RJ 100s at BA EOG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In my own head.........
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You make so much sense, Secret Squirrel. I only wish more BA guys were like you. You have a lot in common with most of us in BACE. You can fly with me anytime.
Seriously, what do YOU think we should do then? And what would you do if you worked for BACE at this current time.
Happy landings !
Seriously, what do YOU think we should do then? And what would you do if you worked for BACE at this current time.
Happy landings !
Squirrel, don't get me wrong in what I'm about to say, because I do think that what is happening to you and your colleagues is very disruptive and very sad.
I do however, if what seems about to happen does happen, disagree with you in that you should be treated out of seniority to retain your command.
You say that you took four years of hard work to attain it, so you won't give it up lightly.
Had you been in BA for that length of time, either as a DEP or a CEP, you would only just be becoming an SFO. Three years later, you would become SFO1. With luck, maybe after another four years of hard work, including possibly having to study a buisiness course in your own time and putting up with much bull**** at such events as "captains for the future", you would then have the seniority to start a short haul command course.
So really, your four years shouldn't mean that you jump the queue, should it?
I do however, if what seems about to happen does happen, disagree with you in that you should be treated out of seniority to retain your command.
You say that you took four years of hard work to attain it, so you won't give it up lightly.
Had you been in BA for that length of time, either as a DEP or a CEP, you would only just be becoming an SFO. Three years later, you would become SFO1. With luck, maybe after another four years of hard work, including possibly having to study a buisiness course in your own time and putting up with much bull**** at such events as "captains for the future", you would then have the seniority to start a short haul command course.
So really, your four years shouldn't mean that you jump the queue, should it?
Last edited by snooky; 22nd Apr 2002 at 12:32.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: England
Posts: 1,050
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go on tour for a few days and look what happens....
Let me try and clear the water a little here, at least as far as my own position is concerned.
The main thrust behind my earlier posts was to try and educate at least some individuals in the BA community that not everything is unequivocally better at BA versus CFE.
Now I accept that may come across as 'living in the past' and therefore it has been suggested that I concentrate on the future. Now thats a valid point, but its one I'm already aware of.
The only reason I raise these issues is to dispell the opinion, held by some but not all BA pilots, that BA is so brilliant that everyone must be overjoyed to be there.
After all, as the saying goes, to fail to understand history is to be doomed to repeat it.
Apreciate if you all can, that 'better off' and 'worse off' are relative terms. Although my lot in life may have deteriorated, its still way better than what I had to go through to get to CFE. Whatever else you may think, the overall process of getting to CFE and thence to BA can not possibly be considered as 'being handed to me on a plate'.
But by the same token I want to make it clear that I have no problem with the CEP population. If you've managed to get BA to shell out for your training and give you a job, then good for you!
However, please don't interpret that as meaning I will silently give up my role as a short haul captain at LGW just because the company has choosen to juggle aircraft around, and some SFOs think they see an opportunity to advance to the LHS. As far as I'm concerned, a plane is a plane. If the P&P rules direct us to LHS anything, then I would have thought that will only happen within the confines of the rules. To those that tell me I have misjudged the feeling of the mainline community in this regard I can only plead 'Guilty'. But surely you're not suggesting that the rules will only be applied if they benefit mainline pilots...
Fundamentally, the events of 9/11 have meant that many peoples career progression has taken a temporary halt in progress. But as far as I can see, (within BA) only the ex-CFE LHS community is looking at a massive step backwards.
To those who have expressed sympathy to our situation, I realise that I have been remiss is expressing my appreciation. Sorry! I do at least feel that some people are now better aware of our circumstances.
Now, finally, can I just return to the topic of discussion earlier in my post.
I say "I'm worse of at BA than CFE".
Can I respectfully suggest that instead telling me to shut up and be grateful / I'm not worthy / CFE integration 'disgusts' part of the BA community etc. etc, that a more useful response would be:
"BAs T&Cs have been so eroded that some things were better even at CFE. This is a sign of how things are going. We must stop it."
Because you can't on one hand tell me how brilliant BA is, and then with any conviction argue the opposite viewpoint when negotiating with management.
Out.
CPB
Let me try and clear the water a little here, at least as far as my own position is concerned.
The main thrust behind my earlier posts was to try and educate at least some individuals in the BA community that not everything is unequivocally better at BA versus CFE.
Now I accept that may come across as 'living in the past' and therefore it has been suggested that I concentrate on the future. Now thats a valid point, but its one I'm already aware of.
The only reason I raise these issues is to dispell the opinion, held by some but not all BA pilots, that BA is so brilliant that everyone must be overjoyed to be there.
After all, as the saying goes, to fail to understand history is to be doomed to repeat it.
Apreciate if you all can, that 'better off' and 'worse off' are relative terms. Although my lot in life may have deteriorated, its still way better than what I had to go through to get to CFE. Whatever else you may think, the overall process of getting to CFE and thence to BA can not possibly be considered as 'being handed to me on a plate'.
But by the same token I want to make it clear that I have no problem with the CEP population. If you've managed to get BA to shell out for your training and give you a job, then good for you!
However, please don't interpret that as meaning I will silently give up my role as a short haul captain at LGW just because the company has choosen to juggle aircraft around, and some SFOs think they see an opportunity to advance to the LHS. As far as I'm concerned, a plane is a plane. If the P&P rules direct us to LHS anything, then I would have thought that will only happen within the confines of the rules. To those that tell me I have misjudged the feeling of the mainline community in this regard I can only plead 'Guilty'. But surely you're not suggesting that the rules will only be applied if they benefit mainline pilots...
Fundamentally, the events of 9/11 have meant that many peoples career progression has taken a temporary halt in progress. But as far as I can see, (within BA) only the ex-CFE LHS community is looking at a massive step backwards.
To those who have expressed sympathy to our situation, I realise that I have been remiss is expressing my appreciation. Sorry! I do at least feel that some people are now better aware of our circumstances.
Now, finally, can I just return to the topic of discussion earlier in my post.
I say "I'm worse of at BA than CFE".
Can I respectfully suggest that instead telling me to shut up and be grateful / I'm not worthy / CFE integration 'disgusts' part of the BA community etc. etc, that a more useful response would be:
"BAs T&Cs have been so eroded that some things were better even at CFE. This is a sign of how things are going. We must stop it."
Because you can't on one hand tell me how brilliant BA is, and then with any conviction argue the opposite viewpoint when negotiating with management.
Out.
CPB
Guest
Posts: n/a
This is a long and boring post. Skip it if you're just tuning in for the next installment of the soap opera on this thread...
Well, frankly I'm appalled at the attitude shown here by pilots from both mainline and BACE. Of the pilot's I personally know from both groups I have heard nothing like this sort of self-defeating bulls**t, so I can only hope that this thread represents a minority.
I am one of these apparently much detested cadet pilots, sponsored by BA, and very grateful for it. BA, in particular those responsible for the TPS program have been extremely supportive and pleasant, and for that as well, I am grateful. Without the sponsorship, there is *no way* I could have afforded to put myself through training, either through parental contributions or loans. I resent being told that I somehow have less of a right to my expectations of a career because I haven't suffered enough "hardship". It hasn't been financially easy, and I am still in debt.
I believe that the pilot community as a whole has a right to as good t&c's as it can manage to achieve, and those t&c's should not be determined by what state your company is in, but by what similar professionals in the working population get (Doctors? Maybe. Certainly at least lawyers, accountants and market peers). If your airline can only make money by paying its employees less than its competitors, there is something wrong with its business, and asking employees to effectively subsidise its profits is not on. BA seems to concentrate to a great degree on precisely what conditions its pilots work under - as though somehow this is the determining factor in whether it makes a profit. Well, BA feels it needs (currently) around 50000 people to fly its 300 odd aircraft. If you're telling me that barely 3000 of these people determine the profitability of the operation, you must think I came down with the last shower of rain. With the specific example of sending the RJ's to BACE, if these 150 pilots are the make-or-break factor for BA, it may as well give up now. But they're not. You know, and I know, that the reason BA is up Airway 5H1T with a double engine failure, is the gross inefficiency (mainly unnecessary backroom employees) in the airline.
Tinkering with the pilots is simply a convenient thing for managers to do whilst they ignore the more serious problems. And while the pilots and BALPA get obsessed with these trivialities, they aren't dealing with the fundamental problems of the airline and putting any industrial muscle behind forcing necessary changes out of the company, or protecting their t&c's.
If you say you are happy and don't want better wages, I'm sorry, but you're stupid. There are no marks here for altruism. Equally, if you're more concerned with putting all your attention towards blowing out a candle whilst the house burns down around you, you aren't too bright either.
I'm sure that RJ's going to BACE will not result in better t&c's for BACE, nor will it make the BA group profitable, so why do you want them? I'm sure that in the medium term there will be a facility to move from BACE to mainline, so why do you want fewer jobs available in mainline? BACE looks like a great operation (perhaps barring the extra management heaped on them by BA) to work for, and if you wish to be based in the regions, and find your t&c's acceptable then that's great. However there is little point in disadvantaging your colleagues elsewhere for no benefit to yourselves. Who knows, a change of circumstance in the future may mean you wish to move to mainline afterall...
With regard to my own situation, I am told that Mainline will not be requiring my services for at least 18 months, more likely 2 years, and if I'm lucky I might be offered a contract with BACE in the meantime. I would be very happy with that, and will certainly take it - I love flying, and need a job. I do however resent the fact that I am also told BA mainline need pilots now - however to avoid actually employing them they wish to scrap their existing FTL's and squeeze more hours from their existing pilots, not to mention free up a couple of hundred (approx 12 months further delay to recruitment) pilots by moving their a/c elsewhere. I certainly can't believe BALPA are accepting that. You might say I should just be happy BA paid for my license, and I am, but I don't think its right that they should be overzealously delaying recruitment, preventing me from having a career in *any* industry whilst dangling me around on a string. Certainly not when the efficiencies they wish to squeeze from my chosen career are so negligible compared to what needs to be done it's almost unbelievable.
I hope that made sense.
Cu.
PS If people want to flame me loads for this post, then fine, but I'll then delete it, and you'll look silly, and your post will be pointless. Aha.
Well, frankly I'm appalled at the attitude shown here by pilots from both mainline and BACE. Of the pilot's I personally know from both groups I have heard nothing like this sort of self-defeating bulls**t, so I can only hope that this thread represents a minority.
I am one of these apparently much detested cadet pilots, sponsored by BA, and very grateful for it. BA, in particular those responsible for the TPS program have been extremely supportive and pleasant, and for that as well, I am grateful. Without the sponsorship, there is *no way* I could have afforded to put myself through training, either through parental contributions or loans. I resent being told that I somehow have less of a right to my expectations of a career because I haven't suffered enough "hardship". It hasn't been financially easy, and I am still in debt.
I believe that the pilot community as a whole has a right to as good t&c's as it can manage to achieve, and those t&c's should not be determined by what state your company is in, but by what similar professionals in the working population get (Doctors? Maybe. Certainly at least lawyers, accountants and market peers). If your airline can only make money by paying its employees less than its competitors, there is something wrong with its business, and asking employees to effectively subsidise its profits is not on. BA seems to concentrate to a great degree on precisely what conditions its pilots work under - as though somehow this is the determining factor in whether it makes a profit. Well, BA feels it needs (currently) around 50000 people to fly its 300 odd aircraft. If you're telling me that barely 3000 of these people determine the profitability of the operation, you must think I came down with the last shower of rain. With the specific example of sending the RJ's to BACE, if these 150 pilots are the make-or-break factor for BA, it may as well give up now. But they're not. You know, and I know, that the reason BA is up Airway 5H1T with a double engine failure, is the gross inefficiency (mainly unnecessary backroom employees) in the airline.
Tinkering with the pilots is simply a convenient thing for managers to do whilst they ignore the more serious problems. And while the pilots and BALPA get obsessed with these trivialities, they aren't dealing with the fundamental problems of the airline and putting any industrial muscle behind forcing necessary changes out of the company, or protecting their t&c's.
If you say you are happy and don't want better wages, I'm sorry, but you're stupid. There are no marks here for altruism. Equally, if you're more concerned with putting all your attention towards blowing out a candle whilst the house burns down around you, you aren't too bright either.
I'm sure that RJ's going to BACE will not result in better t&c's for BACE, nor will it make the BA group profitable, so why do you want them? I'm sure that in the medium term there will be a facility to move from BACE to mainline, so why do you want fewer jobs available in mainline? BACE looks like a great operation (perhaps barring the extra management heaped on them by BA) to work for, and if you wish to be based in the regions, and find your t&c's acceptable then that's great. However there is little point in disadvantaging your colleagues elsewhere for no benefit to yourselves. Who knows, a change of circumstance in the future may mean you wish to move to mainline afterall...
With regard to my own situation, I am told that Mainline will not be requiring my services for at least 18 months, more likely 2 years, and if I'm lucky I might be offered a contract with BACE in the meantime. I would be very happy with that, and will certainly take it - I love flying, and need a job. I do however resent the fact that I am also told BA mainline need pilots now - however to avoid actually employing them they wish to scrap their existing FTL's and squeeze more hours from their existing pilots, not to mention free up a couple of hundred (approx 12 months further delay to recruitment) pilots by moving their a/c elsewhere. I certainly can't believe BALPA are accepting that. You might say I should just be happy BA paid for my license, and I am, but I don't think its right that they should be overzealously delaying recruitment, preventing me from having a career in *any* industry whilst dangling me around on a string. Certainly not when the efficiencies they wish to squeeze from my chosen career are so negligible compared to what needs to be done it's almost unbelievable.
I hope that made sense.
Cu.
PS If people want to flame me loads for this post, then fine, but I'll then delete it, and you'll look silly, and your post will be pointless. Aha.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Merstham, Redhill
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Allow me to clear up one small point. I have nothing against CEP's per se; just those who get up on their high seniority horse as if that was all that mattered in the world.
That said:
JT
I'm sorry but I have no advice other than what I have already given: Beware of prophets bearing gifts!
Snooky
Fair point but I didn't join BA. They recruited me, as I came (with four stripes!), to do a job for them. Yes, they reward me well and yes, better than before. EOG pilots didn't want me to stay at CFE and do any routes that were previously done by them so they forced BA to integrate us. No complaints so far. Now we're in and BA have decided that the RJ is more trouble than it's worth (funny how we always managed to keep the program running on greased wheels). So what do you all do?, you throw the book at us; you shake our hand with one hand and slap us across the head with the other. What would you have me do, Snooky?
To my mind - and I'm 100% sure you'd agree if you were in my shoes - It makes little or no sense to replace a captain with two years experience (as I will have by the time I'm shifted off - maybe more!) with an FO who is next in line just because....(s)he's next in line. Not to mention having to keep paying me command salary! I don't think it would make much sense in The City either and yet here you all are criticising BA for being inefficient and wasting money. I'm not religious but I went to a catholic school and one of the quotes which crops up most in life is the one about noticing splinters in other people's eyes and not seeing the plank sticking out of your own.
I repeat, it was BA pilots who brought on this situation in the first place so it seems only fair that you now face the consequences rather than shove us to the forefront to pay for your lack of foresight.
That said:
JT
I'm sorry but I have no advice other than what I have already given: Beware of prophets bearing gifts!
Snooky
Fair point but I didn't join BA. They recruited me, as I came (with four stripes!), to do a job for them. Yes, they reward me well and yes, better than before. EOG pilots didn't want me to stay at CFE and do any routes that were previously done by them so they forced BA to integrate us. No complaints so far. Now we're in and BA have decided that the RJ is more trouble than it's worth (funny how we always managed to keep the program running on greased wheels). So what do you all do?, you throw the book at us; you shake our hand with one hand and slap us across the head with the other. What would you have me do, Snooky?
To my mind - and I'm 100% sure you'd agree if you were in my shoes - It makes little or no sense to replace a captain with two years experience (as I will have by the time I'm shifted off - maybe more!) with an FO who is next in line just because....(s)he's next in line. Not to mention having to keep paying me command salary! I don't think it would make much sense in The City either and yet here you all are criticising BA for being inefficient and wasting money. I'm not religious but I went to a catholic school and one of the quotes which crops up most in life is the one about noticing splinters in other people's eyes and not seeing the plank sticking out of your own.
I repeat, it was BA pilots who brought on this situation in the first place so it seems only fair that you now face the consequences rather than shove us to the forefront to pay for your lack of foresight.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: England
Posts: 1,050
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had intended my previous post to be the last on this thread, but having read Cus post I thought a response was justified.
Well, not so much a response as a gesture of appereciation. Your post was at worst medium length, and definitely not boring - You have I think encapsulated the situation precisely.
I'm only sorry that your own circumstances are so unfortunate.
I can identify with your situation having suffered bad timing myself - got my ticket just before Air Europe went under, which I view as being the beginning of the last recession.
I won't insult you by offering a platitude about how it will all come good in the end.
But I just hope that it does.
And you're right of course - being grateful to someone (in this case BA for sponsoring) does not give them carte blanche to behave however they like towards you.
Best wishes.
CPB
Well, not so much a response as a gesture of appereciation. Your post was at worst medium length, and definitely not boring - You have I think encapsulated the situation precisely.
I'm only sorry that your own circumstances are so unfortunate.
I can identify with your situation having suffered bad timing myself - got my ticket just before Air Europe went under, which I view as being the beginning of the last recession.
I won't insult you by offering a platitude about how it will all come good in the end.
But I just hope that it does.
And you're right of course - being grateful to someone (in this case BA for sponsoring) does not give them carte blanche to behave however they like towards you.
Best wishes.
CPB
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Leeds
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regardless of the real cash flow/profitability accounting cascade and responsibility allocation for the profit/loss account, one thing seems fairly obvious:
Namely that household names in the Airline world are falling by the wayside, changing, and/or restructuring to best cope with the economic and socio-business changes we've all seen over the last couple of years.
What do we see from BA? We see an attempt to resist any and all change perceived as remotely disadvantageous to their pilots. To ensure this happens, we see an attempt to remove the BALPA GenSec, and have a BA line pilot elected instead - allegedly so as to get a further election to secure a new GenSec who will cause more industrial disruption to secure better terms and more money for BA.
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but this is ridiculous. Fiddling while Rome burns, behaving like a dinosaur...........
Namely that household names in the Airline world are falling by the wayside, changing, and/or restructuring to best cope with the economic and socio-business changes we've all seen over the last couple of years.
What do we see from BA? We see an attempt to resist any and all change perceived as remotely disadvantageous to their pilots. To ensure this happens, we see an attempt to remove the BALPA GenSec, and have a BA line pilot elected instead - allegedly so as to get a further election to secure a new GenSec who will cause more industrial disruption to secure better terms and more money for BA.
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but this is ridiculous. Fiddling while Rome burns, behaving like a dinosaur...........
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pontius,
Speaking as a Roman Dinosaur, I think your perspective is all wrong.
Our loads are back up, the figures are looking good, the institutions are buying the stock and there will soon be a massive pilot shortage.
The BA Airbus fleet will soon be VERY short of pilots.
So, again, your post does not gel with the current feeling in BA.
BA pilots standing up for themselves is between BA and BALPA, no-one else, no matter what anyone else thinks. Our management cannot be trusted with a 'concession' unless it applies to their own airline travel!
You all look after your jobs, we'll take care of ours. If you join us, then your opinion becomes more relevant!
Speaking as a Roman Dinosaur, I think your perspective is all wrong.
Our loads are back up, the figures are looking good, the institutions are buying the stock and there will soon be a massive pilot shortage.
The BA Airbus fleet will soon be VERY short of pilots.
So, again, your post does not gel with the current feeling in BA.
BA pilots standing up for themselves is between BA and BALPA, no-one else, no matter what anyone else thinks. Our management cannot be trusted with a 'concession' unless it applies to their own airline travel!
You all look after your jobs, we'll take care of ours. If you join us, then your opinion becomes more relevant!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pontiuspilot you appearred to have walked straight into Mervyn Granshaws trap. The election of the BALPA GS is not really for this thread but I think its an important issue for all of us.
BALPA leadership have attempted to rubber stamp the re-election of Chris Darke by hushing up the requirement to re-elect him. JF is standing to prevent this. Its not relevant which candidate one prefers, but now at least CD must issue a manifesto setting out his goals so that we have a standard by which to measure his performance. For a man to receive £100000 of all our money without spelling out in detail what he intends to do for it is unacceptable.
BALPAs financial situation is currently fairly bleak, despite membership increasing significantly. There has been inadequate explanation of this anomaly. Also there is evidence, certainly of a laxness towards personal accounting, if not dishonest use of the associations funds, identifed in the accounts. Its all our money, so why has there been no open debate on this subject?
Why has MG sought to influence the outcome of the election so blatantly, using association funds to campaign on behalf of one candidate, breaking association rules in the process? Why has he sought to portray JFs nomination as a BA conspiracy and why has he sought to turn this into a 'David and Goliath' campaign with big bad JF efficiently mobilising his (minority BALPA group) BA membership against poor 'David' Darke, who only has at his disposal all the assets of the association, a mailshot to every member and a page in The Log?
There is something rotten in our association and these latest shenanigans suggest it goes all the way to the top. If 'standing ovation' CD is so confident of his support why is he trying to rig the vote? Why does MG feel he has to support him. And why are they trying to sway your opinion whilst denying their opponents the same opportunity?
Who you vote for on the day is your choice, but I would implore you to reserve judgement until both candidates have had a fair opportunity to state their case. Whichever side of the fence you're on let us all at least unite behind the principal that our association is democratic, not autocratic.
BALPA leadership have attempted to rubber stamp the re-election of Chris Darke by hushing up the requirement to re-elect him. JF is standing to prevent this. Its not relevant which candidate one prefers, but now at least CD must issue a manifesto setting out his goals so that we have a standard by which to measure his performance. For a man to receive £100000 of all our money without spelling out in detail what he intends to do for it is unacceptable.
BALPAs financial situation is currently fairly bleak, despite membership increasing significantly. There has been inadequate explanation of this anomaly. Also there is evidence, certainly of a laxness towards personal accounting, if not dishonest use of the associations funds, identifed in the accounts. Its all our money, so why has there been no open debate on this subject?
Why has MG sought to influence the outcome of the election so blatantly, using association funds to campaign on behalf of one candidate, breaking association rules in the process? Why has he sought to portray JFs nomination as a BA conspiracy and why has he sought to turn this into a 'David and Goliath' campaign with big bad JF efficiently mobilising his (minority BALPA group) BA membership against poor 'David' Darke, who only has at his disposal all the assets of the association, a mailshot to every member and a page in The Log?
There is something rotten in our association and these latest shenanigans suggest it goes all the way to the top. If 'standing ovation' CD is so confident of his support why is he trying to rig the vote? Why does MG feel he has to support him. And why are they trying to sway your opinion whilst denying their opponents the same opportunity?
Who you vote for on the day is your choice, but I would implore you to reserve judgement until both candidates have had a fair opportunity to state their case. Whichever side of the fence you're on let us all at least unite behind the principal that our association is democratic, not autocratic.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Leeds
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that guys. You make a good point. I shall not make up my mind until I have read both manifestos. As you say, a 100k salary should have SOME justification.
CD is taking up the cudgel directly with our boss ref. current Ts and Cs in BACE. Our CCs have done a great job so far, despite contimual obfuscation from management. If CD wants our votes, he will have to produce the goods.
CD is taking up the cudgel directly with our boss ref. current Ts and Cs in BACE. Our CCs have done a great job so far, despite contimual obfuscation from management. If CD wants our votes, he will have to produce the goods.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Secret Squirrel
For one you don't know my history, so please don't assume that I woke up one morning picked up the Times and thought 'oooh BA want pilots I think I'll do that !!!!'. It took me 3 attempts over 4 years to be taken on by BA and with £14000 of flying debt already hanging around my shoulders. Oh and by the way CEPs start on £10000 a year less than DEPs and have to repay the company £15000. Who do you really think takes the brunt of the training costs at the end of the day?
Please do us all a favor and wind your neck in.
For one you don't know my history, so please don't assume that I woke up one morning picked up the Times and thought 'oooh BA want pilots I think I'll do that !!!!'. It took me 3 attempts over 4 years to be taken on by BA and with £14000 of flying debt already hanging around my shoulders. Oh and by the way CEPs start on £10000 a year less than DEPs and have to repay the company £15000. Who do you really think takes the brunt of the training costs at the end of the day?
Please do us all a favor and wind your neck in.
Last edited by HomerJSimpson; 22nd Apr 2002 at 23:24.
Squirrel
You say that "It makes no sense to replace a Captain with two years experience with an FO who is next in line just because he is next in line."
That FO may have waited over 10 years for his turn in line to come, and may have many years experience as a Captain before joining BA.
The p&p rules are there to be followed. I accept that maybe personally you may not have chosen to join BA, but now you are in I don't see why you should jump the queue. The cost of your extra pay is not going to worry a management who can blow millions on a variety of whims.
Incidentally, the rules do say that directions to a particular seat or fleet can only occur after all valid bids have been satisfied.
You say that "It makes no sense to replace a Captain with two years experience with an FO who is next in line just because he is next in line."
That FO may have waited over 10 years for his turn in line to come, and may have many years experience as a Captain before joining BA.
The p&p rules are there to be followed. I accept that maybe personally you may not have chosen to join BA, but now you are in I don't see why you should jump the queue. The cost of your extra pay is not going to worry a management who can blow millions on a variety of whims.
Incidentally, the rules do say that directions to a particular seat or fleet can only occur after all valid bids have been satisfied.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Nova
Posts: 1,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This has been a very wide ranging thread, with some valid points made on both sides, including interruptions by various people, in the luxury of total ignorance, who appear to have nothing more than an axe to grind - Very welcome, informative, and interesting - NOT!
I am actually interested in the topic that this thread is supposed to be about! So, can anyone please tell me what is the very latest regarding the future crewing of 100+ seat jets in the regions. Have any firm decisions yet been taken? Has any timescale been suggested for such decisions? Is there an outcome that could satisfy both pilot groups?
To put my cards on the table, I am mainline, longhaul with a real desire to return to the regions. I will almost certainly take a pay cut to do so! Should that be a problem for anyone? I have to say that from where I am, Hands Solo speaks for many of us.
For those BACE guys already in BHX flying the Embraer, you should be aware that a small minority of your number are already creating a big impact with their arrogant, rude and intolerant attitudes when working with BA cabin crew. Maybe a few of you do have all the qualities for mainline after all .
I am actually interested in the topic that this thread is supposed to be about! So, can anyone please tell me what is the very latest regarding the future crewing of 100+ seat jets in the regions. Have any firm decisions yet been taken? Has any timescale been suggested for such decisions? Is there an outcome that could satisfy both pilot groups?
To put my cards on the table, I am mainline, longhaul with a real desire to return to the regions. I will almost certainly take a pay cut to do so! Should that be a problem for anyone? I have to say that from where I am, Hands Solo speaks for many of us.
For those BACE guys already in BHX flying the Embraer, you should be aware that a small minority of your number are already creating a big impact with their arrogant, rude and intolerant attitudes when working with BA cabin crew. Maybe a few of you do have all the qualities for mainline after all .
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tandemrotor, watch this space tommorrow as there is an annoucement about to be made regarding BACE reorganising in the regions, it may include info on the location and who will be flying the RJ 100s.
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tandem,
Talks between BA and BALPA are progressing but no decisions have been made. This topic obviously raises many issues but because of the sensitivity of the talks and the commercial implications no news is being 'leaked'. So even though it seems like it has all gone very quiet, there is lots going on in the background. No, I'm not part of the BALPA team (and certainly not on the Dark side.....no matter how you spell it
) but these little birds keep telling me things, obvioulsy without giving away any of the stuff they're not meant to. I don't know if it will be the case and realise you're not too close to LGW, but I would imagine the LGW boys will be saying something about it at the meeting on Thursday (1900, Renaissance Hotel LGW if you didn't know). Yes, this is BA BALPA members only.
Finally, since Pontiuspilot has chosen such an original name
, some of those who know me have been commenting on some of my posts recently. Please note my pseudo-name and understand that I definitely do NOT share some of his views......particularly regarding the MG letter and especially NOT about keeping Darke. But then, I am in BA, so I would obviously be trying to oust him, because I want BALPA only to look after BA pilots.......trite idiots (not directed at Pontiuspilot) 
Pontius
Talks between BA and BALPA are progressing but no decisions have been made. This topic obviously raises many issues but because of the sensitivity of the talks and the commercial implications no news is being 'leaked'. So even though it seems like it has all gone very quiet, there is lots going on in the background. No, I'm not part of the BALPA team (and certainly not on the Dark side.....no matter how you spell it
) but these little birds keep telling me things, obvioulsy without giving away any of the stuff they're not meant to. I don't know if it will be the case and realise you're not too close to LGW, but I would imagine the LGW boys will be saying something about it at the meeting on Thursday (1900, Renaissance Hotel LGW if you didn't know). Yes, this is BA BALPA members only.Finally, since Pontiuspilot has chosen such an original name
, some of those who know me have been commenting on some of my posts recently. Please note my pseudo-name and understand that I definitely do NOT share some of his views......particularly regarding the MG letter and especially NOT about keeping Darke. But then, I am in BA, so I would obviously be trying to oust him, because I want BALPA only to look after BA pilots.......trite idiots (not directed at Pontiuspilot) Pontius
PPRuNe Person
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: see roster
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does the LH life not suit, Tandemrotor?
Incidentally I can verify your comments on the attitudes of some of the BACE crews @ BHX to those around them.
BACE guys, some of your number (a small minority as ever) are hacking off the BA dispatchers and CC.
Not sure where the 'attitude' comes from but I can certainly say that BA BHX is (or was before FS&S) a happy base - no need to upset the applecart guys, we are all in this together now.
Incidentally I can verify your comments on the attitudes of some of the BACE crews @ BHX to those around them.
BACE guys, some of your number (a small minority as ever) are hacking off the BA dispatchers and CC.
Not sure where the 'attitude' comes from but I can certainly say that BA BHX is (or was before FS&S) a happy base - no need to upset the applecart guys, we are all in this together now.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Merstham, Redhill
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, Homer, whatever you say.
Snooky:
Please, get real old man. Do you perchance think I sprang up with this year's daffodils or something? If you're going to qualify your arguments at least do it more convincingly. An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever and managed to cheat the system by doing less hours than everybody else. In any case if they were neither they would have been able to bid for a command long before I arrived.
Some of you may not know but there is a Balpa meeting for members only somewhere down in the LGW area this Thursday. I am going to be there so you can all spit on me there if you want. But seriously, I believe that this very topic - amoung others - is on the agenda.
Salutations
Snooky:
Please, get real old man. Do you perchance think I sprang up with this year's daffodils or something? If you're going to qualify your arguments at least do it more convincingly. An FO who has been waiting for TEN years to get a command on shorthaul at EOG is one of three things: either very bad or very stupid, or, extremely clever and managed to cheat the system by doing less hours than everybody else. In any case if they were neither they would have been able to bid for a command long before I arrived.
Some of you may not know but there is a Balpa meeting for members only somewhere down in the LGW area this Thursday. I am going to be there so you can all spit on me there if you want. But seriously, I believe that this very topic - amoung others - is on the agenda.
Salutations
Squirrel
You did mention earlier that places would be found for you at LGW or LHR. I agree that my 10 year assertion related to LHR, and I stand by that.
I know that in the past EOG commands have come up much sooner than this, and I really hope that in the next few years this can accomodate you and your colleagues.
So long as the system is followed noone can have any complaints.
Let's see what happens soon.
You did mention earlier that places would be found for you at LGW or LHR. I agree that my 10 year assertion related to LHR, and I stand by that.
I know that in the past EOG commands have come up much sooner than this, and I really hope that in the next few years this can accomodate you and your colleagues.
So long as the system is followed noone can have any complaints.
Let's see what happens soon.
Last edited by snooky; 24th Apr 2002 at 00:04.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: England
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Latest news from us here at BACE is that we have now, today, been formally told we are getting the RJs. For those of a suspicious mindset, we have not been SPECIFICALLY told when the training starts, and hence when we get into the flight deck. I can't help but wonder though, at the mindset of the BA people. There are categorically no people going to lose their jobs - they'll be absorbed by other fleets. I would bet anyone wanting to move to BACE will be able to, and at a more attractive package than the one they used to have with CFE. If not, then a different fleet at their present base. If they do lose a Command, then no loss of money anyway. Doesn't sound too drastic to me, though I must say I would be pretty disappointed to lose my LHS, (though I'd be more disappointed to keep it with a pay cut.
What on earth is the problem then? I think it is the union worrying about future potential encroachment onto other fleets, that's what!!! And it WILL happen chaps, not soon, but eventually.
And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all. And to our relief, they are all fantastic people too, just like our own Cabin Crew, but somewhat better paid (and that's not their fault)
For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham. I CAN speak for Manchester, where we have always had to suck the hind teat, and generally been treated as second class operators, always being last to be serviced by handling etc. The BA union problem is most obvious of all at Manchester, very much a "not my job sir" or "we'll get to you when we've dealt with the other......" And this attitude in turn is probably created by under resourced, (though fantastically over paid) staff levels. And there, the one fact explains the other, methinks. Outsource the ground handling of BA and that would save a huge sum I would bet. Don't laugh, Sir Micky B has done that, and he was always more innovative than any of the BA placemen.
Hope some of that helps boys, lets all live together, work together, and stay in business for a bit longer eh?
What on earth is the problem then? I think it is the union worrying about future potential encroachment onto other fleets, that's what!!! And it WILL happen chaps, not soon, but eventually.
And as for someone criticising our Flt Deck Crews, the guys I've spoken to relate a slightly different tale: one of astonishment by BA cabin crew that they are spoken to as human beings, that they are even allowed to converse with the high and mighty Flt Deck Crew at all. And to our relief, they are all fantastic people too, just like our own Cabin Crew, but somewhat better paid (and that's not their fault)
For the ground staff, can't argue directly, but such of our guys as I have spoken to report fantastic service at Gatwick, and an awful service at Birmingham. I CAN speak for Manchester, where we have always had to suck the hind teat, and generally been treated as second class operators, always being last to be serviced by handling etc. The BA union problem is most obvious of all at Manchester, very much a "not my job sir" or "we'll get to you when we've dealt with the other......" And this attitude in turn is probably created by under resourced, (though fantastically over paid) staff levels. And there, the one fact explains the other, methinks. Outsource the ground handling of BA and that would save a huge sum I would bet. Don't laugh, Sir Micky B has done that, and he was always more innovative than any of the BA placemen.
Hope some of that helps boys, lets all live together, work together, and stay in business for a bit longer eh?