Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .
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Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals into..........French .
Following a court action from a minor Air France pilot's union, the airline has been sentenced to translate all of its manuals, approach plates ( common to both AF and KLM ), symbols decoding, tutorial, flight manuals, SOP's .......into french !!!
This decision is hailed as a huge victory by a fair number of pilots, leaving a whole lot others dead silent and probably speachless and very embarrassed.
AF has 6 months to comply after which it will be fined 5000 euro a day per manual not entirely translated.
This is lesson one on how to bring a global airline to its knees..........and ram some french into dutch throats !!
Why fly to the the moon when we already live in plain cloud cookoo land ?
For those interested and french fluent, I think you can fish this ruling somewhere on the net. I read it and can't stop sobbing eversince.
This no doubt, will help unemployed french pilots find a job abroad.
This decision is hailed as a huge victory by a fair number of pilots, leaving a whole lot others dead silent and probably speachless and very embarrassed.
AF has 6 months to comply after which it will be fined 5000 euro a day per manual not entirely translated.
This is lesson one on how to bring a global airline to its knees..........and ram some french into dutch throats !!
Why fly to the the moon when we already live in plain cloud cookoo land ?
For those interested and french fluent, I think you can fish this ruling somewhere on the net. I read it and can't stop sobbing eversince.
This no doubt, will help unemployed french pilots find a job abroad.
Last edited by Me Myself; 13th Oct 2010 at 13:15.
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" A minor union". How many do they have?
Is it seriously illegal now to have non French manuals for KLM?
How does this sit with European move towards english for aviation?
Is it seriously illegal now to have non French manuals for KLM?
How does this sit with European move towards english for aviation?
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minor would mean round about 200 members among 4400 AF pilots.
Approach plates are common to both AF and KLM and of course in english.
Guess what will happen when the french have to translate the dunno how many hundred plates ? Soaring costs for one thing. This applies to every word and symbol.
Enough to drive any sane person certified crazy.
As to how this sits with the european union.......I have no clue. The french have their own way as to what is legal or not and many a time have they told Bruxelles to s.d o.f.
If any legally able Prune member has a clue, feel free to chip in.
Approach plates are common to both AF and KLM and of course in english.
Guess what will happen when the french have to translate the dunno how many hundred plates ? Soaring costs for one thing. This applies to every word and symbol.
Enough to drive any sane person certified crazy.
As to how this sits with the european union.......I have no clue. The french have their own way as to what is legal or not and many a time have they told Bruxelles to s.d o.f.
If any legally able Prune member has a clue, feel free to chip in.
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So they'll have to carry duplicate copies in French and English?
Or is this silliness restricted to them merely making the translation, but doing nothing with it afterwards, which would be the perfect european pc insanity solution.
Or is this silliness restricted to them merely making the translation, but doing nothing with it afterwards, which would be the perfect european pc insanity solution.
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..of what i heard is that all air france pilots bluntly got from their authority an icao english level 6 without testing!!
so if this is true, they are all so much better than the rest of us and dont need this french translation ;-)
so if this is true, they are all so much better than the rest of us and dont need this french translation ;-)
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..of what i heard is that all air france pilots bluntly got from their authority an icao english level 6 without testing!!
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Sacrebleu!
It took years to purge the Airbus manuals of 'Franglais.' Phrases like "solicitation of the brakes..." instead of "application," and many more.
Air France/KLM must surely appeal this fatuous ruling.
It took years to purge the Airbus manuals of 'Franglais.' Phrases like "solicitation of the brakes..." instead of "application," and many more.
Air France/KLM must surely appeal this fatuous ruling.
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Ok, I found some links:
From AFP, in French:
AFP: Air France condamne en appel traduire en franais des documents techniques
Conservative newspaper Le Figaro (in French):
Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Air France/sécurité:des pilotes en colère
It is interesting to note that the reader's comments on that last article are overwhelmingly against the verdict.
Lastly, the union in question's web page (hosted on a free server
)
I haven't been able to find the text of the sentence, but from the news clippings above the gist of it is that it has been brought under the so-called Allgood Act, a super chauvinist law which has been causing nothing but trouble since it was enacted back in 1994. Its repeal is long overdue (notwithstanding that it should never have been passed in the first place, but there you go).
From AFP, in French:
AFP: Air France condamne en appel traduire en franais des documents techniques
Conservative newspaper Le Figaro (in French):
Le Figaro - Flash Actu : Air France/sécurité:des pilotes en colère
It is interesting to note that the reader's comments on that last article are overwhelmingly against the verdict.
Lastly, the union in question's web page (hosted on a free server
)I haven't been able to find the text of the sentence, but from the news clippings above the gist of it is that it has been brought under the so-called Allgood Act, a super chauvinist law which has been causing nothing but trouble since it was enacted back in 1994. Its repeal is long overdue (notwithstanding that it should never have been passed in the first place, but there you go).
Last edited by LH2; 13th Oct 2010 at 12:16. Reason: Forgot link
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LH2,
The law is called the "loi Toubon" from the name of the minister involved at the time.
The conclusions of the tribunal in the earlier court case, where the complaint of these clowns was thrown out, stated among others (translation Google, tidied by myself) :
- Airline pilots can only be issued with a license if they master the English language in international aviation;
- Air France is an international airline. The pilots it hires can be assigned on any route it operates;
- Air France pilots are required, according to the terms of their employment contract, to be capable to use the documents necessary for the exercise of their profession in English, international language in the aircraft industry.
I also noted in one of the 'comments' that somebody said that any pilot not capable of reading the documentation in English should be fired immediately for "faute grave", first for having been hired under false pretenses, and secondly for being a danger to aircraft and passengers.
One may also question the mentality and motivation of a union, that uses the professional incompetence of their members as an argument to start a court case, that exposes them to public ridicule....
CJ
The law is called the "loi Toubon" from the name of the minister involved at the time.
The conclusions of the tribunal in the earlier court case, where the complaint of these clowns was thrown out, stated among others (translation Google, tidied by myself) :
- Airline pilots can only be issued with a license if they master the English language in international aviation;
- Air France is an international airline. The pilots it hires can be assigned on any route it operates;
- Air France pilots are required, according to the terms of their employment contract, to be capable to use the documents necessary for the exercise of their profession in English, international language in the aircraft industry.
I also noted in one of the 'comments' that somebody said that any pilot not capable of reading the documentation in English should be fired immediately for "faute grave", first for having been hired under false pretenses, and secondly for being a danger to aircraft and passengers.
One may also question the mentality and motivation of a union, that uses the professional incompetence of their members as an argument to start a court case, that exposes them to public ridicule....
CJ
Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 13th Oct 2010 at 13:37.
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lh2
I'm not surprised the reader of Le Figaro would be shocked. The name Air France alone makes their blood boil, add pilots to that and it turns nuclear !
No, Air France pilots are not down right granted level 6 by the airline. They can only be tested up to 5. 6 can only be granted by the DGAC and that's outside of the compagny.
The too good law, standing for Toubon bill, bearing the name of a dubious minister who's IQ is one of a sparow.
Nevertheless, this bill has made numerous french compagny a living nightmare.
How this bill fits the european legal scenery remains to be assessed, and it very clearly needs to be done.
This ruling was made as an appeal from a 2008 ruling. The only remaining option is to go in " Cassation " meaning the ruling would have to be broken by the last legal authority.
In my opinion, this is a clear case where the law becomes illegal, but I no legal expert.
One thing is sure, it makes Air France look like the " Flintstones " and I would hope KLM goes up into a fit.
When you think the same people who made this claim are the same who would like to see a common freight department using both dutch and french crew, this is enough to make a wooden horse burst into laughter.
The dutch will have to display their utmost sense of humour.
As to me ? I need another hankie ! Sob !
I'm not surprised the reader of Le Figaro would be shocked. The name Air France alone makes their blood boil, add pilots to that and it turns nuclear !
No, Air France pilots are not down right granted level 6 by the airline. They can only be tested up to 5. 6 can only be granted by the DGAC and that's outside of the compagny.
The too good law, standing for Toubon bill, bearing the name of a dubious minister who's IQ is one of a sparow.
Nevertheless, this bill has made numerous french compagny a living nightmare.
How this bill fits the european legal scenery remains to be assessed, and it very clearly needs to be done.
This ruling was made as an appeal from a 2008 ruling. The only remaining option is to go in " Cassation " meaning the ruling would have to be broken by the last legal authority.
In my opinion, this is a clear case where the law becomes illegal, but I no legal expert.
One thing is sure, it makes Air France look like the " Flintstones " and I would hope KLM goes up into a fit.
When you think the same people who made this claim are the same who would like to see a common freight department using both dutch and french crew, this is enough to make a wooden horse burst into laughter.
The dutch will have to display their utmost sense of humour.
As to me ? I need another hankie ! Sob !
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Haven't you listened to French ATIS, first French then English? Like it or not, they can translate all they want, they will still have to comply with ICAO and that is English is the official language of ICAO.
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This is all actually quite sad and is the result of a very small group of individuals within a company who just want to stand out, damn the consequences..
As for the KLM side of AF/KLM, I don't think this will apply to us... Yes we do use the same navigation maps and plates, but that's pretty much it. Different Operation Manuals etc etc and off course different AOC's.
A lot of people see AF and KLM as one big company while in the operational part of things they are two very separate companies... (company ethos: 1 group, 2 companies, 3 businesses )..
As for the KLM side of AF/KLM, I don't think this will apply to us... Yes we do use the same navigation maps and plates, but that's pretty much it. Different Operation Manuals etc etc and off course different AOC's.
A lot of people see AF and KLM as one big company while in the operational part of things they are two very separate companies... (company ethos: 1 group, 2 companies, 3 businesses )..
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Another issue (that I have some personal knowledge of) is, that once French translations are available, only those are used, and the personnel (not only the pilots) start to forget the international (English) terminology, or at least certainly not keep it up-to-date.
The result in terms of confusion, misunderstanding, incomprehension and outright errors can easily be imagined.
The fact that French is not really a technical language doesn't help matters....
Oh, and another point (again from experience).
Translation is rarely done by people who are also experts in the particular field.
Even highly professional translators rarely know the exact terminology used in a particular industry, or - within that industry - by a particular company.
And since translation is nearly always done as an afterthought, and on the cheap, and rarely closely re-read by the client, some remarkable bludners and erruers do sometimes slip through...
Oh, one more....
Documentation (such as the approach plates mentioned earlier) has this nasty habit of continuously being amended, and evolving over time.
Unless the same organisation that maintains the documentation also keeps the translations up-to-date at the same time, doc and translation soon get out of sync....
Having Air France translating approach plates produced elsewhere is bound to result not only in operational problems, but probably also in legal ones....
Not for nothing does the French BEA state on the first page of their English-language accident reports that the translation is provided as a service, but that the only valid document is the French original.
The same will obviously apply to any English originals translated by Air France... only the original will have legal status.
CJ
The result in terms of confusion, misunderstanding, incomprehension and outright errors can easily be imagined.
The fact that French is not really a technical language doesn't help matters....
Oh, and another point (again from experience).
Translation is rarely done by people who are also experts in the particular field.
Even highly professional translators rarely know the exact terminology used in a particular industry, or - within that industry - by a particular company.
And since translation is nearly always done as an afterthought, and on the cheap, and rarely closely re-read by the client, some remarkable bludners and erruers do sometimes slip through...
Oh, one more....
Documentation (such as the approach plates mentioned earlier) has this nasty habit of continuously being amended, and evolving over time.
Unless the same organisation that maintains the documentation also keeps the translations up-to-date at the same time, doc and translation soon get out of sync....
Having Air France translating approach plates produced elsewhere is bound to result not only in operational problems, but probably also in legal ones....
Not for nothing does the French BEA state on the first page of their English-language accident reports that the translation is provided as a service, but that the only valid document is the French original.
The same will obviously apply to any English originals translated by Air France... only the original will have legal status.
CJ
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Oh, and another point (again from experience).
Translation is rarely done by people who are also experts in the particular field.
Translation is rarely done by people who are also experts in the particular field.
A long time ago a (potential - but that is another story) girlfriend called me in a panic.
She had just landed a rush freelance translation contract for an American textile machinery company (I did mention this was a long time ago) that needed to provide French manuals for a high tech loom they had sold to a former French colony in Africa.
Although she was truly multilingual, fluent in Russion, French and English she was totally non technical and had discovered that most of the technical terms did not appear in any dictionary she had access to.
I had exactly one semester of high school French but was in the computer field. The manuals were full of the typical barerly readable prose produced by engineers forced to write something. I could understand most of it, although never having seen the machine some context was lacking.
The "translation" was done in 2 steps, I first re-wrote sections using words that -could- be found in the dictionary and she then translated that into grammatically correct but likely totally baffling French.
If accuracy was in question she would translate the French back in to Egnlish.
Still wonder what the customer thought of the French version of:
"The machine for the interpreting of long ribbons of paper featuring small holes" (aka paper tape reader)