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Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .

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Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .

Old 14th Oct 2010, 22:32
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by blind pew
Along a similar track an AF 380 pilot told me that the engineer who left the spacer out of the Paris Concorde only spoke French and the manual was in ....... English only!
I didn't want to bring that up.... since that was indeed an incident that may or may not have any relation to that accident.

But you're touching on another sore point... the abuse of the term "engineer" in the English language (such as "sanitation engineer"?).
This was a mechanic, not an engineer.
And I'm not wanting to cast asturiums on mechanics here... as in any job there are good and bad ones. They may be excellent at their job, but they usually lack language skills... as in this case.
The real failure here was not that of the mechanic, it was the failure of a quality control system that had a mechanic carry out a job without it having been inspected properly by a qualified inspector.

CJ
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 22:42
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Originally Posted by Squawk7777
Come to think about it, we can translate great literature pieces from Shakespeare, Goethe, Sartre, etc. into many different languages....
We can't, really.
Nearly always, if you know both languages, and read both original and translation, you realise something has been lost in translation.
Admittedly not always true... but only if the translator is also an excellent writer her/himself.
....but we struggle translating technical bits.
Again, depends.
As I said earlier, if you have a translator who's fully familiar with the 'technical bits' there's no real struggle.
But often that's not the case, and that's where the problems start.

CJ
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 22:55
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dvv: (re six-week anniversary)
barit1, Merriam-Webster begs to differ:

Definition of ANNIVERSARY

1 : the annual recurrence of a date marking a notable event; broadly : a date that follows such an event by a specified period of time measured in units other than years <the 6-month anniversary of the accident> [emph. mine. dvv]
Broadly or narrowly, such a nitwit non-entymological expression is still absurd. The late great Edwin Newman (Strictly Speaking) must be turning in his grave.
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 23:01
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As I can't read or speak French I can't read the actual court ruling but I am wondering if it would satisfy the ruling if one complete set of manuals only was translated and left available in the office? Does the court ruling say "all manuals in use" or similar?
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Old 14th Oct 2010, 23:53
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well, this is only one small sign of EU coming to its knees....
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 01:01
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Cool

Hi,

La défense et le prosélitisme de la langue française est une noble cause.
Quoi de plus naturel que de défendre sa différence culturelle.
Est ce que le domaine aéronautique est l'un des plus approprié pour mettre en valeur cette différence culturelle est une question que l'ont peut se poser ...
Une réunion au sommet des pays de langue française et de son intelligencia devrait avoir lieu pour débattre de ce sujet .. c'est un minimum

Pardonnez le traducteur Google .. il fait de son mieux
Forgive Google translator .. he did his best

Defense and the proselytism of the French language is a noble cause.
What more natural than to defend its cultural difference.
Is the field of aviation is one of the most appropriate to highlight this cultural difference is a question that may have to ask ...
A summit meeting of French-speaking countries and the intelligentsia should be held to discuss this topic .. is a minimum
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 05:04
  #87 (permalink)  
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Look, we are not debating cultural matters. If you like litterature or poetry, you can have it in french all you like.
My point is, we live in the 21 century and english happens to be the western world mean of communication. Trust me, a hell of lot easier than having to learn mandarin.
Speaking 3 languages, I actually feel blessed and feel those poor anglos are missing out so much.

This is a purely Air France issue and doesn't in the least concern KLM.
The ruling was made in accordance to a bill passed in the dark year of 1994 by a parliament who didn't know the difference between its left and right inspired by one of the stupidiest politicians France has had the priviledge to produce......and we are numero uno in that trade.

Making a cultural issue out of a technical one is a lunacy.
Safety is the reason claimed by this very active minority who, in truth, would just like to see AF disappear from the face of the earth.
Just an old grudge coming from a small group of bitter men who, at one time or another, didn't get what they wanted.
Problem is, they also poisened the whell.
Claiming this is going to make AF safer when all the incidents and accidents AF had to suffer, happened when all the manuals were in french, is a fraud.
The vast majority of AF pilots are just stunned by this ruling and being the law, it is going to be a long process to try to have this ruling broken.
Again, this a case where the law becomes illegal.
When you know the district court in charge, mainly deals with stolen cars or petty theft cases, CDG being in their juridiction, shows you what understanding of the issue these good judges have.
It's called the french judicial system. Understaffed, underfunded and overworked...............on top of being totally clueless.

Last. Millenium was written in swedish and turned out to be a world block buster. The same movie was shot in swedish and was an equal success.
This endless claim by the french to be the cultural center of the world is just a bore and the reflection of their deep seated insecurities.
Korea seems to be the only country who went down the same path. A hell of a place to emulate !

Last edited by Me Myself; 15th Oct 2010 at 07:53.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 06:01
  #88 (permalink)  
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Defense and the proselytism of the French language is a noble cause.
What more natural than to defend its cultural difference.
I agree with this, and it's vital to maintain local languages and dialects all over the world. To lose them would be tragic. However, for years it's been vital to achieve the creation and common use of a world language.

Esperanto was . . . erm, less than a success. Good intentions and all that, but a modern world language has to be technology-based first, and artistic last.

I recall years ago a Japanese scientist talking of the stress he felt by learning so much of his own language. He made the astonishing statement that it felt as though the relevant hemisphere of his brain felt (something like) stuffed to the brim. He knew he had better things to do than tackle a complex language that relied so much on graphical interpretation.

What is so odd is that some years ago, there was a decree - in academia or the courts, can't remember which. - which stated that all science papers must be published in English. I was astonished, but felt it was a step in the right direction. But now we have a huge industry forced to waste, what in real terms? - half a million bucks, maybe a lot more than that. And that just gets them legal for day one.

In my lifetime, this had become a small world. We simply can not carry on talking dozens of different languages.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 06:14
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DVV

Perhaps you should have used the Oxford Dictionary

A
anniversary

Pronunciation:/anɪˈvəːs(ə)ri/
noun (plural anniversaries)
the date on which an event took place or an institution was founded in a previous year:
the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Britain
the 75th anniversary of the RAF
the date on which a couple were married in a previous year:
he even forgot our tenth anniversary!

Origin:
Middle English: from Latin anniversarius 'returning yearly', from annus 'year' + versus 'turning'


Spelling help
Spell anniversary with a double n at the beginning; the ending is -ary.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 07:56
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There is a time and place for cultural and language differences, and this isn't it.

Remember that mars exploring mission that crashed because part of the work had been done in Europe using metric system and part in the US using the imperial system?

Any technical issue relies on the absolute lack of ambiguity. If I say "1 minute" I'm referring to 60 times "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom" which remains the same regardless of which country said caesium atom happens to be (luckily).

As a spaniard I'm acutely aware of both the blessing and the curse of multiple languages. Let's not loose our perspective, the reason for language to exist is to communicate information not to evidence an inferiority complex. Having cultural differences is fine by me but not in a technical field where having differences is the last thing you want.

English is nowadays the world language just as before it was french, earlier spanish and earlier latin. In the future we'll probably have to learn mandarin. Just face it and get over with, geeze!
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 08:13
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Well put !
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 08:15
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English is indeed the aviation lingua franca these days and french pilots are required to pass english language proficiency just like the rest of us. However ultimately this issue is of no great significance. Air France just has to pay someone to translate the manuals. Pointless exercise as almost every sane person agrees and will probably cost them a few hundred thousand euros. The french government normally skews the playing field in Air France's favour....this time not. C'est la vie!
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 10:47
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Lederhosen

May I remind you that in our democratic system, justice and government are 2 separate things ?
The same applies to Germany, or did last time I was there.............last week.

It is of hell of a relevance since it will cost AF a s.t load of money and will send us to the stone age of aviation out of which we were barely coming out.
If one is not able to read and understand an approach chart in english, then one should one's sorry self and go and do something else than flying aircrafts around the globe.

The french governement for all I know didn't decide anything. It was a clueless judge out of some dubious subburb came out with this ruling.
I doubt our current masters would have taken this kind of decision if left to them.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 11:02
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You are exagerating a bit when you talk about some manuals being translated into french sending you all back to the stone age. Are you honestly saying that the english manuals are all going to be binned? Nothing will change. Some translation agency will be rubbing their hands together and employing a few willing hands, maybe even out of work pilots who knows? It is a bit embarrassing but nothing more. To Air France a million is small change. We can all have a good laugh but lets leave it at that.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 11:23
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It is a matter of public record that French ATC speaking French to a French aircraft at a major international airport in France almost caused the death of hundreds of people.

Like it or not, and the history is irrelevant, English is the language of aviation and the sooner the French cease their xenophobic attitude towards all things English then the sooner the aviation world will be a safer place.

By all means insist on all things in France being French, but leave aviation to aviators who understand the importance of effective communication!
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 11:54
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Thumbs down

It is a matter of public record that French ATC speaking French to a French aircraft at a major international airport in France almost caused the death of hundreds of people.

Like it or not, and the history is irrelevant, English is the language of aviation and the sooner the French cease their xenophobic attitude towards all things English then the sooner the aviation world will be a safer place.

By all means insist on all things in France being French, but leave aviation to aviators who understand the importance of effective communication!
It's ignorant replies like this that make me shake my head. Did you ever bother reading the infamous "French ATC" thread? Did you ever fly to other countries, even in Europe? Did you ever look into the factors of your near-death scenarios? Your pet argument doesn't work at all, and besides the world is a tad bigger than your glance over to France with many countries and operations working in multi-lingual ATC environment. Latin America probably being the biggest dual-language ATC system.

What about leaving aviation to aviators who aren't so narrow-minded?
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 12:05
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I totally agree with Squawk7777 in the above post.

Besides this is an internal Air France matter not relevant to any other company.

So what if all their manuals are available in both languages. How does that affect safety to others outside Air France?

In the end, I'm sure most of their pilots will still use the English version.
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 12:19
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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We can't, really.
Nearly always, if you know both languages, and read both original and translation, you realise something has been lost in translation.
Admittedly not always true... but only if the translator is also an excellent writer her/himself.
Exactly! That's why one should refer to a translation more as an interpretation when it comes to literature. I assume the same message comes across every reader when he reads Hamlet no matter in which language it is written.

Daermon ATC has hit the nail on the head. A scientific unit (SU) cannot be changed. There are sometimes confusions about which SU to be used, but IMHO tech manuals should be easier to translate than pieces of literature (note: translate not interpret). But if a company puts enough effort into proper translation which really is not that difficult since there aren't really emotional parts in it then there shouldn't be a problem. Usually, incorrect translated items are fairly easy to spot. Is it more an annoyance than a risk?

I have read some Embraer manuals and there were issues with it. I had wondered why Embraer USA had not proof-read or verified the translations. I personally think that if you have a proper translated manual there will be less issues with it than having people who don't speak English very well trying to guess what the manual (in English) says. Economically, it will make more sense to spend a few $$$ more on a good and correct translation than requiring everyone to speak and fully understand English. It makes me wonder how the automobile industry handles this. Surely, the Audi, BMW, Honda, Citroen etc. dealerships in the UK are not required to learn German, Japanese or French.

Last. Millenium was written in swedish and turned out to be a world block buster. The same movie was shot in swedish and was an equal success.
This endless claim by the french to be the cultural center of the world is just a bore and the reflection of their deep seated insecurities.
Korea seems to be the only country who went down the same path. A hell of a place to emulate !
There is a difference between a blockbuster and a cultural piece of art. Milllenium is a good trilogy, but considering certain scenes (especially the rape scene) it doesn't come across as a master piece of culture or art. If every blockbuster is a center of culture, we should all be worshipping the New Kids on the Block, Spice Girls, Take That, Die Hard, Lethal Weapon etc. (and let's not mention your comment about deep seated insecurities; you're opening a can of worms there mate)
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 12:39
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To Me Myself

Originally Posted by Me Myself
It was a clueless judge out of some dubious subburb
Do you know the judge? It's not because you don't like the outcome of the appeal that a judge is necessarily "clueless".
The location of the Court does not make it dubious my friend, your statement is nothing but a very good example of a "racisme ordinaire" that is spreading in France thanks to your "masters".

Si c'est le TGI de Paris qui avait jugé, ça aurait rendu le verdict moins stupide peut-être?
Ta remarque sur le TGI de Bobigny est déplacée pour le moins qu'on puisse dire...

Oh btw you might need that:
Merriam-Webster Online
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Old 15th Oct 2010, 12:58
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Me Myself,
I was about to make exactly the same answer to lederhosen this morning, but had no time to finish it.
I would have emitted a doubt about the justice impartiality, but I would have been wrong. Indeed.

Squawk7777,
Don't worry about Bengerman accusations, he works in finance. If ever he flew in France as a pilot, I guess he was the problem, not the language. (easy to accuse when no proof)
I'm ready to fight any AF pilot about their policies, but here, they are victims.


As to speak French on the frequency (I know, off topic...) since I discovered the bi-language issue (on this forum), when I have to give a safety control clearance to a French speaking pilot, I give the information to the English pilot who's involved.
Just ask, instead of treating French as mass murderers.

Last edited by BrATCO; 15th Oct 2010 at 18:09.
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