want access to the greater BA variety and salaries. It's the FOs who should be telling their reps what they want, not the other way round.
Anyway, it may be for a temporary period only. I am informed that BA wants rid of all the RJ/146s and replaced with new 50/70 seat Embraers/Dorniers so BACE pilots will be flying all of them without any access to the mainline list whatsoever, if they are not careful!
In my long and happy flying career, I have never ceased to be amazed at what a happy and united bunch of chaps we have in BA.
I really have been very lucky for I have never had to work for BA or Saudia. I was one of the early chaps to be offered a place at Hamble but I had a serious outbreak of common sense and joined the Royal Air Force instead. I probably didn't earn so much money but I had a hell of a lot more fun. I've made up for the money bit since in my civilian career.
If you BA chaps stopped tearing chunks out of one another you could actually have a good thing going for you. Be nice to one another!
I really have been very lucky for I have never had to work for BA or Saudia. I was one of the early chaps to be offered a place at Hamble but I had a serious outbreak of common sense and joined the Royal Air Force instead. I probably didn't earn so much money but I had a hell of a lot more fun. I've made up for the money bit since in my civilian career.
If you BA chaps stopped tearing chunks out of one another you could actually have a good thing going for you. Be nice to one another!
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Just to let you know that we all don't feel as miffed as CPB - I am pleased as punch to be given the fantastic opportunity to be able to fly for BA - I know the companys going through a bit of a low at the moment but I really feel if we stop this completely pointless bickering and pull together instead of apart we might actually get somewhere. Hand - Keep up the good work!!
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This thread clearly re-illustrates for many flight crew why working for BA is a bad idea if one discounts remuneration.
Ignoring pay this company has cabin crew who hate flight crew with management that hate them all. The front line all works to support a bloated management that manage very little for a lot of money. The unions frustrate any move to obviously required change.
Oh what a lovely company to spend 12 duty hours a day in. Not.
Never underestimate the value of going to work in a company where the manaement are nice enough and the cabin crew are a happy enthusiastic bunch. Add in an FO who likes working for the company and is keen for his readily obtainable Command and you have aeroplane heaven.
Turning to BA T&C's - well take a 25 year old BA FO who has just one fleet change to widebody and compare her to 25 year old starter in easyJet. Factor in the LHR vs LUT house price and over a career to 60 the person working for Stelios will be better off. Dissregarding the easyJet share scheme.
The BA pension is only a promise. It can be broken. The pension one can get personally cannot. The pay differential compensates.
BA is FUBAR'd for future SERIOUS recruitment unless they improve their T&C's.
Which I think they will do. Shortly.
PS
Ignoring pay this company has cabin crew who hate flight crew with management that hate them all. The front line all works to support a bloated management that manage very little for a lot of money. The unions frustrate any move to obviously required change.
Oh what a lovely company to spend 12 duty hours a day in. Not.
Never underestimate the value of going to work in a company where the manaement are nice enough and the cabin crew are a happy enthusiastic bunch. Add in an FO who likes working for the company and is keen for his readily obtainable Command and you have aeroplane heaven.
Turning to BA T&C's - well take a 25 year old BA FO who has just one fleet change to widebody and compare her to 25 year old starter in easyJet. Factor in the LHR vs LUT house price and over a career to 60 the person working for Stelios will be better off. Dissregarding the easyJet share scheme.
The BA pension is only a promise. It can be broken. The pension one can get personally cannot. The pay differential compensates.
BA is FUBAR'd for future SERIOUS recruitment unless they improve their T&C's.
Which I think they will do. Shortly.
PS
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You may as well recognise reality Hand Solo, HomerJ and the like. We already operate 146s, and if you truly think BA management will have a fleet partly operated by high cost mainline guys, and partly by us profitable dudes, you really.......must have passed the BA Lego test.
You chaps really do live in another galaxy don't you? It's easy to see how much CRM and Leadership, community spirit etc etc you have by the way you have Secret Squirrel and Capt. PB reacting. Your well known patronising attitude is merely amusing, -
(some of us were instructing on fast jets when you had trainer wheels on your bicycle!)
- but sad.
Grow up and smell the roses. BALPA will not even squeak over the ex CFE blokes currently flying the RJs. They will sell them down the river over some sort of deal for the 'real' mainliners. We WILL have the RJS, and I'll wager that those of CFE that come to work with us will have a happier and more secure future than the ones who stay at Gatwick. (We don't hate our cabin crew, we rather like them) For those who DO stay at LGW, my sympathy is all with Secret Squirrel . Good luck mate, you have all our support, and you will, I am sure, retain your command over some spotty faced erk who can build a lego tower. Anyone who followed the threads on the CFE integration will be familiar with the nauseating hypocrisy coming from the mainliners, and the inevitability of the way a lot of good guys were screwed royally. Now they think they will do it to BRAL/Manx, anothe profitable and (relatively) happy independent sucked into BA. The extent of the BALPA involvement in the so called imaginary SCOPE can be seen from the amount of comms between mainline BALPA and our CC. ZILCH. Looking after their own. Again! Do you REALLY think BA management will let you set a precedent on a costly exercise like Scope? Scotty may very well actually beam you up before THAT happens.
And as a final note on the so called BA pilot skills......funny thing our sim chop rate has accelerated dramatically since we started taking the BA 'product'.
Nothing personal guys, just fact.
You chaps really do live in another galaxy don't you? It's easy to see how much CRM and Leadership, community spirit etc etc you have by the way you have Secret Squirrel and Capt. PB reacting. Your well known patronising attitude is merely amusing, -
(some of us were instructing on fast jets when you had trainer wheels on your bicycle!)
- but sad.
Grow up and smell the roses. BALPA will not even squeak over the ex CFE blokes currently flying the RJs. They will sell them down the river over some sort of deal for the 'real' mainliners. We WILL have the RJS, and I'll wager that those of CFE that come to work with us will have a happier and more secure future than the ones who stay at Gatwick. (We don't hate our cabin crew, we rather like them) For those who DO stay at LGW, my sympathy is all with Secret Squirrel . Good luck mate, you have all our support, and you will, I am sure, retain your command over some spotty faced erk who can build a lego tower. Anyone who followed the threads on the CFE integration will be familiar with the nauseating hypocrisy coming from the mainliners, and the inevitability of the way a lot of good guys were screwed royally. Now they think they will do it to BRAL/Manx, anothe profitable and (relatively) happy independent sucked into BA. The extent of the BALPA involvement in the so called imaginary SCOPE can be seen from the amount of comms between mainline BALPA and our CC. ZILCH. Looking after their own. Again! Do you REALLY think BA management will let you set a precedent on a costly exercise like Scope? Scotty may very well actually beam you up before THAT happens.
And as a final note on the so called BA pilot skills......funny thing our sim chop rate has accelerated dramatically since we started taking the BA 'product'.
Nothing personal guys, just fact.
Last edited by The Little Prince; 18th Apr 2002 at 19:28.
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Little Prince:
With a handle like that I enjoyed reading your fairy tale. Your posting is pure management, or wannabe management - trainer are you?
I quote <a fleet partly operated by high cost mainline guys, and partly by us profitable dudes>
So mainline pilots=unprofitable eh?
I think you'll find that the profitability of an airline has little to do with pilot pay. You spout BS and you know it.
There are two kinds of postings on here, those which seek to IMPROVE T's & C's and those which seek to drag them down. You appear to fall firmly in the latter camp and you should now own up as the management plant you undoubtedly must be.
PS Prince, had it occurred to you that we are all in this together to improve our collective lot?
With a handle like that I enjoyed reading your fairy tale. Your posting is pure management, or wannabe management - trainer are you?
I quote <a fleet partly operated by high cost mainline guys, and partly by us profitable dudes>
So mainline pilots=unprofitable eh?
I think you'll find that the profitability of an airline has little to do with pilot pay. You spout BS and you know it.
There are two kinds of postings on here, those which seek to IMPROVE T's & C's and those which seek to drag them down. You appear to fall firmly in the latter camp and you should now own up as the management plant you undoubtedly must be.
PS Prince, had it occurred to you that we are all in this together to improve our collective lot?
Last edited by overstress; 18th Apr 2002 at 20:10.