RJ 100s at BA EOG
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RJ 100s at BA EOG
What's the long term plan for the ex CFE RJ 100s, are they being sold or moved to the regions? If so what are the crews likely to be transferred onto? While I'm at it - what's also happening with the ATR fleet?
Cheers.
Cheers.
Last edited by Crosswind Limits; 13th Apr 2002 at 18:42.
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The RJ's are in the process of being transfered over to CitiExpress in Man & Bhx, operated initially by CitiFlyer flightdeck and then subject to BA/Balpa negotiations by CitiExpress crew
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Some problems with the scope clauses as they are over 100 seats, so can they be operated by BACE crews without causing a union uprising. (And we all know the unions run BA !!)
Also I understand the RJ's must remain on the separate CityFlyer AOC as it would cost too much to transfer them to BA's AOC due to CityFlyer having a better credit rating with the lessors!
ATR's likely to remain for another 15-18 months?
Also I understand the RJ's must remain on the separate CityFlyer AOC as it would cost too much to transfer them to BA's AOC due to CityFlyer having a better credit rating with the lessors!
ATR's likely to remain for another 15-18 months?
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Yep the unions run BA, except BALPA which is walked all over. We don't have a scope clause in BA, which is why they can transfer the jobs of 150 pilots in the regions to a low cost subsidiary.
THE UNIONS RUN BA?
MY A**E!
When the RJ100s come to MAN the remaining 40 engineers, (that is the ones left over after the hangar closure) will be looking for work elsewhere as the RJ work will be going to Manx/BRAL engineering.
Effectively a fleet change with the work farmed out to the lowest bidder.
BA Licensed Engineer: average salary, £35000 + good pension/staff travel etc.
BA CitiExpress Engineer: average salary, £27000, no pension scheme worth a damn, diluted staff travel.
So don't tell me that the unions run BA!!!
MY A**E!
When the RJ100s come to MAN the remaining 40 engineers, (that is the ones left over after the hangar closure) will be looking for work elsewhere as the RJ work will be going to Manx/BRAL engineering.
Effectively a fleet change with the work farmed out to the lowest bidder.
BA Licensed Engineer: average salary, £35000 + good pension/staff travel etc.
BA CitiExpress Engineer: average salary, £27000, no pension scheme worth a damn, diluted staff travel.
So don't tell me that the unions run BA!!!
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BACE might be hiring in the future, but it better not be for the RJ's, I want to fly one!! The aircraft will be put on the BACE AOC, it would have been a complete waste of money to transfer them from CFE-BA, and then to BACE, and neither BACE nor BA is awash with cash at the moment, although things are'nt quite as bad as some like to make out.
Pilots in general can only benefit from these aircraft being flown by BA pilots.
If BA pilots fly them, this means more (relatively) well paid jobs than if BRAL fly them. Maybe the prospects within BRAL would not be so good, but overall pilots end up better off.
It is really important that BALPA fight to keep these seats from going to the lowest paid bidder. How would you like it BRAL if your work was given to someone offering to do it cheaper?
If BA pilots fly them, this means more (relatively) well paid jobs than if BRAL fly them. Maybe the prospects within BRAL would not be so good, but overall pilots end up better off.
It is really important that BALPA fight to keep these seats from going to the lowest paid bidder. How would you like it BRAL if your work was given to someone offering to do it cheaper?
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Not quite the case bral. BAR pilots receive a largely unwanted, enforced transfer to London. RJ initially crewed by LGW crews who then are phased out to make way for BACE pilots. Net result, 150 new jobs for BACE pilots, 150 less jobs for BA mainline pilots. Despite what BA say they have no plans to run down the regions, they simply want to slash costs by farming out the flight crew jobs and forcing the cabin crew to take a massive pay cut to BACE terms. Furthermore, why shouldn't BALPA restrict your access to larger aircraft? If BA wants to operate large aircraft in its colours it should employ BA pilots to do it. How would you feel if the BACE management told you that you were too expensive and they were about to eliminate your jobs and replace you with BA cadets on much lower salaries? In that instance I'd suspect you'd want BALPA to put a stop to it. The reason for scope agreements is to protect standards over the whole community, rather than allow cynical managers to constantly farm out work to the lowest bidders.
Hand solo , your name says it all..
I agree with bral. Why should Ba pilots be allowed to impose a scope clause on an independent company?
If Ba pilots are worried then it shows that some of them have some common sense, unlike you.
Small aircraft that the regions require cannot support large salaries or inflated egos .
I agree with bral. Why should Ba pilots be allowed to impose a scope clause on an independent company?
If Ba pilots are worried then it shows that some of them have some common sense, unlike you.
Small aircraft that the regions require cannot support large salaries or inflated egos .
Last edited by 145qrh; 14th Apr 2002 at 18:54.
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Indeed why should BA pilots be able to impose a scope clause on an independent company? I don't think they should and will welcome the day that BACE is a wholly independent company. Then they can have whatever aircraft they want. But whilst they're a wholly owned subsidiary flying in British Airways colours with BA flight numbers then their on our patch. This may amaze you, but BA has got to be succesful because of the hard work of its employees. Sure, the company got a lot of breaks after privatisation, but it didn't go the way of Olympic, or Sabena, did it? It is one of the biggest airlines in the world and it got there entirely due to the efforts of all the staff to ensure that BA is a reliable, punctual, high quality, safe and trusted airline. That position is in no small part due to the flying staff of BA who have invested their future in the company. It may further surprise you that in the regions BA pilots work under the hardest, most productive scheduling regimes in the company, as do the cabin crew, and many of the ground staff took a pay cut to ensure the bases had a future within BA and to fund 26 new A319s for the regions.
Then what do you know? After all that effort, Johnny-Come-Lately CitiExpress turn up and say 'I want your base, your routes, your aircraft, your customers, your brand and your opportunites. Why? Because I'm cheaper'. And that is the crux of the issue. You want the opportunites BA staff worked hard to build, whilst you've contributed nothing except an annual franchise fee. Its BA staff who built that network and its their right to expect access to the opportunities they've built for themselves. You want to fly a 100 seater? Then fine, call yourself BRAL, take the BA colours off your aircraft and go find your own customers. But whilst you cosy on in flying our livery and helping yourself to our customers then you can expect opposition from the BA pilot body. You may think your current airline is only temporary employment and one day you might hope to move onto bigger or better things elsewhere. Well there aren't many elsewheres left in the UK, and by opposing this creeping outsourcing to cheap labour we're trying to ensure that there are still better opportunities around for those who might want them, rather than working for peanuts 'cos the lowest bidder always wins.
Then what do you know? After all that effort, Johnny-Come-Lately CitiExpress turn up and say 'I want your base, your routes, your aircraft, your customers, your brand and your opportunites. Why? Because I'm cheaper'. And that is the crux of the issue. You want the opportunites BA staff worked hard to build, whilst you've contributed nothing except an annual franchise fee. Its BA staff who built that network and its their right to expect access to the opportunities they've built for themselves. You want to fly a 100 seater? Then fine, call yourself BRAL, take the BA colours off your aircraft and go find your own customers. But whilst you cosy on in flying our livery and helping yourself to our customers then you can expect opposition from the BA pilot body. You may think your current airline is only temporary employment and one day you might hope to move onto bigger or better things elsewhere. Well there aren't many elsewheres left in the UK, and by opposing this creeping outsourcing to cheap labour we're trying to ensure that there are still better opportunities around for those who might want them, rather than working for peanuts 'cos the lowest bidder always wins.
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Hand Solo, we currently have hot and cold running BA cadets joining our TP fleets. The message we're being fed is that we're all part of the same big happy BA group. Now, I've crossed swords with yourself and others on this in the past and was presented with the idea then that scope would be wonderful for us BACE chappies and that we should stop moaning and undercutting you and get on with it in our pokey little rat-hole of an airline. Well, I've come round to your way of thinking, at least on the undercutting bit, and I don't believe we should be paid any less than yourselves to operate these aircraft.
You seem irritated by our attitudes and desires. A couple of points. While some of us will walk on to bigger and better things, a lot of our pilots stay with company because they like their locality and aren't driven by a burning desire to fly heavier and faster aircraft. Also we were quite happily going along, paddling our own canoe. We didn't ask to be bought out by BA. There will also be an anomoly in that BACE pilots and BA pilots will be flying essentially a similar type, 146 v's RJ100 on two different sets of conditions. I can also say that this isn't an open invitation for you to pinch the 146 jobs for yourselves either.
We are told that the grown ups want these aircraft to be flown on the BACE cost-base. I'd be interested to see what part of this cost-base is made up of crew salaries. If the BA pilot body genuinely wanted to sort this problem out they would be discussing this with the BACE pilots and presenting a united front to our overall bosses. For those who say that it would be wrongto assimilate BACE, a precedent has been set by Cityflyer being fully absorbed into BA mainline. The simplest way of preventing your colleagues from having to relocate would be to have both sets of pilots flying on the same Ts and Cs. There is a genuine feeling in BACE that we're being shafted. While you snipe at us and treat us like second rate citizens isn't it any suprise that we really don't feel any solidarity with you or much sympathy with the predicament of your BAR colleagues?
You seem irritated by our attitudes and desires. A couple of points. While some of us will walk on to bigger and better things, a lot of our pilots stay with company because they like their locality and aren't driven by a burning desire to fly heavier and faster aircraft. Also we were quite happily going along, paddling our own canoe. We didn't ask to be bought out by BA. There will also be an anomoly in that BACE pilots and BA pilots will be flying essentially a similar type, 146 v's RJ100 on two different sets of conditions. I can also say that this isn't an open invitation for you to pinch the 146 jobs for yourselves either.
We are told that the grown ups want these aircraft to be flown on the BACE cost-base. I'd be interested to see what part of this cost-base is made up of crew salaries. If the BA pilot body genuinely wanted to sort this problem out they would be discussing this with the BACE pilots and presenting a united front to our overall bosses. For those who say that it would be wrongto assimilate BACE, a precedent has been set by Cityflyer being fully absorbed into BA mainline. The simplest way of preventing your colleagues from having to relocate would be to have both sets of pilots flying on the same Ts and Cs. There is a genuine feeling in BACE that we're being shafted. While you snipe at us and treat us like second rate citizens isn't it any suprise that we really don't feel any solidarity with you or much sympathy with the predicament of your BAR colleagues?
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Hand.
Maybe i'm missing a trick here, and if so please explain. It seems to me that it was British Airways who created the franchises and not the franchise holders. the reason BA did this was so that routes which they could not make money on themselves (amongst the reasons for which is he large sums paid to (for example) BAR in salaries and of course allowances) could continue to be operated and maybe even make a buck for the lower cost franchise operator. roger so far?
Now that BA is even deeper in the doo-doo than it previously was, the steps it must take to stay in business are getting more extreme and its difficult to criticise them for getting BACE which lets face it, is very much part of BA now, to operate more and more aircraft and routes.
At least no one is getting 'let go' from the flight deck whereas there are large numbers of people around who are ex BA and looking for a new job. That could change if things don't improve.
While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think you can expect a lot of sympathy outside of BA. Could i just ask you tho' do you think BACE is too cheap? or do you think maybe you guys and gals are maybe just a bit too dear?
Maybe i'm missing a trick here, and if so please explain. It seems to me that it was British Airways who created the franchises and not the franchise holders. the reason BA did this was so that routes which they could not make money on themselves (amongst the reasons for which is he large sums paid to (for example) BAR in salaries and of course allowances) could continue to be operated and maybe even make a buck for the lower cost franchise operator. roger so far?
Now that BA is even deeper in the doo-doo than it previously was, the steps it must take to stay in business are getting more extreme and its difficult to criticise them for getting BACE which lets face it, is very much part of BA now, to operate more and more aircraft and routes.
At least no one is getting 'let go' from the flight deck whereas there are large numbers of people around who are ex BA and looking for a new job. That could change if things don't improve.
While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think you can expect a lot of sympathy outside of BA. Could i just ask you tho' do you think BACE is too cheap? or do you think maybe you guys and gals are maybe just a bit too dear?
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Well by your post CLAD it seems we share some fairly similar viewpoints. I do not believe you are second class citizens. I do not believe you should be paid less than BA pilots for operating the same type. To have such a situation merely invites BACE to set up yet another subsidiary on lower pay still and then shaft you with it. Furthermore, I understand BALPA have ambitions to get BACE onto some form of seniority list/ T & Cs with BA mainline, though I suspect that BA management will fight tooth and nail to prevent that. I don't think anyone in BA thinks its wrong to assimilate BACE in the same way CFE were.
I can fully understand the desire not to move on to pastures new if you particularly enjoy being where you are. What does irk me is that some people seem to think BA pilots don't feel the same way. There are many people who've been in the regions for donkeys years and have no desire to move. BAs decision not to allow BA pilots to fly what are still BA (or CFE) aircraft means families are going to be uprooted and vast expenses are going to be incurred moving to the south east, whilst those who can't or won't move will see their quality of life ruined by endless commuting and lonely nights stuck in B&Bs in the LHR area. Unfortunately, this is usually overlooked as greedy nigel obviously only wants to hang on the aircraft for cash/ego purposes. What also irks is the occasional assertion by some people that they have a divine right to take BA work or aircraft as they are 'so much more efficient', a viewpoint which seems to stem more from envy than any actual knowledge.
You also seem to share my cynicism on the companies accounting practices! Its a standard BA technique to lay all failures at the door of the overpaid pilots (representing a huge 4% of all BAs costs as we do), and once again we see this technique being applied in the regions. My suspiscion is that very little of the overall running costs of BAR is attributable to flight crew, and my belief is that management are pulling a fast one in their crusade to reduce pilots pay to zero. It probably is the case that the RJ100 is a more economical aircraft to operate from the regional bases, but the wholesale transfer of these aircraft to BACE is part of a political rather than an economic agenda. Until we can improve your T & Cs to our levels, we are compelled to oppose the transfer to prevent our T&Cs being reduced to your levels because thats a lose - lose situation for both of us.
Brain fade - beware of falling into the BA propaganda trap that all blame rests at pilots salaries. BAs accounting is a nebulous beast. The franchises do pay a franchise fee, but what is that fee, and does it truly represent value for money for BA? We are told that franchises are cheaper, but who is paying for the customer service staff, the advertising and branding, the product development, the customer loyalty programs, the head office staff, the 24 hr telesales centre and website, and so on and so forth. Franchises do work well when you have a thin route that couldn't be operated by a BA aircraft - it provides access to passengers that we would otherwise not have. The problems arise when you suddenly have franchises operating aircraft that BA operate. Examples:
1. BA operates 120 seat A319s at BHX which sometimes have low utilitsation. On the next stand a franchise operates 120 seat 737 to Belfast? Best use of BA resources?
2. BA operates 767 to Baku and Almaty. BA decides it cannot make money so franchise takes over operating A320. One year later BA has burgeoning fleet of A320s that could operate Baku and Almaty but franchise still has route from the same base? Is this the best way to grow our network?
3. BA pulls off LGW-MPL route on a 737 as it can't turn a profit. The very next day franchise begins 737 LGW-MPL route. Said franchise is charged £300 for a 737 turnaround by BA ground handlers, the going rate. BA 737 is charged £1000 by same handlers for same turn around because it is a captive customer. Are inefficiencies in other parts of the company skewing the profitability of BAs flight ops?
These are just three examples of why it is just not possible to believe the figures which the company come out with to justify there franchising/outsourcing, call it what you will. I appreciate we must sound completely paranoid to outsiders, but BA BALPA are fighting a continous rear-guard action to fend off a string of managers who fiddle with flight crew careers while Rome burns around them.
Right well that was a long post, better go and take my pills now.
I can fully understand the desire not to move on to pastures new if you particularly enjoy being where you are. What does irk me is that some people seem to think BA pilots don't feel the same way. There are many people who've been in the regions for donkeys years and have no desire to move. BAs decision not to allow BA pilots to fly what are still BA (or CFE) aircraft means families are going to be uprooted and vast expenses are going to be incurred moving to the south east, whilst those who can't or won't move will see their quality of life ruined by endless commuting and lonely nights stuck in B&Bs in the LHR area. Unfortunately, this is usually overlooked as greedy nigel obviously only wants to hang on the aircraft for cash/ego purposes. What also irks is the occasional assertion by some people that they have a divine right to take BA work or aircraft as they are 'so much more efficient', a viewpoint which seems to stem more from envy than any actual knowledge.
You also seem to share my cynicism on the companies accounting practices! Its a standard BA technique to lay all failures at the door of the overpaid pilots (representing a huge 4% of all BAs costs as we do), and once again we see this technique being applied in the regions. My suspiscion is that very little of the overall running costs of BAR is attributable to flight crew, and my belief is that management are pulling a fast one in their crusade to reduce pilots pay to zero. It probably is the case that the RJ100 is a more economical aircraft to operate from the regional bases, but the wholesale transfer of these aircraft to BACE is part of a political rather than an economic agenda. Until we can improve your T & Cs to our levels, we are compelled to oppose the transfer to prevent our T&Cs being reduced to your levels because thats a lose - lose situation for both of us.
Brain fade - beware of falling into the BA propaganda trap that all blame rests at pilots salaries. BAs accounting is a nebulous beast. The franchises do pay a franchise fee, but what is that fee, and does it truly represent value for money for BA? We are told that franchises are cheaper, but who is paying for the customer service staff, the advertising and branding, the product development, the customer loyalty programs, the head office staff, the 24 hr telesales centre and website, and so on and so forth. Franchises do work well when you have a thin route that couldn't be operated by a BA aircraft - it provides access to passengers that we would otherwise not have. The problems arise when you suddenly have franchises operating aircraft that BA operate. Examples:
1. BA operates 120 seat A319s at BHX which sometimes have low utilitsation. On the next stand a franchise operates 120 seat 737 to Belfast? Best use of BA resources?
2. BA operates 767 to Baku and Almaty. BA decides it cannot make money so franchise takes over operating A320. One year later BA has burgeoning fleet of A320s that could operate Baku and Almaty but franchise still has route from the same base? Is this the best way to grow our network?
3. BA pulls off LGW-MPL route on a 737 as it can't turn a profit. The very next day franchise begins 737 LGW-MPL route. Said franchise is charged £300 for a 737 turnaround by BA ground handlers, the going rate. BA 737 is charged £1000 by same handlers for same turn around because it is a captive customer. Are inefficiencies in other parts of the company skewing the profitability of BAs flight ops?
These are just three examples of why it is just not possible to believe the figures which the company come out with to justify there franchising/outsourcing, call it what you will. I appreciate we must sound completely paranoid to outsiders, but BA BALPA are fighting a continous rear-guard action to fend off a string of managers who fiddle with flight crew careers while Rome burns around them.
Right well that was a long post, better go and take my pills now.
Last edited by Hand Solo; 14th Apr 2002 at 21:08.
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Very predictable, Hand Solo. Your attitude is the usual one presented by BA mainline. Its not so much that your theory of wanting to maintain your Ts and Cs is wrong, it's just that your tenuous grasp on reality is insulting. If you look around the shorthaul route network, you will see an ever increasing amount of work being taken by the Lo Cost boys. This is not because the pax prefer their paint jobs, it is because they are CHEAPER.
At BRAL, MANX, CITIEXPRESS, whatever you wish to call us, we are cheaper, and much more profitable than BAR.
(Have BAR ever indeed been profitable?????)
So, if we don't take your business, (in RJs, Embs, or Fireball XL5), it's as sure as the pope is a Catholic that someone will. I have always regarded BA as being the benchmark for Airline Pilot salaries. I did when I was in the RAF, and I still do. The thing is though, unless you let common sense percolate into your attitude, you will end up like British Leyland, RootesGroup, the Coal Board, and many other industries where short sighted unions f###ed up the whole deal. Virgin, BMi, not to mention the Americans are just slavering at the chance to get more of a longhaul toehold, with the cheepies already two feet in the door in our business. Your response doesn't seem to acknowledge that somehow, our own business was amalgamated with BAR, and we instantly started issuing profit warnings.
I don't expect you to agree, far less understand - - but get it through your head that if BAR costs are not lowered, there will BE no regional flying for anyone. Just look at what your airline did to CFE. A small operator, highly profitable airline, (just like us) was bought by BA, and put on BA Ts and Cs, and management practices. Do you have the ability to guess why those self same routes then started to lose money? Tricky really, isn't it, or is your opinion still that this was all propaganda started by the big bad management?
GET A LIFE!!!!!
At BRAL, MANX, CITIEXPRESS, whatever you wish to call us, we are cheaper, and much more profitable than BAR.
(Have BAR ever indeed been profitable?????)
So, if we don't take your business, (in RJs, Embs, or Fireball XL5), it's as sure as the pope is a Catholic that someone will. I have always regarded BA as being the benchmark for Airline Pilot salaries. I did when I was in the RAF, and I still do. The thing is though, unless you let common sense percolate into your attitude, you will end up like British Leyland, RootesGroup, the Coal Board, and many other industries where short sighted unions f###ed up the whole deal. Virgin, BMi, not to mention the Americans are just slavering at the chance to get more of a longhaul toehold, with the cheepies already two feet in the door in our business. Your response doesn't seem to acknowledge that somehow, our own business was amalgamated with BAR, and we instantly started issuing profit warnings.
I don't expect you to agree, far less understand -
- but get it through your head that if BAR costs are not lowered, there will BE no regional flying for anyone. Just look at what your airline did to CFE. A small operator, highly profitable airline, (just like us) was bought by BA, and put on BA Ts and Cs, and management practices. Do you have the ability to guess why those self same routes then started to lose money? Tricky really, isn't it, or is your opinion still that this was all propaganda started by the big bad management?GET A LIFE!!!!!
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Hand Solo
All you have said regarding the efforts of BAR flightdeck/cabin crew has been mirrored by us in Brymon/BRAL. Both airlines have come from very modest roots and with none of the technical/financial backing BAR receivied and have become extremely sucessful (both airlines posted profits close to ten million each before the mearger, I understand that BAR has not posted a profit for some time although I may be quite incorrect). The only reason BA issues franchise to the likes of us is to benefit themselves, many of the routes were already being operated extremely successfully by Brymon/BRAL. My experience of BAR certainly illustrated to me why it is running at a loss. The cabin crew are not resposible for security checking seat pockets etc (has to subcontracted) and do not open service doors etc! extraodinary! This was just a peek. Although I too do not wish to see reasonable Ts & Cs degraded we do have to remember that at the end of the day BA has to make money and it certainly isn't. We are extremely privelidged to enjoy this profession but it doesn't give us the right to dictate the future of a company while blindly motivated by personal gain.
My opinion, and it's your right to disagree!
Regards.
All you have said regarding the efforts of BAR flightdeck/cabin crew has been mirrored by us in Brymon/BRAL. Both airlines have come from very modest roots and with none of the technical/financial backing BAR receivied and have become extremely sucessful (both airlines posted profits close to ten million each before the mearger, I understand that BAR has not posted a profit for some time although I may be quite incorrect). The only reason BA issues franchise to the likes of us is to benefit themselves, many of the routes were already being operated extremely successfully by Brymon/BRAL. My experience of BAR certainly illustrated to me why it is running at a loss. The cabin crew are not resposible for security checking seat pockets etc (has to subcontracted) and do not open service doors etc! extraodinary! This was just a peek. Although I too do not wish to see reasonable Ts & Cs degraded we do have to remember that at the end of the day BA has to make money and it certainly isn't. We are extremely privelidged to enjoy this profession but it doesn't give us the right to dictate the future of a company while blindly motivated by personal gain.
My opinion, and it's your right to disagree!
Regards.
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Doh! You've taken the management pill James, haven't you! Have you understood anything I've said? OK lets explain this in simple steps for you.
1) Nobody's making any money at the moment except the low fares airlines.
2) You are not a low fares airline. You are a low pay airline. They are not the same.
3) Your fares are high, which means your pax are also going to switch to low fares airlines. Add in the concerns about the economy and 911 and there's a profits warning for you. It may be coincidental that it occurred at the same time as BA taking over you, but such is life.
4) BAR is profitable and has been for some time. BHX is very profitable, MAN is suffering due to high costs associated with MAN airport and competition from Easy at LPL. The franchises aren't doing terribly well at MAN either.
5) You may be proud of 'taking our business'. You haven't taken it, it's been given to you by BA management. If your so proud of your Embraers ask the ground staff what the passengers think of them, and why so many prefer to change their flight time so that they can fly on a large aircraft. Without the RJs arriving they'd all defect to LH/AF/UK.
6) BA is not the benchmark for airline salaries. Starting today at a major airline your earnings would be far higher at Easy, Ryanair or Go, either as a CEP or DEP. Our pilots are paid below market rate, which is tacitly acknowledged by the BA board, who also extol to the City the virtues of the cheapest long-haul flight crew of any major airline in the western world.
7) BA is flying round full aircraft, with junior flight crew on market or below rates and senior flight crew operating the cheapest long haul operation going. Safely. Punctually. Reliably. What else would you like us to do?
8) BA pilots haven't been on strike for ages, which makes us entirely different from the defunct British monoliths you care to mention. Nor do we work to rule.
9) I don't expect you to agree , far less understand. Your pre-conceptions and stereotypes speak volumes. You do yourself a disservice by associating managerial and strategic failure with workforce wages. The guys at Easy, Go, Southwest et al are well rewarded and their companies go from strength to strength. Now that you have the BACE management team on board I'm sure you'll be the first to embrace their strategy of'work more, get less'. But only for you that is.
Next time you find yourself on board a BA aircraft, or catch up with your ex-RAF mates who flt for BA, why not ask them what its really like in the company. You might even learn something.
Further edit for facts:
Bendy Lady - BAR cabin crew don't check seat backs because the cleaners do it when they clean the aircraft. And a very good job of it they do whilst the cabin crew check the catering, carry out their own SEP checks and find a moment to eat. They don't open service doors because BA policy is that no aircraft doors are opened unless there's a platform in place outside. You may think this is daft, but when one of the caterers fell off a 319 last year he spend a very long time in intensive care. As stated above, BAR are profitable,I think £10 million profit in a recent year which is as much as Brymon.
bral - Great. Inverness is a perfect example of what happens when franchises work. The EOG RJ crew may be able to stay at LGW, but because of seniority issues arising from the merger the Captains are likely to lose their commands. The pilots at BHX/MAN are on mainline contracts, but they are not LHR based. They are regionally based and many have never operated out of LHR or have any desire to do so. There may be jobs available at LHR, but thats not where they're from or where they want to be. They too like the locality and have no desire for heavier or faster aircraft. There's probably an RJ job for you in the SW of England, but do you want to move there? Don't believe what the cabin crew tell you about allowances. £200 per night? You could get a whole cabin crew on a split duty for that, and although the allowances are higher, the basic pay is considerably lower. I don't think BALPA should necessarily stop you flying a 110 seater, but I don't think the company should be allowed to transfer 16 aircraft from the BA/CFE register to BACE just because they have an un-costed, 'finger in the air' feeling about it (I know you won't believe that but that was the stated basis of the decision for transferring RJs to MAN!). If you think thats OK, then tell me why we shouldn't transfer the entire embraer fleet to a low-paying air taxi operator? After all, there's work for you elsewhere and it'll improve the companies bottom line.
1) Nobody's making any money at the moment except the low fares airlines.
2) You are not a low fares airline. You are a low pay airline. They are not the same.
3) Your fares are high, which means your pax are also going to switch to low fares airlines. Add in the concerns about the economy and 911 and there's a profits warning for you. It may be coincidental that it occurred at the same time as BA taking over you, but such is life.
4) BAR is profitable and has been for some time. BHX is very profitable, MAN is suffering due to high costs associated with MAN airport and competition from Easy at LPL. The franchises aren't doing terribly well at MAN either.
5) You may be proud of 'taking our business'. You haven't taken it, it's been given to you by BA management. If your so proud of your Embraers ask the ground staff what the passengers think of them, and why so many prefer to change their flight time so that they can fly on a large aircraft. Without the RJs arriving they'd all defect to LH/AF/UK.
6) BA is not the benchmark for airline salaries. Starting today at a major airline your earnings would be far higher at Easy, Ryanair or Go, either as a CEP or DEP. Our pilots are paid below market rate, which is tacitly acknowledged by the BA board, who also extol to the City the virtues of the cheapest long-haul flight crew of any major airline in the western world.
7) BA is flying round full aircraft, with junior flight crew on market or below rates and senior flight crew operating the cheapest long haul operation going. Safely. Punctually. Reliably. What else would you like us to do?
8) BA pilots haven't been on strike for ages, which makes us entirely different from the defunct British monoliths you care to mention. Nor do we work to rule.
9) I don't expect you to agree , far less understand. Your pre-conceptions and stereotypes speak volumes. You do yourself a disservice by associating managerial and strategic failure with workforce wages. The guys at Easy, Go, Southwest et al are well rewarded and their companies go from strength to strength. Now that you have the BACE management team on board I'm sure you'll be the first to embrace their strategy of'work more, get less'. But only for you that is.
Next time you find yourself on board a BA aircraft, or catch up with your ex-RAF mates who flt for BA, why not ask them what its really like in the company. You might even learn something.
Further edit for facts:
Bendy Lady - BAR cabin crew don't check seat backs because the cleaners do it when they clean the aircraft. And a very good job of it they do whilst the cabin crew check the catering, carry out their own SEP checks and find a moment to eat. They don't open service doors because BA policy is that no aircraft doors are opened unless there's a platform in place outside. You may think this is daft, but when one of the caterers fell off a 319 last year he spend a very long time in intensive care. As stated above, BAR are profitable,I think £10 million profit in a recent year which is as much as Brymon.
bral - Great. Inverness is a perfect example of what happens when franchises work. The EOG RJ crew may be able to stay at LGW, but because of seniority issues arising from the merger the Captains are likely to lose their commands. The pilots at BHX/MAN are on mainline contracts, but they are not LHR based. They are regionally based and many have never operated out of LHR or have any desire to do so. There may be jobs available at LHR, but thats not where they're from or where they want to be. They too like the locality and have no desire for heavier or faster aircraft. There's probably an RJ job for you in the SW of England, but do you want to move there? Don't believe what the cabin crew tell you about allowances. £200 per night? You could get a whole cabin crew on a split duty for that, and although the allowances are higher, the basic pay is considerably lower. I don't think BALPA should necessarily stop you flying a 110 seater, but I don't think the company should be allowed to transfer 16 aircraft from the BA/CFE register to BACE just because they have an un-costed, 'finger in the air' feeling about it (I know you won't believe that but that was the stated basis of the decision for transferring RJs to MAN!). If you think thats OK, then tell me why we shouldn't transfer the entire embraer fleet to a low-paying air taxi operator? After all, there's work for you elsewhere and it'll improve the companies bottom line.
Last edited by Hand Solo; 14th Apr 2002 at 22:11.
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BRAL, You have hit the nail on the head,it is not Pilot costs that are the problem,it is CC costs.However BA Pilot management have not got the balls to tell Rod that we are not the problem and to get CC costs under control,they just tell us we have to do our bit to contribute to cost cutting and that means BACE flt deck even though BA flt deck adds neglibly to the overall costs.
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We seem to have forgotten that until very recently these 150 pilot jobs on the RJ were outside BA with a 'Regional Operator' paying much lower salaries than BA. It is more than a little specious to now claim BA are 'losing 150 pilot jobs to the Regions'. I'll bet the pilots taken in from CityFlyer are laughing all the way to the bank whilst it is quite clear that no BA pilot is going to lose his job as BA will very soon be short of pilots.
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Firstly, I would like hold out an olive branch to our BACE colleagues who DO indeed work very hard and offer a good, safe service. The problems that we of BAR have are not our fellow pilots who, like ourselves, are mere pawns in the game that is called BA. We are all just trying to earn a living. The changes that are taking place in the regions are golden opportunities for BACE people and I can't blame them for taking them. So I don't think it's right that we play into management's hands and squabble amongst ourselves.
I hope that BALPA can work out a deal which allows us all to work where we want, on the aircraft we want. I see no need for BA pilots to have a pay cut. I see every need for BACE pilots to get a pay rise. Same job and responsibility so same pay.
The same goes for the cabin crew. Although BAR do have a few who have fossilized on a 6 and 3 pattern for far too long, eating bacon sandwiches in the crew room at BA's expense and then complaining about how hard done by they are, a large majority (not large because of too much bacon mind you), are a credit to their uniform. Why shouldn't all the cabin crew receive equal remuneration?
The engineers are another group who are suffering. BAR's engineers are largely cutting grass at MAN or staffing the telephone call centre now. Surely we can come together and use these highly skilled people to great advantage for the airline. We owe them that much after their care over the years, in keeping us all safe.
I guess that all I am trying to say is let's work together as best we can. Be civil and realize that we are all doing the best we can under difficult circumstances. RJ100 people particularly may have to move to the regions and BAR people may/will move south (and contrary to popular belief, we don't want to move, big jets or not).
I don't know how productive this submission will be, but I for one, and I know of many more, hold no grudges against the BACE pilots/cabin crew/engineers et al.
I hope that BALPA can work out a deal which allows us all to work where we want, on the aircraft we want. I see no need for BA pilots to have a pay cut. I see every need for BACE pilots to get a pay rise. Same job and responsibility so same pay.
The same goes for the cabin crew. Although BAR do have a few who have fossilized on a 6 and 3 pattern for far too long, eating bacon sandwiches in the crew room at BA's expense and then complaining about how hard done by they are, a large majority (not large because of too much bacon mind you), are a credit to their uniform. Why shouldn't all the cabin crew receive equal remuneration?
The engineers are another group who are suffering. BAR's engineers are largely cutting grass at MAN or staffing the telephone call centre now. Surely we can come together and use these highly skilled people to great advantage for the airline. We owe them that much after their care over the years, in keeping us all safe.
I guess that all I am trying to say is let's work together as best we can. Be civil and realize that we are all doing the best we can under difficult circumstances. RJ100 people particularly may have to move to the regions and BAR people may/will move south (and contrary to popular belief, we don't want to move, big jets or not).
I don't know how productive this submission will be, but I for one, and I know of many more, hold no grudges against the BACE pilots/cabin crew/engineers et al.