RJ 100s at BA EOG
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For the love of God.......
Pontius, there are many Patels, Singhs, Smiths, Browns and goodness knows what else around. There are at least three other Pontius variants that I know of.
To explain:
1. I'm against the forces of Darkeness.
2. I think MG made a huge mistake with his patronising letter.
3 I work for BACE, I'm happy here, so obviously I'm all for the
RJs coming to us at Manchester.
4. Your tone and attitude confirm the regional view about
mainline; a view shared by the majority of non - BA.
Do get a life old chap. Chin chin!
Pontius, there are many Patels, Singhs, Smiths, Browns and goodness knows what else around. There are at least three other Pontius variants that I know of.
To explain:
1. I'm against the forces of Darkeness.
2. I think MG made a huge mistake with his patronising letter.
3 I work for BACE, I'm happy here, so obviously I'm all for the
RJs coming to us at Manchester.
4. Your tone and attitude confirm the regional view about
mainline; a view shared by the majority of non - BA.
Do get a life old chap. Chin chin!
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Dear Guys 'n' Gals at BACE. Just heard the news about the 500 jobs to go. I hope you are all going to be OK on the flight deck, and the cabin crew too as they usually get the rawest deal. In view of this didturbing news I am going to take Homer's advice and wind my neck in as my problems seem trivial in comparison to the possibility of some of you losing your jobs.
On a lighter note I'm pleased - if you all are - that you are getting the RJ's. You'll find it an endearing aircraft to fly once you get used to its many quirks. I have to admit that since we have joined BA the aircraft is much nicer to fly. The main reason for this is that we don't have to put up with so many ADDs. At CFE, if there was a defect it sometimes ran for weeks. There were many reasons for this and not all attributable to the engineering department. Let me tell you that flying with no FADEC and no APU on a crappy day is no joke and at CFE it happened at least once a month. When you're on it you will remember my words, believe me!
The bad side of the RJ is that anything to do with valves is notoriously unreliable; it's not RVSM cleared so you can't make the most of its 35,000 ft ceiling; the APU (or fifth engine as the wags like to call it) is useless and if you're anything over 39 tonnes the climb rate is abysmal above 15,000 ft. Someone once decribed it as a difficult aeroplane to operate but very easy to fly. The main culprit is undoubtedly the overhead panel. In view of the fact that BA would rather we didn't fly aircraft, I'll be glad to see the back of it after four years.
However, it does have many endearing qualities: namely that it is virtually impossible to do a hard landing or strike a pod; it flies very well and is very stable. The whole plane is very overengineered structurally so if you get caught in a storm as I once did, just sit it out because I guarantee the wings won't fall off. Also, the flight deck is quite spacious even if the cabin isn't.
Good luck with it, guys. I'm sure I'll be seeing some of you up in the regions for a year or two as we'll be doing 'w' pattern five day tours whilst you're all being trained up on it.
Regards, SS
On a lighter note I'm pleased - if you all are - that you are getting the RJ's. You'll find it an endearing aircraft to fly once you get used to its many quirks. I have to admit that since we have joined BA the aircraft is much nicer to fly. The main reason for this is that we don't have to put up with so many ADDs. At CFE, if there was a defect it sometimes ran for weeks. There were many reasons for this and not all attributable to the engineering department. Let me tell you that flying with no FADEC and no APU on a crappy day is no joke and at CFE it happened at least once a month. When you're on it you will remember my words, believe me!
The bad side of the RJ is that anything to do with valves is notoriously unreliable; it's not RVSM cleared so you can't make the most of its 35,000 ft ceiling; the APU (or fifth engine as the wags like to call it) is useless and if you're anything over 39 tonnes the climb rate is abysmal above 15,000 ft. Someone once decribed it as a difficult aeroplane to operate but very easy to fly. The main culprit is undoubtedly the overhead panel. In view of the fact that BA would rather we didn't fly aircraft, I'll be glad to see the back of it after four years.
However, it does have many endearing qualities: namely that it is virtually impossible to do a hard landing or strike a pod; it flies very well and is very stable. The whole plane is very overengineered structurally so if you get caught in a storm as I once did, just sit it out because I guarantee the wings won't fall off. Also, the flight deck is quite spacious even if the cabin isn't.
Good luck with it, guys. I'm sure I'll be seeing some of you up in the regions for a year or two as we'll be doing 'w' pattern five day tours whilst you're all being trained up on it.
Regards, SS
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Thanks mate. Thanks for the good wishes, we dunno yet how many will be redundant, but it don't look good in Belfast, Cardiff or Bristol. Some suspicious jet removals from Southampton as well. I think the cabin crew will be worse hit than the FD.
Anyway thanks for your thought, clearly a gent! The RJ should still be an improvement on the Embraer, what a real cheap nasty dog THAT is!
Anyway thanks for your thought, clearly a gent! The RJ should still be an improvement on the Embraer, what a real cheap nasty dog THAT is!
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Squirrel
<An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever >
I don't think such creatures exist, the writer referred to L/H
You guys hung up on loss of command: A bitter pill to swallow, but that is the price for joining the rollercoaster which is the BA master seniority list.
I appreciate you may not have had a lot of choice in it, but from where I sit, an RJ command does not cut a whole lot of ice. There are lots like me in BAR and we expect you guys to take it like a man, as we did when we joined the 'company' with probably a lot more experience than yourselves.
2 yrs in the LHS of an RJ (with not much experience prior) does not qualify for much in the BA melee (moulin for ex-charter types!)
<An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever >
I don't think such creatures exist, the writer referred to L/H
You guys hung up on loss of command: A bitter pill to swallow, but that is the price for joining the rollercoaster which is the BA master seniority list.
I appreciate you may not have had a lot of choice in it, but from where I sit, an RJ command does not cut a whole lot of ice. There are lots like me in BAR and we expect you guys to take it like a man, as we did when we joined the 'company' with probably a lot more experience than yourselves.
2 yrs in the LHS of an RJ (with not much experience prior) does not qualify for much in the BA melee (moulin for ex-charter types!)
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Oswaldo:
And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all.
Now I know your talking bollox, unless its your flight crew you're talking about. I think you have been talking to some fantasist colleagues of yours if you're trying to imply some imaginary divide between flight deck and cabin crew at BHX or even MAN. Perhaps you should tag along on a nightstop, or maybe come to next years flight&cabin crew xmas bash, or even just travel on one of our flights to learn the truth.
For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham.
Again, you've been speaking to the delusional! I challenge you to find a station anywhere on the BA network that has more efficient and willing ground staff than BHX, and I include all BA staffed stations we serve, all stations staffed by 3rd party contractors and all charter destinations. NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE turns around an A319 faster. Ramp staff, engineers, despatchers, customer service, cleaners, cabin crew, flight crew, ops staff, crew controllers. Everybody works together, on first name terms with no pompous heirarchies, to get the job done quckly and properly. I can only assume that your colleagues who spin you this absolute garbage include the BACE Captain who shouted at one of our dispatchers "YOU! I WANT AN F'ING GPU ON THIS F'ING AIRCRAFT RIGHT F'ING NOW". He probably still wonders why nobody has the time of day for him. He never got the GPU either.
And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all.
Now I know your talking bollox, unless its your flight crew you're talking about. I think you have been talking to some fantasist colleagues of yours if you're trying to imply some imaginary divide between flight deck and cabin crew at BHX or even MAN. Perhaps you should tag along on a nightstop, or maybe come to next years flight&cabin crew xmas bash, or even just travel on one of our flights to learn the truth.
For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham.
Again, you've been speaking to the delusional! I challenge you to find a station anywhere on the BA network that has more efficient and willing ground staff than BHX, and I include all BA staffed stations we serve, all stations staffed by 3rd party contractors and all charter destinations. NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE turns around an A319 faster. Ramp staff, engineers, despatchers, customer service, cleaners, cabin crew, flight crew, ops staff, crew controllers. Everybody works together, on first name terms with no pompous heirarchies, to get the job done quckly and properly. I can only assume that your colleagues who spin you this absolute garbage include the BACE Captain who shouted at one of our dispatchers "YOU! I WANT AN F'ING GPU ON THIS F'ING AIRCRAFT RIGHT F'ING NOW". He probably still wonders why nobody has the time of day for him. He never got the GPU either.
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When it comes to spinning garbage, Mr Solo, you are in a class of your own. I don't know which Fleet you are on, though RHS seems like a good bet, lacking the basic judgement you clearly do.
Whatever, since you see fit to spread falsehoods about our Company, don't expect any sympathy when the time comes for the next tranche of BA aeroplanes, (including yours) to come our way!
Whatever, since you see fit to spread falsehoods about our Company, don't expect any sympathy when the time comes for the next tranche of BA aeroplanes, (including yours) to come our way!
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Touched a nerve there have I taxi dancer? Was it you? I'll admit to being a bit unfair there by stating it was a BACE Captain, because that implies it could have been a Brymon crew and I'm assured they're generally a good bunch. I should really have said it was a BRAL Captain. For this and other exciting diatribes why not ask your friendly neighbourhood dispatcher next time you transit through Birmingham.
I'm not saying everyone is like that, I'm sure they're not, but Oswaldo shouldn't throw stones when he's in a glass house.
I'm not saying everyone is like that, I'm sure they're not, but Oswaldo shouldn't throw stones when he's in a glass house.
Last edited by Hand Solo; 25th Apr 2002 at 18:06.
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Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Omigod, you are so funny. Hand Solo, with your talent for accuracy and discerning, impersonal debate, you should get a job writing an astrology column, or maybe as an agony uncle in a teens magazine.
Do keep it up; your contribution to the intellectual level of this debate, and its relevance to the thread itself - not to mention the fostering of good relations twixt us and you mainline lot is unsurpassable.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Omigod, you are so funny. Hand Solo, with your talent for accuracy and discerning, impersonal debate, you should get a job writing an astrology column, or maybe as an agony uncle in a teens magazine.
Do keep it up; your contribution to the intellectual level of this debate, and its relevance to the thread itself - not to mention the fostering of good relations twixt us and you mainline lot is unsurpassable.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
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Well Mike I'd love to have an informative and impersonal debate based purely on the facts of the case. In fact we almost achieved that several pages back, but most of us gave up under the weight of vitriolic, lazy nigel, who-do-you-think-you-are, I'm cheaper than you, can't weight to take your aircraft and knock you down a peg or too comments. As they say, you can't debate with idiots, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you on experience.
Good Lord; it really is beginning to look like they have taken my advice to be nice to one another. They are all beginning to kiss and make-up in true BA style. Well done chaps!
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Oswaldo you are wrong on a number of points....
The flightcrew cabincrew relationship at BHX is extremely good I have never seen any behaviour that would substantiate your slurs.
Secondly the ground staff are very good as Hand Solo said they can turn a 319 very quickly and we all get on well. I have not been to Man recently but I suspect they are suffering from poor morale and are under resourced on the front line. Lastly there are times when you have to wait as bigger aircraft are dealt with first it makes sense.
The flightcrew cabincrew relationship at BHX is extremely good I have never seen any behaviour that would substantiate your slurs.
Secondly the ground staff are very good as Hand Solo said they can turn a 319 very quickly and we all get on well. I have not been to Man recently but I suspect they are suffering from poor morale and are under resourced on the front line. Lastly there are times when you have to wait as bigger aircraft are dealt with first it makes sense.
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Illogical Bigtrousers.
If two aircraft arrive together, one big, one small, then I can see the prioritising of the bigger - not for any logical reason, but purely because of its size, it happens all the time.
The logistician would say that the total time taken to process both aircraft is a constant, and therefore, given a similar departure time for their respective next sector, the smaller aircraft will be delayed much more than the bigger, should the bigger be turned round first. Therefore it makes sense to actually process the smaller aircraft first, as it will be completed much sooner.
Unfortunately, what happens is that the bigger aircraft is often processed first, even when it arrives AFTER the smaller one, and has a much later departure slot than it's smaller colleague. Thus, the end result is a very late smaller aircraft, leading to extreme unpopularity of BA Handling (from the smaller crew) and BA generally (by the smaller aircraft's pax). It is impossible to set a time constraint, ie Big aircraft always first up to a ten minute cutoff of disparity in arrival times - so the system becomes illogical both in planning, as well as as execution.
If YOU had been consistently de-prioritised by BA handling, you might see matters a little differently. The real tragedy of logic is that it is still a BA passenger, (on the smaller aircraft) who is the real loser. He flies with lo-cost next time, thus we all lose.
The inability of pilot groupings to work together is quite cosmic, I sometimes think we deserve the shafting that management hand out - you don't see management berating each other in public forums, and squabbling over Ts &Cs.
Sorry to have gone off message on this thread, but everyone else does. My next bid is for an RJ!!
If two aircraft arrive together, one big, one small, then I can see the prioritising of the bigger - not for any logical reason, but purely because of its size, it happens all the time.
The logistician would say that the total time taken to process both aircraft is a constant, and therefore, given a similar departure time for their respective next sector, the smaller aircraft will be delayed much more than the bigger, should the bigger be turned round first. Therefore it makes sense to actually process the smaller aircraft first, as it will be completed much sooner.
Unfortunately, what happens is that the bigger aircraft is often processed first, even when it arrives AFTER the smaller one, and has a much later departure slot than it's smaller colleague. Thus, the end result is a very late smaller aircraft, leading to extreme unpopularity of BA Handling (from the smaller crew) and BA generally (by the smaller aircraft's pax). It is impossible to set a time constraint, ie Big aircraft always first up to a ten minute cutoff of disparity in arrival times - so the system becomes illogical both in planning, as well as as execution.
If YOU had been consistently de-prioritised by BA handling, you might see matters a little differently. The real tragedy of logic is that it is still a BA passenger, (on the smaller aircraft) who is the real loser. He flies with lo-cost next time, thus we all lose.
The inability of pilot groupings to work together is quite cosmic, I sometimes think we deserve the shafting that management hand out - you don't see management berating each other in public forums, and squabbling over Ts &Cs.
Sorry to have gone off message on this thread, but everyone else does. My next bid is for an RJ!!
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I do not think this can be argued without specifics eg time place flt number etc and even then it is a bit pointless.
In general I do trust the ground staff at BHX to get on with the job in a sensible manner. But then I would say that as an Airbus driver! If I was in your position I might see things differently.
I have encountered some bias in handling elsewhere. It has been common practice regardless of loads to allocate remote or second class stands for regional airbus flights in favour of LHR operations at EDI and DUS. It is a bit annoying but keep politely asking the ground staff why and bang in a voyage report if you are not satisfied with the answer.
It would be good if we could all get along a little better. The common denominator in most of the arguements we have is the BA management and its decision making ability/logic/insanity etc
Regards BP
In general I do trust the ground staff at BHX to get on with the job in a sensible manner. But then I would say that as an Airbus driver! If I was in your position I might see things differently.
I have encountered some bias in handling elsewhere. It has been common practice regardless of loads to allocate remote or second class stands for regional airbus flights in favour of LHR operations at EDI and DUS. It is a bit annoying but keep politely asking the ground staff why and bang in a voyage report if you are not satisfied with the answer.
It would be good if we could all get along a little better. The common denominator in most of the arguements we have is the BA management and its decision making ability/logic/insanity etc
Regards BP
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I can't believe this thread has degenerated so. If you all just took a step back and had a look at the posts relating to who's getting on best with this set of ground staff. It's pathetic.
This issue of who gets to fly these RJ's is doing a very good job of setting one pilot group off against another.
I work for BACE and think that some of my colleagues are being a bit premature about "we will get this and we will get that". Guys it isn't in the bag.
And to my more distant colleagues in BA BALPA, why are you trying to stitch up a deal which does BACE down without even having the courtesy to let our CC into the picture. You may find that there are common areas of interest while all you're doing at the moment is making us very suspicious of your intentions and not very supportive. I might also add that we can only go by what we're told from on high by our managers which is that BACE will be operating the RJs.
Most of both pilot groups would agree that BA made a mistake absorbing CFE. It would appear from some ex-CFE posters here that the BA pilot workforce made mistakes too in the way it approached pilots who they now end up working with. Why tread the same weary path now.
So it would appear that we are well and truly divided. Our lords and masters must be laughing very hard.
This issue of who gets to fly these RJ's is doing a very good job of setting one pilot group off against another.
I work for BACE and think that some of my colleagues are being a bit premature about "we will get this and we will get that". Guys it isn't in the bag.
And to my more distant colleagues in BA BALPA, why are you trying to stitch up a deal which does BACE down without even having the courtesy to let our CC into the picture. You may find that there are common areas of interest while all you're doing at the moment is making us very suspicious of your intentions and not very supportive. I might also add that we can only go by what we're told from on high by our managers which is that BACE will be operating the RJs.
Most of both pilot groups would agree that BA made a mistake absorbing CFE. It would appear from some ex-CFE posters here that the BA pilot workforce made mistakes too in the way it approached pilots who they now end up working with. Why tread the same weary path now.
So it would appear that we are well and truly divided. Our lords and masters must be laughing very hard.
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Ten out of ten for the Dog!
Couldn't have put it better. What mainline should be patting themselves on the back about is the deal they may have got.
Think about it, you have lost some aging minijets, and some of your ex-CFE blokes MAY have to return to the RHS. In return, you have landed us with some of the most incompetent middle and senior management we have ever come across. Our own lot had their faults, but holy smoke, dental Floss, Team McLLaren and the rest aare truly awesome in their inability to face facts, control costs, commu nicate, and most of all MANAGE!!!!
I'm sure just the loss of these guys will put you firmly back into profit. Tell you what, you can keep your RJs if you take back your management, up to and including Evans and Hearn!
Couldn't have put it better. What mainline should be patting themselves on the back about is the deal they may have got.
Think about it, you have lost some aging minijets, and some of your ex-CFE blokes MAY have to return to the RHS. In return, you have landed us with some of the most incompetent middle and senior management we have ever come across. Our own lot had their faults, but holy smoke, dental Floss, Team McLLaren and the rest aare truly awesome in their inability to face facts, control costs, commu nicate, and most of all MANAGE!!!!
I'm sure just the loss of these guys will put you firmly back into profit. Tell you what, you can keep your RJs if you take back your management, up to and including Evans and Hearn!
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No way! You can keep those managers! I'm starting to agree with you that maybe we have got the best deal!
For the benefit of CLAD, quote from the recent BA BALPA newsletter on the subject of scope:
Our proposals would...............Come to an agreement which will link pilots in BA CitiExpress (BACX) with BA mainline pilots, offering access to mainline contracts and seniority.
For the benefit of CLAD, quote from the recent BA BALPA newsletter on the subject of scope:
Our proposals would...............Come to an agreement which will link pilots in BA CitiExpress (BACX) with BA mainline pilots, offering access to mainline contracts and seniority.
