Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .
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I think its great....
just as long as bi-lingual approach plates don't lead to an accident, that is.
Think about all the unecessary regulations and paperwork that are imposed on us all...largely (but not entirely) at the insistence of the french. Maybe, just maybe this will help one country to see how ludicrous the stupidity of unecessary laws and regulations has become.
What's the betting that being french they just ignore the ruling anyway...that's how they cope with JAA/EASA things that they don't like.
Think about all the unecessary regulations and paperwork that are imposed on us all...largely (but not entirely) at the insistence of the french. Maybe, just maybe this will help one country to see how ludicrous the stupidity of unecessary laws and regulations has become.
What's the betting that being french they just ignore the ruling anyway...that's how they cope with JAA/EASA things that they don't like.
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My humble contribution to this international fracas was only intended to amuse....Ron Liddle of the Times is entirely responsible for the unforgettable description of the French "clinging like deranged limpets to their strange language......"
The only times I have ventured in my PA18 and encountered vent arrier, terresage, etc. I nearly met a 152 as we both turned final at the same time but from opposite directions. He was right, I was wrong, the French were very kind and forgiving.
Later on on the same journey, becoming seriously uncertain of my position, Tours guided me along a river under a lowering sky until a small airstrip showed up beneath me; the locals were graciously hospitable.
And when leaving Le Mans, and telephoning Le Touquet to say my radio was behaving badly, the kind lady controller had no problem in assuring me in the most charming English "No problem, Madam, we shall give you ze green light!"
Do you suppose these charming differences will ever be submerged into a single continental system of control....and a single international language?
Don't hold your breath.
The only times I have ventured in my PA18 and encountered vent arrier, terresage, etc. I nearly met a 152 as we both turned final at the same time but from opposite directions. He was right, I was wrong, the French were very kind and forgiving.
Later on on the same journey, becoming seriously uncertain of my position, Tours guided me along a river under a lowering sky until a small airstrip showed up beneath me; the locals were graciously hospitable.
And when leaving Le Mans, and telephoning Le Touquet to say my radio was behaving badly, the kind lady controller had no problem in assuring me in the most charming English "No problem, Madam, we shall give you ze green light!"
Do you suppose these charming differences will ever be submerged into a single continental system of control....and a single international language?
Don't hold your breath.
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I don't think anyone who has any experience of them wants them to be.
B U T as the OP has emphasised (and he IS French ) the original complaint, vented in this thread, is just stupid bloody-mindness by a bunch of largely by-passed prima donnas.
The whole point is not the "droit" to do things in French if they want, but the mind-numbingly entrenched dogmatic imperative to force it on everyone else , whether they give a sheet or not.
That is just bloody silly.
B U T as the OP has emphasised (and he IS French ) the original complaint, vented in this thread, is just stupid bloody-mindness by a bunch of largely by-passed prima donnas.
The whole point is not the "droit" to do things in French if they want, but the mind-numbingly entrenched dogmatic imperative to force it on everyone else , whether they give a sheet or not.
That is just bloody silly.
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i presume this is a joke right?!?!? if any flight crew member of air france cant read the manuals in english...i am shocked! if a guy cant understand english he should not be allowed take off in a pa28 never mind and airbus in western europe!
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At least they're fighting for their mother tongue...
Maybe they're proud of their State?
Maybe they still feel there is a French State to be proud of?
As an Englishman who feels State-less and that he has no State of which to be proud, I can't help taking my hat off to anything that looks like national pride, no matter how petty it might seem under certain lighting conditions.
I'd have emigrated years ago, but even for a fluent French-speaker and avid francophile, decent jobs there are a closed shop. And I can't help applauding that.
Maybe they're proud of their State?
Maybe they still feel there is a French State to be proud of?
As an Englishman who feels State-less and that he has no State of which to be proud, I can't help taking my hat off to anything that looks like national pride, no matter how petty it might seem under certain lighting conditions.
I'd have emigrated years ago, but even for a fluent French-speaker and avid francophile, decent jobs there are a closed shop. And I can't help applauding that.
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THEY ARE NOT. They're sh!t-stirring to draw attention to their minute extremist "trade union".
In the best tradition of another minority trade union doing exactly the same in France right now.
I doubt that.... having worked in France as a non-Frenchie for about 35 years...
Depends on what YOU call a decent job....
Could you explain that remark?
CJ
In the best tradition of another minority trade union doing exactly the same in France right now.
I'd have emigrated years ago, but even for a fluent French-speaker and avid francophile, decent jobs there are a closed shop.
Depends on what YOU call a decent job....
And I can't help applauding that.
CJ
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i presume this is a joke right?!?!? if any flight crew member of air france cant read the manuals in english...i am shocked! if a guy cant understand english he should not be allowed take off in a pa28 never mind and airbus in western europe!
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ChristiaanJ:
Completely free, easy attack towards a language. In addition if we look into it, like you force us to do, let's compare the Nuclear industry in UK versus France, Car industry in UK verus France, Aviation industry in UK versus France, space industry in UK versus France, let's not go there...
Again you ChristiaanJ:
Again, don't attack this language with, as a weapon, your own shortcomings, in an aircraft context tangage has a very accurate meaning and refers to pitch movement around y (lacet(z)-tangage(y)-roulis(x)), "profondeur" refers to "gouverne de profondeur", which is the elevator, the device. You are completely confused here.
Finally, in french pitch is "assiette", and funny enough this word doesn't appear in your post when you try to translate pitch in french.
While we are all here arguing about languages and translations, the new booming aviation country-you know the country where one fifth of the humanity lives which makes their language the most spoken in the world-this country i don't name domestically do all the radio com in their language, atis in their language, approach plate in their language, SOPs-callouts in their language, checklist in their language, documents/information/NOTAM/weather... In their language, and this language is not french (even if they use their meters/kilograms...) nor english. Yet it is forseen to be the first economic power within 15 years (some say it is already today), and it is forseen to be the most dynamic aviation area in the world in terms of order and developement within years.
CAAC (their civil aviation authority) told the airlines in 2005 that by 2008 every communication-documents would have to be in english by 2008, and everybody in this country ignored it.
Something new, i even hear now (more and more everyday) foreigner crews landing in their capital or just crossing their airspace trying to say some words like "good morning" or "byebye" in the "local" (local today, global tomorrow?) language...
Argue as much as you want about Air France wanting to translate their document, still remember as a fact (to keep everything in perspective) that Air France and France itself was yesterday one of the pionneer in aviation/industry and today is still a leader in aviation industry and especially space -they are the world leader when it comes to put sattelites into orbit- and french is the second mother tongue spoken in europe after german and before english.
What is funny in this kind of argue and debate, in addition to be close minded and blind concerning the evolution of the international developement and reality, this is that the most stubborn are almost always the ones who are able to speak only one language in a cockpit (and the funniest is the ones complaining are not even affected...).
Now, on the historical/philosophical side of the issue:
100 years ago english was not an international language (french was), and today nobody can affirm that 100 hundred years from now (or before!) english will still be an international language, so here is my comment: nowadays the persons, among our pilot community, who were born in an english speaking country (or simply could speak english before they became pilot) shouldn't complain but at the opposite should be happy, it is good time for them.
"The fact that French is not really a technical language doesn't help matters...."
Again you ChristiaanJ:
"What's the difference between "tangage" et "profondeur", in an aircraft context? None.... both translate to "pitch"...."
Finally, in french pitch is "assiette", and funny enough this word doesn't appear in your post when you try to translate pitch in french.
While we are all here arguing about languages and translations, the new booming aviation country-you know the country where one fifth of the humanity lives which makes their language the most spoken in the world-this country i don't name domestically do all the radio com in their language, atis in their language, approach plate in their language, SOPs-callouts in their language, checklist in their language, documents/information/NOTAM/weather... In their language, and this language is not french (even if they use their meters/kilograms...) nor english. Yet it is forseen to be the first economic power within 15 years (some say it is already today), and it is forseen to be the most dynamic aviation area in the world in terms of order and developement within years.
CAAC (their civil aviation authority) told the airlines in 2005 that by 2008 every communication-documents would have to be in english by 2008, and everybody in this country ignored it.
Something new, i even hear now (more and more everyday) foreigner crews landing in their capital or just crossing their airspace trying to say some words like "good morning" or "byebye" in the "local" (local today, global tomorrow?) language...
Argue as much as you want about Air France wanting to translate their document, still remember as a fact (to keep everything in perspective) that Air France and France itself was yesterday one of the pionneer in aviation/industry and today is still a leader in aviation industry and especially space -they are the world leader when it comes to put sattelites into orbit- and french is the second mother tongue spoken in europe after german and before english.
What is funny in this kind of argue and debate, in addition to be close minded and blind concerning the evolution of the international developement and reality, this is that the most stubborn are almost always the ones who are able to speak only one language in a cockpit (and the funniest is the ones complaining are not even affected...).
Now, on the historical/philosophical side of the issue:
100 years ago english was not an international language (french was), and today nobody can affirm that 100 hundred years from now (or before!) english will still be an international language, so here is my comment: nowadays the persons, among our pilot community, who were born in an english speaking country (or simply could speak english before they became pilot) shouldn't complain but at the opposite should be happy, it is good time for them.
Last edited by KAG; 23rd Oct 2010 at 14:54.
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KAG,
I would have bowed to your superior wisdom..... were it not that I've worked for about 35 years in France, of which about 25 years in the aviation industry (in a French-speaking firm), and the remainder in technical documentation and translation.
I beg your pardon? "Attack"? Having used both languages for about forty years, I simply expressed my opinion.
You missed that point as well....
It's not Air France wanting to translate their documents, it's a small minority union trying to p!ss off Air France.
As a matter of fact, Air France does translate a lot of their documents (if they're not already written in French in the first place) for the use of the majority of their personnel, for which knowledge of English is not a prerequisite for being hired, unlike these trouble-stirrers..
CJ
I would have bowed to your superior wisdom..... were it not that I've worked for about 35 years in France, of which about 25 years in the aviation industry (in a French-speaking firm), and the remainder in technical documentation and translation.
Completely free, easy attack towards a language.
Argue as much as you want about Air France wanting to translate their documents....
It's not Air France wanting to translate their documents, it's a small minority union trying to p!ss off Air France.
As a matter of fact, Air France does translate a lot of their documents (if they're not already written in French in the first place) for the use of the majority of their personnel, for which knowledge of English is not a prerequisite for being hired, unlike these trouble-stirrers..
CJ
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The translation thing with the supposedly consequences that comes with, well I admit I don't know the details and I don't really care.
I was just a bit suprised by all the fuss about it in this thread, thread in english, so written by a majority of person affected in no aspect, no aspect but ideological ones.
It could be translated in french, greek, russian, japanese, mandarin, mongolian, italian, german, arabic, korean, hebrew, I would still don't care.
And if "I" (as a pilot) were born in an english speaking country, "I" would care even less, keeping in mind and being thankful for all the hassle "I" would avoid not being born let's say in portugal (example) aviation language wise. ("I" could be any pilot).
I was just a bit suprised by all the fuss about it in this thread, thread in english, so written by a majority of person affected in no aspect, no aspect but ideological ones.
It could be translated in french, greek, russian, japanese, mandarin, mongolian, italian, german, arabic, korean, hebrew, I would still don't care.
And if "I" (as a pilot) were born in an english speaking country, "I" would care even less, keeping in mind and being thankful for all the hassle "I" would avoid not being born let's say in portugal (example) aviation language wise. ("I" could be any pilot).
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Unions in France generally are motivated to take action by their own self-interest, rather than a desire to serve the interests of their constituents. Many examples demonstrating this could be cited.
I recall a union that forced an IKEA store to close on Sunday (it had been remaining open on Sundays because it made more money by doing so than it had to pay in fines); after the union won in court, the store fired all the employees it had hired for Sunday work. Difficult to see how the union served the workers in this case (especially since the Sunday workers had been getting loads of extra pay for working on Sundays).
Anyway, this incident clearly seems to be some small, unimportant union trying to deny how small and unimportant it is.
There must be some serious cognitive dissonance at work within the union. Pilots are required to speak and read English reasonably well by ICAO recommendations. If they meet those criteria, they don't need documentation in French. If they need documentation in French, then they must not be fluent enough in English to fly safely internationally.
Unfortunately, technical translations tend to be terrible. Good translations are cripplingly expensive. Bad translations are dangerous. The French are very good at producing very bad translations.
It's bad enough that some English documentation is written by French people with a relatively poor grasp of English, as some examples cited here demonstrate. There are many faux amis (words that look the same but mean different things) between French and English, since so much English vocabulary (about 50%) derived originally from French. The confusions are just enough to dangerously impact safety.
One can only hope that Air France pilots are fluent enough in English to not require badly translated documentation in French. The inverse possibility—Air France pilots with such a poor grasp of English that they cannot read documentation in the language—is scary to contemplate.
I recall a union that forced an IKEA store to close on Sunday (it had been remaining open on Sundays because it made more money by doing so than it had to pay in fines); after the union won in court, the store fired all the employees it had hired for Sunday work. Difficult to see how the union served the workers in this case (especially since the Sunday workers had been getting loads of extra pay for working on Sundays).
Anyway, this incident clearly seems to be some small, unimportant union trying to deny how small and unimportant it is.
There must be some serious cognitive dissonance at work within the union. Pilots are required to speak and read English reasonably well by ICAO recommendations. If they meet those criteria, they don't need documentation in French. If they need documentation in French, then they must not be fluent enough in English to fly safely internationally.
Unfortunately, technical translations tend to be terrible. Good translations are cripplingly expensive. Bad translations are dangerous. The French are very good at producing very bad translations.
It's bad enough that some English documentation is written by French people with a relatively poor grasp of English, as some examples cited here demonstrate. There are many faux amis (words that look the same but mean different things) between French and English, since so much English vocabulary (about 50%) derived originally from French. The confusions are just enough to dangerously impact safety.
One can only hope that Air France pilots are fluent enough in English to not require badly translated documentation in French. The inverse possibility—Air France pilots with such a poor grasp of English that they cannot read documentation in the language—is scary to contemplate.
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AnthonyGA,
Thanks!
Sensible write-up from somebody who obviously knows what he's talking about (unlike some here).
Those of you familiar with the union 'structure' in France will already know that the unions currently causing the 'troubles' only represent a tiny percentage of the total work force.
In this particular case, it's sillyness squared, because there IS a another significant majority pilots union, and these people are only a small minority crowd of 'dissidents' or 'militants' or whatever you want to call them.
They vary hugely, actually.
Don't confuse the user manual that comes with your DVD player with professional technical translations used in industries (such as aviation) where the translated document matters.
Not really. Compared to the amount of effort that went into the product, and the writing of the original documentation, the cost of the translation is usually peanuts. The real problem is that translation is usually done on the cheap and at the last possible minute, subcontracted to agencies, then parcelled out to people without the necessary specialist background, and not crosschecked and proofread properly because the company itself lacks the competence in the target language.
Been there... had to live with it....
I couldn't agree more.
A bit unfair.... (I'm not French, BTW). It's not the French in particular... look at your Chinese DVD manual. It's nearly always that not enough attention is given to produce accurate and reliable translations.
Personally, I can usually recognise English-language documentation, even fully professionally produced and accurate, where the source language was French.
Yes.... no.....
I can't comment really, because I usually read "across" those mistaeks, being so accustomed to them. It's a bit like the new Google translations... they're now rarely totally wrong, and I can usually guess what was written in the other language, and get the gist.
Same here....
CJ
Thanks!
Sensible write-up from somebody who obviously knows what he's talking about (unlike some here).
Anyway, this incident clearly seems to be some small, unimportant union trying to deny how small and unimportant it is.
In this particular case, it's sillyness squared, because there IS a another significant majority pilots union, and these people are only a small minority crowd of 'dissidents' or 'militants' or whatever you want to call them.
Unfortunately, technical translations tend to be terrible.
Don't confuse the user manual that comes with your DVD player with professional technical translations used in industries (such as aviation) where the translated document matters.
Good translations are cripplingly expensive.
Been there... had to live with it....
Bad translations are dangerous.
The French are very good at producing very bad translations.
Personally, I can usually recognise English-language documentation, even fully professionally produced and accurate, where the source language was French.
It's bad enough that some English documentation is written by French people with a relatively poor grasp of English...
I can't comment really, because I usually read "across" those mistaeks, being so accustomed to them. It's a bit like the new Google translations... they're now rarely totally wrong, and I can usually guess what was written in the other language, and get the gist.
One can only hope that Air France pilots are fluent enough in English to not require badly translated documentation in French. The inverse possibility—Air France pilots with such a poor grasp of English that they cannot read documentation in the language—is scary to contemplate.
CJ
Having commented on the French strikers thread, I have a question: THEY HAVE MORE THAN ONE PILOTS UNION? How the he'll does that work?
GF
GF
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Hi,
Little OT ...
The French worker is one of the least unionized in Europe (I think the Germans and Italians are the champions)
But in France .. when unions move (I mean in general) it's not just union members that move .. but the people following ... and all go in the street.
In France the democracy is expressed by ballot .. but it is also expressed in the street .. more than anywhere else ...
This must be the memories of the revolution .. and as I know .. there was not many people for take the Bastille ..
Little OT ...
Those of you familiar with the union 'structure' in France will already know that the unions currently causing the 'troubles' only represent a tiny percentage of the total work force.
But in France .. when unions move (I mean in general) it's not just union members that move .. but the people following ... and all go in the street.
In France the democracy is expressed by ballot .. but it is also expressed in the street .. more than anywhere else ...
This must be the memories of the revolution .. and as I know .. there was not many people for take the Bastille ..
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maybe ...
Just maybe ... Our French EU Cousins have got the balance between living and work correct ... and perhaps we should listen rather than following Uncle Sam helter sketlter to the American dream ... aka : work till you die and don't enjoy it ! .. just food for thought .. and the Fr model comes much to mind !!
