Industrial Action at Flybe?
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Let's not forget that there are an awful lot of people who are at Flybe by default. ie they were employed by BA cityexpress or Conect and were taken over. They I think you could say were forced to work for Flybe.
Having been at citiexpress myself where the scheduling agreement was second to none, I can understand the upset.
I know this may have already been said as I have'nt read the whole thread.
Having been at citiexpress myself where the scheduling agreement was second to none, I can understand the upset.
I know this may have already been said as I have'nt read the whole thread.
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James Brown
Why the attitude towards your colleagues? For your information most don't intend to leave for SSTR and easy fo's earn similar to dash skippers.
Your officially part of the problem. I've a feeling you'd happily accept a pay cut. Why not volunteer for one?
Why the attitude towards your colleagues? For your information most don't intend to leave for SSTR and easy fo's earn similar to dash skippers.
Your officially part of the problem. I've a feeling you'd happily accept a pay cut. Why not volunteer for one?
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If you think you are going to be any safer/less fatigued when working for the likes of EZY or RYR - think again - 4-5 earlies/lates on the trot is a killer! While the pay is marginally better, it is not much after the taxman takes his cut; the grass is not necessarily greener - just a diffrent shade of brown.
Don't be a rat leaving the sinking ship because the Flybe ship is not sinking (yet) but it seems as if the current 'watch leaders' need to get a grip and focus on the morale of their crew-mates. Without their crew-mates and their good-will, a watch-leader is nothing; nothing at all - just a little insignificance who may get paid more but who is seen as trivial and shallow by others.
At the moment, however, things seem a little arse-about-face and morale is low. So, if you feel aggrieved/let down by the exeter office - then vote accordingly but without malice. The message that any number of no-votes sends should be taken into account by the management - because, in the event of an accident, the company's working conditions would be considered by any subsequent safety investigation......leaving the company at risk of litigation. Certainly, any such career worries are a major human-factor distraction and a big operational safety-risk - (you only have to look at the crew in the US who overflew their destination while 'discussing' rostering and company policy - amongst others). One might even consider a letter to the CEO (copied to BALPA & CAA) stating one's concerns about the distracting effect this unrest is having on operational safety margins.
Ultimately, I would humbly suggest that if everyone (inc management and CC) states their case unemotionally and with an open mind they might find method in the apparent madness of the other side....maybe! However, I would also say that if the company cannot explain why they can afford a large planned expansion, new aircraft and higher pay/bonuses for execs, while apparently doing the opposite for the crews, then they aren't going to get very far and the crew will almost certainly work-to-rule or jump overboard. Simples!
On the other hand, if the majority of pilots vote yes, then just accept it and get on with the job - that's democracy. Other companies seem to be, or soon will be, recruiting - so you could have another option.
Good luck whatever happens
Don't be a rat leaving the sinking ship because the Flybe ship is not sinking (yet) but it seems as if the current 'watch leaders' need to get a grip and focus on the morale of their crew-mates. Without their crew-mates and their good-will, a watch-leader is nothing; nothing at all - just a little insignificance who may get paid more but who is seen as trivial and shallow by others.
At the moment, however, things seem a little arse-about-face and morale is low. So, if you feel aggrieved/let down by the exeter office - then vote accordingly but without malice. The message that any number of no-votes sends should be taken into account by the management - because, in the event of an accident, the company's working conditions would be considered by any subsequent safety investigation......leaving the company at risk of litigation. Certainly, any such career worries are a major human-factor distraction and a big operational safety-risk - (you only have to look at the crew in the US who overflew their destination while 'discussing' rostering and company policy - amongst others). One might even consider a letter to the CEO (copied to BALPA & CAA) stating one's concerns about the distracting effect this unrest is having on operational safety margins.
Ultimately, I would humbly suggest that if everyone (inc management and CC) states their case unemotionally and with an open mind they might find method in the apparent madness of the other side....maybe! However, I would also say that if the company cannot explain why they can afford a large planned expansion, new aircraft and higher pay/bonuses for execs, while apparently doing the opposite for the crews, then they aren't going to get very far and the crew will almost certainly work-to-rule or jump overboard. Simples!
On the other hand, if the majority of pilots vote yes, then just accept it and get on with the job - that's democracy. Other companies seem to be, or soon will be, recruiting - so you could have another option.
Good luck whatever happens
Last edited by flipster; 28th Mar 2011 at 08:44.
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Ballsout, that's a good point, and Flybe working practices have been a real wake up for those from a proper airline ie citiexpress.
Do tell what exactly you are going to leave for then? Are Ezy going to have a special scheme for hacked off Flybe drivers? What makes them so special I wonder?
Or is it more likely they know loads of Flybe people want out so will take full advantage of that fact? You will more than likely be paying through the nose for a TR. You will not get a nice regional base where you live. Gatwick anyone? You will more than likely be on random rostering. Maybe even hourly paid? Sick pay? And lets face it the Flybe pension is pretty good.
As flipster says if it's lifestyle improvement you're after EZY isn't the place to go. And for a skipper to move to EZY as an FO, well I dread to think how long an upgrade may take. EZY have plenty of guys knocking on the door of a command already.
I assume you knew the salary when you joined. Why did you?
Oh and from what I can see Flybe are making a profit. Do share with us your insight on why the management are in for a 'lynching.'
For your information most don't intend to leave for SSTR and easy fo's earn similar to dash skippers.
Or is it more likely they know loads of Flybe people want out so will take full advantage of that fact? You will more than likely be paying through the nose for a TR. You will not get a nice regional base where you live. Gatwick anyone? You will more than likely be on random rostering. Maybe even hourly paid? Sick pay? And lets face it the Flybe pension is pretty good.
As flipster says if it's lifestyle improvement you're after EZY isn't the place to go. And for a skipper to move to EZY as an FO, well I dread to think how long an upgrade may take. EZY have plenty of guys knocking on the door of a command already.
I assume you knew the salary when you joined. Why did you?
Oh and from what I can see Flybe are making a profit. Do share with us your insight on why the management are in for a 'lynching.'
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Pastures new
Some good posts here. Truth is right now there are few other options in the UK for disgruntled Flybe drivers but if that situation changes there will be an exodus of enormous proportions - and not just from the right seat. I personally know Captains with Exec jet options ready to go and others with a military background who have applied to Virgin.
I'm sure you're right that the Easy lifestyle is tiring and 5 earlies or lates in a row is hard (but arguably no harder than 3 earlies followed by 2 or 3 lates which is what Flybe offer). The big reason people will still leave for Easy is that:
They work you hard, but they pay you properly for that
They offer 5/4/5/3 compared to 5/2/5/2 and even 6/2 at Flybe. Your Easyjet driver gets 5 days a month more leave to enjoy their life!
They fly 'proper' jets from which a world of doors open elsewhere
Comparing 2 people I know:
1 joined Flybe 4 years ago and takes home £2000 a month as a F/O
1 joined Easy and is now a Captain (expat) taking home 8000 Euro a month
They both work hard but who would you rather be??
It's a no brainer mate - and everybody here knows it!!
DP
I'm sure you're right that the Easy lifestyle is tiring and 5 earlies or lates in a row is hard (but arguably no harder than 3 earlies followed by 2 or 3 lates which is what Flybe offer). The big reason people will still leave for Easy is that:
They work you hard, but they pay you properly for that
They offer 5/4/5/3 compared to 5/2/5/2 and even 6/2 at Flybe. Your Easyjet driver gets 5 days a month more leave to enjoy their life!
They fly 'proper' jets from which a world of doors open elsewhere
Comparing 2 people I know:
1 joined Flybe 4 years ago and takes home £2000 a month as a F/O
1 joined Easy and is now a Captain (expat) taking home 8000 Euro a month
They both work hard but who would you rather be??
It's a no brainer mate - and everybody here knows it!!
DP
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HidekiTojo: What is your point, you have no point of substance.
Desk-pilot: Your are not comparing like with like. F/O taking home £2000 and a Capt taking home 8000 euros, which is actually just over £7000.
BALLSOUT: Flybe were "given" about £150,000,000 from BA to take BA Connect from them. That allowed Flybe to expand their business and be in the position they are in now. A good number of pilots were offered the opportunity to go to BA Cityflyer, some went, some did not and some went to various airlines.
james brown: you make some valid points. I think it is important to remember, that in terms of the BA Cityexpress SA, whilst Flybe could not accept the gold plated one that was enjoyed by those at BACX, it was a hell of a lot better than the one Flybe had at the time, so I understand.
To all: if the latest vote is a NO, despite the recomendation of the CC to accept, then I assume the CC will stand down - this will result in a new CC being formed, which will take months, by which time a lot may change, perhaps not for the better, and the present offer will be withdrwan.
Ladies and Gentleman, I suggest by not accepting this offer, one may be shooting one's self in one's foot. Perhaps something to consider.
Desk-pilot: Your are not comparing like with like. F/O taking home £2000 and a Capt taking home 8000 euros, which is actually just over £7000.
BALLSOUT: Flybe were "given" about £150,000,000 from BA to take BA Connect from them. That allowed Flybe to expand their business and be in the position they are in now. A good number of pilots were offered the opportunity to go to BA Cityflyer, some went, some did not and some went to various airlines.
james brown: you make some valid points. I think it is important to remember, that in terms of the BA Cityexpress SA, whilst Flybe could not accept the gold plated one that was enjoyed by those at BACX, it was a hell of a lot better than the one Flybe had at the time, so I understand.
To all: if the latest vote is a NO, despite the recomendation of the CC to accept, then I assume the CC will stand down - this will result in a new CC being formed, which will take months, by which time a lot may change, perhaps not for the better, and the present offer will be withdrwan.
Ladies and Gentleman, I suggest by not accepting this offer, one may be shooting one's self in one's foot. Perhaps something to consider.
Last edited by Lord Molton Brown; 28th Mar 2011 at 17:55.
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Well I am not sure that is entirely true, but its water under the bridge and we have to move on.
Sorry I have just re read my original post, and whilst I said a "good number of pilots" I perhaps should have said "some pilots", I can assure you it was not exclusive to RJ type rated pilots. There were some EMB145 guys offered positions as well.
Sorry I have just re read my original post, and whilst I said a "good number of pilots" I perhaps should have said "some pilots", I can assure you it was not exclusive to RJ type rated pilots. There were some EMB145 guys offered positions as well.
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Balpa cc
I'm curious Lord Moulton Brown why you feel the present CC should stand down if the vote is a "no"? I for one don't blame them for having such a tough time negotiating with such an intransigent mgt. They're our elected representatives, they are doing their best and my understanding is that Flybe mgt insisted that this offer was to be made only subject to it being recommended to the pilot community. In order to present the offer I believe they agreed to recommend it, that doesn't mean they agree with it or that we are bound to accept it.
If we vote no I would guess that the matter may be referred to ACAS who as an independent entity will I think laugh hysterically at the management who think it's right to freeze staff pay for one year, offer 2% the next and meanwhile help themselves to 28% rise and free flats in Kensington, interest free loans galore, £500 000 flotation bonuses and the like.
Nobody of sane mind can seriously suggest this will be judged as 'reasonable behaviour' and I would expect ACAS to find that the union were being quite fair and balanced in looking for a rise in the 5-6% range.
ACAS or industrial action - I don't mind so long as a fairer settlement prevails and the CC have my full backing on this.
DP
If we vote no I would guess that the matter may be referred to ACAS who as an independent entity will I think laugh hysterically at the management who think it's right to freeze staff pay for one year, offer 2% the next and meanwhile help themselves to 28% rise and free flats in Kensington, interest free loans galore, £500 000 flotation bonuses and the like.
Nobody of sane mind can seriously suggest this will be judged as 'reasonable behaviour' and I would expect ACAS to find that the union were being quite fair and balanced in looking for a rise in the 5-6% range.
ACAS or industrial action - I don't mind so long as a fairer settlement prevails and the CC have my full backing on this.
DP
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Over the space of four years of employment within one company the pilot is still an FO making £2000 and in another company over the same period of time another pilot has graduated to a captain and making £7000. Pretty clear point if you ask me!
DP, I get you completely and support what you say. Lord Molton you have no point of substance.
DP, I get you completely and support what you say. Lord Molton you have no point of substance.
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If there was anywhere to go, believe me we would and it would have been one year after I joined which was standard within Flybe due to the terrible terms and conditions. Stepping stone airline, get some great experience and move on. Industry has been pretty bad recently so options to leave have been limited as I'm sure you are aware. With no where to go, better make the best of where we are. A successful profitable company can do better. We should be allowed to make a stand. Hope that is clear.
By the way I'm insulted that you refer to our terms and conditions as trivia. No one is making you read all this! How very dare you!! xx
By the way I'm insulted that you refer to our terms and conditions as trivia. No one is making you read all this! How very dare you!! xx
L'enfant Terrible
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And there folks, we see an example of why this T&C's in this industry have slumped. It seems fighting for fair pay is 'trivia' in the world of Lord Molton Brown. 
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six-sixty, please don't think those of us on the BACX are any less PO'd. We may still have our jet salaries but we haven't had any sort of pay rise or increments to speak of since the merger & none of the BACX T&C transferred across
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Clearly have neglected to notice my industry leading salary and BA Mainline scheduling agreement that we have on the 195 fleet. Must stop all the fussing immediately. 
Oh no, hang on a mo......
Oh no, hang on a mo......