Industrial Action at Flybe?
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I don't know who BALPA were talking to during the base visits but certainly not me or most of the guys I've been talking to. They've unfortunately dropped a bit of a clanger with this one.
Even then the improvements are minimal at best from last time, still with too many ifs, buts and maybes. Another two months wasted.
Even then the improvements are minimal at best from last time, still with too many ifs, buts and maybes. Another two months wasted.
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
After the original ballot BALPA sent out a memo saying correctly that the vote gave the CC a strong mandate and a good platform to go out on our behalf and negotiate for real improvements. We gave them that clear mandate but somehow they have managed to find it adviseable to "strongly recommend" a yes vote for some very peripheral tweaking of the SA and a failure to gain improvement on the pay offer. Whatever the private views on pay vs scheduling the CC members may have it is incumbent on them to represent our views, the views of the rank and file flightcrew; captains and fos alike. This offer fails to meet my expectations of a full and fair agreement and I suspect many of my colleagues will feel similarly. I will be voting no and furthermore if this is the extent of the CC's ability, I will be voting for change at the next round of CC elections.
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CC99, Cumulo Calvus et al
I sympathise with you regarding pay, but if you leave choose to leave BALPA and take your extra 1% pay you lose the ability to improve T&C in the long run. You should really be out recruiting more members and then vote NO against the recommendation and then go to the industrial action stage.
It might be a double bluff, you never know!
If BALPA has 'recommended' the members to vote 'YES' but the members actually vote 'NO' what message will that send to the management?! Just a thought.
I sympathise with you regarding pay, but if you leave choose to leave BALPA and take your extra 1% pay you lose the ability to improve T&C in the long run. You should really be out recruiting more members and then vote NO against the recommendation and then go to the industrial action stage.
It might be a double bluff, you never know!
If BALPA has 'recommended' the members to vote 'YES' but the members actually vote 'NO' what message will that send to the management?! Just a thought.
Last edited by Goldwings; 16th Mar 2011 at 23:50. Reason: typo
Mmmm....
Well, with all due respect, I think that given what´s going on around the world at the moment the fact that all of you are still considering "big fat no´s" etc etc...is a bit worrying.
I´m not saying that the offer is amazing, but I don´t think is horrible.
I mean:
-Unemployment in the UK reaching 8% and hitting a 17-year high
-Millions of pounds of cuts throughout the whole country (places like Liverpool having £141m cuts) which are bringing a lot of difficulties to many people.
-Nuclear crisis developing in Japan (which will have a very dramatic impact on economic recovery and growth, and god knows what impact on population´s health). Remember: we are now happily floating on the stock market....Nikkei´s index dropped 16% on the first 2 days...
So, all in all. What I think we should be worrying about is actually the security of our jobs, and not pay. When I tell some friends who are really struggling at the moment to make ends meet and are actually loosing their jobs that we´re battling not because of a pay cut, but because we want more than 2% of a PAYRISE, they really can´t believe it.
Now many of you will come and tell me that I´m nuts or that I´m buying the crap from the company...whatever, but I seriously think that the fact that an AIRLINE is giving us a 5% increase over 2 years giving what´s going on at the moment is actually a priviledge.
I know......we fly to europe....we are a big airline.....blah blah blah. We don´t fly 747´s, we don´t fly A330´s, and I don´t think we get treated that badly. Besides, the last economic-performance information the company released said that we made a £13m benefit from a £700-800m revenue. I am nothing close to an economist or mathematician, but that´s not a big profit margin.
Believe it or not, I´ve actually been around in the airline industry for a while, and I have never understood allllllllll the moaning that goes on all the time. People are NEVER satisfied. And if you need more money because you have a huge loan to pay and can´t afford to eat, well then maybe you should have considered all the pro´s and con´s of getting into this profession. Flybe never put a pistol on your head and said YOU WILL WORK FOR US AND YOU WILL ACCEPT THIS CONDITIONS!!!!
Maybe people thought they´d be out of Flybe very quickly earning millions of pounds flying for BA....
To conclude. I don´t want to create controversy, and I apologise if any comments have offended anyone. I am just an ordinary flyer that has nothing to do with management thankfully. But I think that people are getting a really bad tunnel-vision here, ignoring many facts and focusing on money, money and money. I personally feel that a 3% more doesn´t make a difference, and the only thing that a strike can bring is actually job losses. Yes, job losses.
Thank you for your time.
I´m not saying that the offer is amazing, but I don´t think is horrible.
I mean:
-Unemployment in the UK reaching 8% and hitting a 17-year high
-Millions of pounds of cuts throughout the whole country (places like Liverpool having £141m cuts) which are bringing a lot of difficulties to many people.
-Nuclear crisis developing in Japan (which will have a very dramatic impact on economic recovery and growth, and god knows what impact on population´s health). Remember: we are now happily floating on the stock market....Nikkei´s index dropped 16% on the first 2 days...
So, all in all. What I think we should be worrying about is actually the security of our jobs, and not pay. When I tell some friends who are really struggling at the moment to make ends meet and are actually loosing their jobs that we´re battling not because of a pay cut, but because we want more than 2% of a PAYRISE, they really can´t believe it.
Now many of you will come and tell me that I´m nuts or that I´m buying the crap from the company...whatever, but I seriously think that the fact that an AIRLINE is giving us a 5% increase over 2 years giving what´s going on at the moment is actually a priviledge.
I know......we fly to europe....we are a big airline.....blah blah blah. We don´t fly 747´s, we don´t fly A330´s, and I don´t think we get treated that badly. Besides, the last economic-performance information the company released said that we made a £13m benefit from a £700-800m revenue. I am nothing close to an economist or mathematician, but that´s not a big profit margin.
Believe it or not, I´ve actually been around in the airline industry for a while, and I have never understood allllllllll the moaning that goes on all the time. People are NEVER satisfied. And if you need more money because you have a huge loan to pay and can´t afford to eat, well then maybe you should have considered all the pro´s and con´s of getting into this profession. Flybe never put a pistol on your head and said YOU WILL WORK FOR US AND YOU WILL ACCEPT THIS CONDITIONS!!!!
Maybe people thought they´d be out of Flybe very quickly earning millions of pounds flying for BA....
To conclude. I don´t want to create controversy, and I apologise if any comments have offended anyone. I am just an ordinary flyer that has nothing to do with management thankfully. But I think that people are getting a really bad tunnel-vision here, ignoring many facts and focusing on money, money and money. I personally feel that a 3% more doesn´t make a difference, and the only thing that a strike can bring is actually job losses. Yes, job losses.
Thank you for your time.
L'enfant Terrible
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Management,
I know you troll these forums, so let me put it in the simplest terms available to me.
I'm proud to be part of Flybe, we've risen from an irrelevant Jersey airline to a major player in a short space of time and I like to think that, in a miniscule way, I contributed to that.
I'm not asking to get rich, far from it. I'm a professional and every day, I go to work with fellow professionals, people whom I consider some of the best pilots and cabin crew in the industry. I take a real pride in what I do. I fly a high workload aeroplane, to high workload airfields and I aim every time to do so to the absolute best of my abilities, even when tired or stressed from wondering how I'll pay my bills.
All I want is to be paid a comparable rate to my peers in other companies, have a reasonable amount of time off to recharge my batteries and be treated as the intelligent adult I know myself to be. In exchange you will never hear from me. I will take the odd extension, work the odd day off and do my utmost to improve us as a company.
If you would rather treat me as a lesser being than you, insult my intelligence and attempt to pay me beans whilst lining your own pockets, I will sit idly on my behind and watch as your company gets f*cked into a tinker's bucket. I will ignore your edicts from on high, do the bare minimum as required when I work and exercise my legal right to withdraw my labour. It will cut me to the core in many ways, as I have invested time in seeing this company and my many friends within it, go from strength to strength. But do not think for a second that I bluff.
You stand at a precipe. I know you haven't the capacity to replace me quickly and I also know that the CAA will be concerned if you suddenly have to start pairing 2000 hr captains with 200 hr F/Os. We can be a long term success or I can be complicit in your failure. Which is it to be?
I know you troll these forums, so let me put it in the simplest terms available to me.
I'm proud to be part of Flybe, we've risen from an irrelevant Jersey airline to a major player in a short space of time and I like to think that, in a miniscule way, I contributed to that.
I'm not asking to get rich, far from it. I'm a professional and every day, I go to work with fellow professionals, people whom I consider some of the best pilots and cabin crew in the industry. I take a real pride in what I do. I fly a high workload aeroplane, to high workload airfields and I aim every time to do so to the absolute best of my abilities, even when tired or stressed from wondering how I'll pay my bills.
All I want is to be paid a comparable rate to my peers in other companies, have a reasonable amount of time off to recharge my batteries and be treated as the intelligent adult I know myself to be. In exchange you will never hear from me. I will take the odd extension, work the odd day off and do my utmost to improve us as a company.
If you would rather treat me as a lesser being than you, insult my intelligence and attempt to pay me beans whilst lining your own pockets, I will sit idly on my behind and watch as your company gets f*cked into a tinker's bucket. I will ignore your edicts from on high, do the bare minimum as required when I work and exercise my legal right to withdraw my labour. It will cut me to the core in many ways, as I have invested time in seeing this company and my many friends within it, go from strength to strength. But do not think for a second that I bluff.
You stand at a precipe. I know you haven't the capacity to replace me quickly and I also know that the CAA will be concerned if you suddenly have to start pairing 2000 hr captains with 200 hr F/Os. We can be a long term success or I can be complicit in your failure. Which is it to be?
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I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Flybe army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Jim's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save Flybe five hundred kilos of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call ops for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make Flybe rich. Now it's to make Flybe pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work the rest I will make them pay.
When they ask Flybe pilots to show leadership then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for Flybe again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!
I am an army of One - A Captain in the Flybe army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Jim's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.
I used to save Flybe five hundred kilos of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call ops for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.
I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make Flybe rich. Now it's to make Flybe pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work the rest I will make them pay.
When they ask Flybe pilots to show leadership then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.
My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for Flybe again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!
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This is a no from me.
It's ok to give yourselves a new contract, which improves your pay by 28%. It's ok to give the managers a 9% payrise too.
It's ok to take out million pound loans to buy flats in London, interest free.
It's ok to take out up to £500000 worth of share in the company.
It's ok to do that with more interest free loans from the company.
It's ok to say that we're all valued and that we all work so hard for the company and make it a great place to work.
So come on then, put your money where your mouth is Jim.
We don't want a large payrise, we just want a fair payrise.
We want to be able to live each month and not worry about that large gas bill because of a winter cold snap.
We want to go to work, and not worry about how the Car Tax is going to be paid for this year.
We want to be able to afford car services, MOTs and other important financial items that need to be done on a regular basis.
I would quite like to be able to save some money each month, when I'm back in the UK, so that maybe someday, I can afford to buy a house. Because I'm bugger nowhere near it at the moment.
It would be incredibly nice to actually not have ANY financial worries at all.
And yet, out there, people stuck in other jobs, earn far more than we ever will in this company.
It's time for you to change your mentality Jim. FlyBE could be a great place to work, but it needs to change from the top downwards. It's no longer that training airline that you inherited, it's a major regional player, that is listed as a PLC in London, with up to 160 brand new E-jets coming along, and major expansion plans across Europe. So stop with this STUPID MENTALITY THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW, and make us a better offer on pay.
Jack Walker would be turning in his grave at what you are doing to this company, Jim. Bear that in mind please.
It's ok to give yourselves a new contract, which improves your pay by 28%. It's ok to give the managers a 9% payrise too.
It's ok to take out million pound loans to buy flats in London, interest free.
It's ok to take out up to £500000 worth of share in the company.
It's ok to do that with more interest free loans from the company.
It's ok to say that we're all valued and that we all work so hard for the company and make it a great place to work.
So come on then, put your money where your mouth is Jim.
We don't want a large payrise, we just want a fair payrise.
We want to be able to live each month and not worry about that large gas bill because of a winter cold snap.
We want to go to work, and not worry about how the Car Tax is going to be paid for this year.
We want to be able to afford car services, MOTs and other important financial items that need to be done on a regular basis.
I would quite like to be able to save some money each month, when I'm back in the UK, so that maybe someday, I can afford to buy a house. Because I'm bugger nowhere near it at the moment.
It would be incredibly nice to actually not have ANY financial worries at all.
And yet, out there, people stuck in other jobs, earn far more than we ever will in this company.
It's time for you to change your mentality Jim. FlyBE could be a great place to work, but it needs to change from the top downwards. It's no longer that training airline that you inherited, it's a major regional player, that is listed as a PLC in London, with up to 160 brand new E-jets coming along, and major expansion plans across Europe. So stop with this STUPID MENTALITY THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW, and make us a better offer on pay.
Jack Walker would be turning in his grave at what you are doing to this company, Jim. Bear that in mind please.
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Such a shame. As expected our beloved management play the 'take the money and run because you're tired of arguing' card.
I now fully despair of this company.
A few really strongly worded posts here. One can only hope that this is true representation of the depth of feeling of FOs and Captains alike. Otherwise we may as well bend over Jim's desk right now.
I have the most sickening feeling that this will appease a lot of the more 'senior bods' on half decent salaries, without training loans.
'hurrah, we have our leave protection back. Everyone else can go hang.'
Although I seriously hope I'm wrong.
I now fully despair of this company.
A few really strongly worded posts here. One can only hope that this is true representation of the depth of feeling of FOs and Captains alike. Otherwise we may as well bend over Jim's desk right now.
I have the most sickening feeling that this will appease a lot of the more 'senior bods' on half decent salaries, without training loans.
'hurrah, we have our leave protection back. Everyone else can go hang.'
Although I seriously hope I'm wrong.
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Us "Comfy Captains" shouldn't be a worry I promise you. We may have no training loans but schooling and universities and everything that goes with it ain't cheap either. I'm from the other side of the fence and although red-ringed, the faster the FB pay scales catch me up the better because I've had nothing of anything for 3years but don't cry for me 
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Perhaps I should clarify by comfy captains I refer to the few that are perhaps on the higher salary point are in their home base and have previous well paid careers that are happy to just accept a deal and carry on quietly, they are not the majority of skippers but there are a couple about whom I'm aware of. I didn't mean to cause any offence or split. It's just a fact that some people will vote yes as it suits them (19% to be exact). It's also a fact that some bases are sometimes harder pressed than others etc MAN/BHX pilots do lots of night stops longer days compared to some of the smaller bases.
Let's all stick together jet prop skipper or Alsatian we're all pilots after all.
Let's all stick together jet prop skipper or Alsatian we're all pilots after all.
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Thanks' absolutley no offence taken 
I know of those who you refer to, jet trainer pay for flying a Dash must be nice.
I couldn't agree with you more, now is the time for sticking together and dig our heels in. If we do vote no (I will be as the pay and sched offer are pants) then I would suggest an email to the CC to say why.This would help when the company come out with their next final offer. A stronger stance by BALPA at the next meeting is needed, this has gone on far too long.
I know of those who you refer to, jet trainer pay for flying a Dash must be nice. I couldn't agree with you more, now is the time for sticking together and dig our heels in. If we do vote no (I will be as the pay and sched offer are pants) then I would suggest an email to the CC to say why.This would help when the company come out with their next final offer. A stronger stance by BALPA at the next meeting is needed, this has gone on far too long.
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So we negotiate under Blue Skies for 2 years. We take a pay freeze to oil the way towards resolving the lates to earlies issue.
The result:
A very mean pay award and a worse scheduling agreement
So we ballot and vote by 80% against the proposals
The result:
The same mean pay award and the scheduling agreement returned to just better than we had before
And this is "strongly recommended"!!
Balpa has an 80% mandate to demand better pay and proper scheduling protection. Balpa CC: don't give up!! Use your mandate!!
FOs: stay in Balpa and use your NO vote.
I'll be voting NO too.
D2 (another LHS voting no).
The result:
A very mean pay award and a worse scheduling agreement
So we ballot and vote by 80% against the proposals
The result:
The same mean pay award and the scheduling agreement returned to just better than we had before
And this is "strongly recommended"!!
Balpa has an 80% mandate to demand better pay and proper scheduling protection. Balpa CC: don't give up!! Use your mandate!!
FOs: stay in Balpa and use your NO vote.
I'll be voting NO too.
D2 (another LHS voting no).
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You're right - we should always have aimed higher than 5%.
But, we shouldn't get rid of the CC - we should remind them that they have our mandate to demand a better scheduling agreement AND a decent pay award.
CC: USE YOUR 80% MANDATE!!
Then YOU decideto ballot separately for the Scheduling Agreement and the Pay Award. Don't let the company dictate that we must accept the 2 issues on one ballot.
If necessary - ballot for industrial action over the pay award and the scheduling agreement separately.
But, we shouldn't get rid of the CC - we should remind them that they have our mandate to demand a better scheduling agreement AND a decent pay award.
CC: USE YOUR 80% MANDATE!!
Then YOU decideto ballot separately for the Scheduling Agreement and the Pay Award. Don't let the company dictate that we must accept the 2 issues on one ballot.
If necessary - ballot for industrial action over the pay award and the scheduling agreement separately.
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I was in absolute shock when I looked through the new deal. I initially believed that the SA would be changed enough this time in order to cover the lack of pay award to scrape a yes vote. When the management and BALPA were doing base visits I assume they had loads of comments on how scheduling changes were the most important aspect of this vote. Unfortunately for both parties, the longer this situation goes on, the more important it becomes for us not to get mugged off.
Personally, I would have accepted the pay in order to get a vastly improved SA. None of the prospective changes will make any difference to my standard roster Why do we have the 108 day off target? Why can we not have contactable days? Why do I have to sit on my own for airport standby? Why on a nightstop is there no roster protection?
If the above, amongst other problems are dismissed out of hand..... I want more money!!!
Personally, I would have accepted the pay in order to get a vastly improved SA. None of the prospective changes will make any difference to my standard roster Why do we have the 108 day off target? Why can we not have contactable days? Why do I have to sit on my own for airport standby? Why on a nightstop is there no roster protection?
If the above, amongst other problems are dismissed out of hand..... I want more money!!!
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"Fellas, if those on the comfy salaries in the left seat don't support you then they don't deserve your support, loyalty or respect. It's a 2 way thing."
Indeed it is Tinwald, this would be the same group of 'comfy' capt's that were here in the beginning and have been for the last 10 years sh@t on from a great height by their brothers who you are now demanding loyalty is it ?
Those that feel the yes voters are at the top of the list need to do more recearch, most if not all of the 'comfy Capt's' I know will be voting no.
As I said to the CC when I met them last month "if it's 2% then it's a no from me and that's what it will be.
Regards Mr Comfy
*
Indeed it is Tinwald, this would be the same group of 'comfy' capt's that were here in the beginning and have been for the last 10 years sh@t on from a great height by their brothers who you are now demanding loyalty is it ?
Those that feel the yes voters are at the top of the list need to do more recearch, most if not all of the 'comfy Capt's' I know will be voting no.
As I said to the CC when I met them last month "if it's 2% then it's a no from me and that's what it will be.
Regards Mr Comfy
*