rhythm method

Yes they were ordered long before the merger was announced... and flybe have been struggling to crew the current fleet already! Now that options are being exercised, that crewing problem is going to get much worse. Jim French wants as many of the BACON pilots as he can get his hands on, you weren't exactly inundated with CVs from suitably qualified crews in recent months were you? Quite a few of our guys have been unofficially approached in the past about jumping ship (before the announcement).

I genuinely hope that 'new' Flybe is a success as a lot of friends and relations already ply their trade in your colours, and not all of our BACON crews will manage to tie up a new move before the completion of the merger.

Those who continue to spout off about being knights in shining armour coming to rescue BACON jobs, will antagonise so many that you will end up with so many disenfranchised with no feelings of loyalty that the inevitable exodus will cost flybe dear in terms of cancellations, aircraft groundings, passenger compensation payouts, and subsequent loss in passenger trust.

Step back and look at the bigger picture... there are warnings already out there!

For those that stay, good luck. It may well have suited me if I had not already leapt from the sinking ship, but I would echo the sentiment of others.. it is not a job at ANY cost!

Chesty Morgan

RM, they weren't exactly struggling to find crews, they were working to a self imposed, very low, crew required number, about 4.5 crew per aeroplane and yes this lead to crewing problems. Actually there has never been a shortage of CV's for EXT to sift through. How do you think they covered the exodus' of the last 2 years?

Yes options have may been exercised but that is because Flybe expect to be able to crew the new hulls with BACon pilots. If you all leave, or don't turn up, then they will simply delay the options. The proposed fleet size of 40 Q400 and 28 E195 leads to an extra 15 Q4 and an extra 12 E195 above today's level. Working on 5 crew per aircraft that works out at 270 crew. Over the next 3 years that's 90 pa.. Not really a big deal when you think about it. They employed 130 odd new joiners last year.

Why are you so hung up on this "rescue BACon jobs" business? I've never mentioned it because like I've already said the seniority situation wont affect me either way and I think this is a good thing for the Flybe company and BACon pilots. How many people do you think are antagonised at Flybe with the BACon lot saying, nee demanding, that they are not going to the bottom of the seniority list?

Wouldn't it be interesting to see what Those That Spout Off About Not Needing Rescuing would be doing this time next year if it wasn't for Flybe?!

Latman

We have been told it will have no affect on the Man/Bristol/East Mids operations.

oapilot

Can anyone tell me if the proposed improvement in TP salaries to 90% of jet pay applies to Captains AND FOs, or just those in the left hand seat?

Fred Elliot

OA,

Don't mean to be rude but that is an offer currently under ballot. If you are a Flybe pilot, you already know the answer. If not, you'll have to wait until the ballot is complete and the new pay structure in place. Or not.

oapilot

OK Fred. no sweat.
Don't have enough hours to go LHS on Q400, so trying to work out how much of a pay cut I'm looking at pending enough hours/opportunities for command in future.
What I've read on here has only referred to pay from captians perspective, so just wondering if FO pay was being looked at too, as I suspect the info from either your or our management team will arrive too late to allow people to make a balanced choice.
Sadly, that's the way things work these days!
OAP

flyingbug

OA,

I think turboprop FO pay compares favourably with BACON T/P FO pay - starting (for you - already in the company) is £26,000.

FB

skianyn vannin

Hi Flyingbug

talking with my colleagues in the crew room yesterday, the question everyone wants answering ASAP is this. Those of us who have been Jet senior F/O's at BACON for a number of years, (earning around £38k plus), who may end up in the RHS of a Q400 for reasons of seniority want to know if we will get upgraded turbo prop F/O pay or the current flybe offering?

I can assure the flybe management that a number of us would rather flip burgers, than work for £26k.

fly-dj

Remember that £26k is the CURRENT year 0 basic pay for a Q400 FO. If the pay deal gets a yes vote then that will go up, but could you not join us on you existing year in rank increment in which case its going to be a lot more than £26k.

Also it has been said several times in the last 20 odd pages that what we are short of more than anything is Q400 captains, if you have the hours commands are out there & in that case you could be in line for quite a nice pay rise?


While I have yet to decide that the purchase of Bacon by Flybe is good bad or indifferent. And please lets not be confused as that’s what it is, the 15% that BA are getting in the new bigger flybe is the payment for Bacon.

I am however prepared to wait with an open mind for the facts before I rush to judgement, unlike the many individuals on both sides who are to busy making demands and crystal ball gazing. As a relatively junior Flybe FO I stand to suffer more than most if and when the seniority lists are merged, but I also recognise as do a lot of my less militant colleges, that the new bigger better Flybe could be good for everybody and that we do NEED to retain a good deal of the Bacon crews so shafting them is not the way forward.
When the Flybe management have finished their good long look a the Bacon business and developed a plan of action, discussed it with BALPA and the respective CC's they will let us know the facts and at that point I will decide if the new business and its T&C's are for me, to do otherwise is just pointless guesswork.


P.S.
I think not. but if your serious then http://www.mcdonalds.co.uk/?f=y

brain fade

Lets not forget folks, that Flybe will be up for sale itself soon.

When it floats it may or may not attract interest from AN Other airline
desirous to merge with it or to use it as a feeder. Think of Buzz, Go etc.

On the other hand, of course, the 85% not owned by BA may just be bought by the City institutions and small investors etc.

All I'm saying is, and speaking as one of the Bacons-

'Us today-You tomorrow?'

Remember. What goes 'round, comes 'round!

Q400 Pilot

At least, as a Flybe f/o, I don't have to worry about being taken over by an airline that would pay me less than I am currently on.

I personally agree with Flydj's point that the junior f/o's at Flybe may be the biggest losers with less opportunity for early commands. That is the only reason I wasn't applying elsewhere over the summer.

I foresee that the Bacon f/o's with enough hours and ability will get their commands and a nice pay rise very quickly regardless of what happens with the seniority lists, and rightly so by the way.

I hope it works out for us all, but there are always going to be some winners and some losers. I am just going to wait and see. I look forward to working with any of you that do stay on.

Smokie

Lets make this Perfectly Clear. FlyBe are NOT shafting the Bacon Pilots.
BA have done that, not FlyBe.

The Law of the Jungle says you go to the BOTTOM of the SENIORITY LIST.

If the Glove were on the other Foot, it would be us going to the bottom of your list.

Get Used to it.

BluffOldSeaDog

Draw your neck in a bit smokey, you have absolutely no idea of what is being negotiated, and one of the first things that has come up as a result of initial meetings is that YOUR CC Chairman agrees that it would be unacceptable for the BA Contect pilots to go to the bottom of any combined seniority list.
FACT

It's a good thing also that your law of the jungle doesn't apply. Just wait and see what happens

Anodyne

A number of protagonists on this thread seem to assume that it’s ultimately up to the pilots to decide how the seniority lists are combined, actually it’s the management's final decision. If we can work together and produce a compromise that we can present as the will of the overwhelming majority of the pilots, the management would have a hard time going against that, however if we act as two separate warring groups the management will be able to play divide and rule to the detriment of us all. Also, unity will set the precedent that will put us in a strong position for the follow on negotiations on issues such as scheduling.

As has been mentioned we are regional pilots, and as such accept slightly lower rates of pay compared to Airbus and Boeing drivers, in return for which we place more importance on lifestyle issues, such as basing and a scheduling agreements that allow a life outside work. If Mr French and his team realise that and meet those aspirations, he will end up with a loyal and dedicated pilot workforce eager to participate in the continued success of FlyBe, but If he fails to meet those aspirations people will vote with their feet, so while not all will be able to leave on the first day of integration, over the next recruiting seasons FlyBe will haemorrhage pilots faster than a chicken in a halal butchers shop, and a year to eighteen months from now will be back to it’s current experience shortage.

The moderacy of the majority of the people on this thread means that I am looking forward to flying with my new FlyBe colleagues in what I hope will be a successful and civilised company to work for, and like many at BACON I am relieved to be out from under the cold dead hand of BA misrule. At the same time we all, whether existing FlyBe or ex BACON, need to make it abundantly clear to the management that as a group we speak with one voice, that in the current job market we have options, and that our CVs are polished, up to date, and ready to roll.

Chesty Morgan

Mr OldSeaDog. The first meeting between the 2 CC's was today.

Either your avenues of communication are a lot slicker than ours. Or you were at the first AND only meeting between the 2 CC's. OrIF you do have inside knowledge why not be a good lad and share it with the people who need to know, my colleagues AND yours and then they can all sleep easier at night...maybe.

By the way, I don't think the junior F/o's, in fact anyone below about 100 on the seniority list, in this company, really give a damn what our CC Chairman, a very senior 146 Captain, thinks. Afterall, the effects of this takeover on his career are going to be minimal. Fact.

Cutoff

'By the way, I don't think the junior F/o's, in fact anyone below about 100 on the seniority list, in this company, really give a damn what our CC Chairman, a very senior 146 Captain, thinks. Afterall, the effects of this takeover on his career are going to be minimal. Fact.'

Quite agree, I am just concerned that there will be a job after the new year, yep your guessed it, I am a low houred F/O.

waco

....under present employment legislation are seniority lists legal ?......

Would anyone challenge them in the courts ?

wacky

Chesty wrote:

That might be true for the whole CC. However senior members first met the day of the announcement (3 Nov) (there was a BALPA symposium going on) and have met on a few occasions since.

From what I have heard so far BOSD tells it right: Chesty why don't you join (BALPA) you might get to hear more credible info (often in joined up writing). Look forward to meeting you when you are in the RHS! There again, suspect you will be RHS Dash and I will be LHS 195.

marlowe

Fly dj ok BA is getting 15% of the company BUT as Jim French said in the pamphlet that was put into the BA CON crew drop files BA is ensuring enough funds will be available from them to make this new alliance viable ,so really BA are paying Flybe to take BACON. So not really a take over more a merger.

Chesty Morgan

Wacky, just because I talk of low houred and junior pilots at Flybe you presume I am one. You also presume I am not a member of BALPA. Incorrect on both counts. Not that I give 2 hoots what you really think but read back a couple of pages.

The fact of the matter is that the negotiations started TODAY. Anything that happened before is inconsequential. And I know for a fact that there are CC reps who wont roll over and die quiet as easily as our CC Chairman.

From a purely personal point of view I couldn't care less how the seniority is finalised. It wont affect me. My concern lies with my colleagues and their future careers.

If that's what helps you sleep at night then so be it. Hope you like night flying.