Air France sentenced to translate all its manuals in..........French .
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CJ, the Russians are using QFE and mmHg.
OTOH, Russian crews flying Boeings are using English terminology in the cockpit. It sounds really cute — extremely heavily accented English interspersed with very vernacular Russian.
OTOH, Russian crews flying Boeings are using English terminology in the cockpit. It sounds really cute — extremely heavily accented English interspersed with very vernacular Russian.
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to A7777
The correct translation would have been 'safety' reason...not 'security' as CJ mentioned.
Maybe, it's not such a bad idea to translate it after all
Reminder to CJ:
Sécurité=safety
Security=sûreté
Once again: Merriam-Webster Online
Maybe, it's not such a bad idea to translate it after all
Reminder to CJ:
Sécurité=safety
Security=sûreté
Once again: Merriam-Webster Online
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Indeed, but for a different reason than yours. The incident in question (CDG near miss, mixed languages identified as a contributing factor in investigation) is relevant here. One of the recommendations that came out of the BEA reports was that CDG ATC should be English only, in account of the safety implications. Everyone that mattered agreed with that at the time: Air France, CDG management, and ATC... unfortunately some obscure, minority ATC union (see the coincidence?) and some equally obscure right wing group objected, made a fuss, the politicians got involved 
and the rest is history.
Sorry I don't have references, although they can be found on the net--perhaps someone else can provide some.
and the rest is history.Sorry I don't have references, although they can be found on the net--perhaps someone else can provide some.
Psychophysiological entity
Some translation agency will be rubbing their hands together and employing a few willing hands,
It's going to need one heck of a translation agency, and willing hands with I.Q.s of 200, to SAFELY translate approach plates.
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Those interested in the problems of translation at large (and the concept of translation itself) may find an interesting read in the book "Dire quasi la stessa cosa" by Umberto Eco--which coincidentally I have in its French translation (dire presque la même chose, which strangely enough can be found at the Relays in CDG and ORY).
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Indeed, but for a different reason than yours. The incident in question (CDG near miss, mixed languages identified as a contributing factor in investigation) is relevant here. One of the recommendations that came out of the BEA reports was that CDG ATC should be English only, in account of the safety implications. Everyone that mattered agreed with that at the time: Air France, CDG management, and ATC... unfortunately some obscure, minority ATC union (see the coincidence?) and some equally obscure right wing group objected, made a fuss, the politicians got involved and the rest is history.
Which takes me to PJ2, your reply is well put, I was using the comparison to demonstrate the almost stubborn attitude that some pilots have: This/my way or you'll face certain death. I had also had interesting discussions about AP vs. handflying use and see similar (IMHO narrow-minded) type of arguments. But I don't want to hijack this thread more than I have already done.
Pilots from countries in which dual-language exists usually have no problem with dual language ATC than pilots from English only ATC countries (including Germany).
shortfuel your example of CJ's translation glitch shows that you and I understood what he was referring to. Maybe translation "glitches" are not as severe as one things?(Misspelled on purpose; but most would correctly assume that I mean "thinks" i.e. in the sense of believing).
It's going to need one heck of a translation agency, and willing hands with I.Q.s of 200, to SAFELY translate approach plates.
This thread has shown that the French language topic originates from a union issue and is not really a safety issue. As I don't want to open a huge can of worms and discuss union issues, this thread has additionally shown how hostile the French language in aviation is on pprune: On the first page, emotions were running high and it sounded that KLM pilots would have to learn French, then the almost classic French issue of dual language ATC was brought up. As most information given by others was nothing really new, it shows that is mainly a repetition of French bashing in classic pprune tradition. Do you really think the (negative) reaction would have been the same if Me Myself would be a pilot for COPA or TACA instead of Air France? I highly doubt it. It's the history of previous and current animosities that stirs up emotions.
EDIT:
@LH2: Do you have a copy of the incident report regarding the near-miss at CDG? (English or French it doesn't matter
)
Last edited by Squawk7777; 16th Oct 2010 at 10:55.
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At least in an English speaking forum you don't risk to be marked down like French snob -over protecting their language people love to do.
May I point out the obvious issue of losing SA when in a bilingual ATC environment. And this happens, as a BA skipper pointed out some years ago, when things become agitated hence requiring better SA.
Rwy in Sight
May I point out the obvious issue of losing SA when in a bilingual ATC environment. And this happens, as a BA skipper pointed out some years ago, when things become agitated hence requiring better SA.
Rwy in Sight
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translations
As LR mentions, it will take a particularly good translation agency to translate the manuals without it seeming to be a Google translation of the FCOM.
The degree of specialisation involved was brought home to me a few years ago when I needed to produce a French translation of an English policy document to the Hôtel des Impots (French tax authority).
I knew that a friend earned his living translating legal/financial/banking documents so asked him to translate four pages for me. He agreed but informed me that his accreditation was only for French ->English.
He translated the pages but annotated the translation to the effect that he believed the following to be a true translation of the pages but that his accreditation was only in French ->English.
DaveD
The degree of specialisation involved was brought home to me a few years ago when I needed to produce a French translation of an English policy document to the Hôtel des Impots (French tax authority).
I knew that a friend earned his living translating legal/financial/banking documents so asked him to translate four pages for me. He agreed but informed me that his accreditation was only for French ->English.
He translated the pages but annotated the translation to the effect that he believed the following to be a true translation of the pages but that his accreditation was only in French ->English.
DaveD
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May I point out the obvious issue of losing SA when in a bilingual ATC environment. And this happens, as a BA skipper pointed out some years ago, when things become agitated hence requiring better SA.
As a matter of fact this argument was brought up in the "French ATC" thread and it was dissected quite well. Quick summary:
* You don't need to know everything that's going on in your airspace.
* Most military colleagues will be on UHF.
* USA AOPA's statistics show that most mid-air collisions happen on a clear day in radar environment with both pilots speaking to the controller (in English)
* Bigger airports have multiple frequencies for TWR, GND, etc.
* TCAS, ASDE-X, etc have added to SA when the frequency gets busy.
I'd like to see your BA skipper keep up with all transmissions and SA and flying/managing his 747 into ORD on a really busy day.
But I guess I am not that all-knowing... Me Myself could you shed some light which documents/publications are in French and English at AF? (GOM, SOP, AOM, approach plates)
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Me Myself could you shed some light which documents/publications are in French and English at AF? (GOM, SOP, AOM, approach plates)
Approach plates are in english and shared together with KLM. They are in my view a hell of a lot better than our old in house plates that were in french.
Tutorials are both in french and english. SOP's are in french which turns into frenglish on aircrafts like the 777 where all the ECAM check lists are in english.
QRH is in french for the descriptive part, and english for the procedural part reflecting the ECAM.
MEL is both in french and english which has many times led to misinterpretations in the french version. In my view it should be in english only.
The idea was to have the aircraft's descriptive part stay in english like it's been from the onstart on the 777. This will have to change.
The important thing to understand is that if the ruling stands before the High Court ( Cassation ) , any other operator working under french law, will have to comply with this ruling, should any pilot under french contract make a claim. The Toubon Bill being part of the National Working Award, employers will have no other choice but to comply.
For all I know, all of them use Jeppesen approach plates and Boeing or Airbus flight manuals.
You can easily imagine the financial and logistic catastrophy this would be for smaller operators like XL, Corsair, Aigle Azur who are already walking on a shoe string. What about City jet's pilots based in Paris and operating under french award ? They would have legal cause to make the claim too..........leading to a huge operational and human ressources headache since a lot of City Jet's pilots are also anglo.
Once you start pulling that string, it becomes a nightmare and no financial small beer as described by some on this thread.
I hardly think this whole charade will help spreading the use of french or its culture around the world, nor will it make the french any more fluent in english.
As to safety, we spent the last 20 years having incidents and accidents with french written documents.
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It is difficult enough writing new changes to operating manuals in English, by supposed English native speakers. It is always entertaining when the latest changes are introduced.
On a different note; is it just me, of most of the world's various Air Traffic Centers....is Scottish about the most difficult to comprehend, maybe next to Paris approach?
On a different note; is it just me, of most of the world's various Air Traffic Centers....is Scottish about the most difficult to comprehend, maybe next to Paris approach?
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Dutch and Afrikaans speakers usually manage to understand each other better than English and Scottish speakers.... yet Dutch and Afrikaans are considered to be separate languages.
CJ
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777
How dare you ???
Haven't you heard Kelly McDonald speak ???? I get both chicken skin and goose bumps and I'm close to CFIT into the planet everytime one of those " Scottish " ladies is on the mike.
I think this is one of the most charming accents there is.
How dare you ???
Haven't you heard Kelly McDonald speak ???? I get both chicken skin and goose bumps and I'm close to CFIT into the planet everytime one of those " Scottish " ladies is on the mike.
I think this is one of the most charming accents there is.
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Me Myself, way way back I had the same reaction to a "particular" controller in CDG. . . . Oh, les regrets les regrets , les regrets, les regrets. . . . les regrets (with apologies to Alain Souchon) and her mother was English (imagine how painful that was for a Scot ) Still there, but infrequently "live", progressed a long time ago to higher echelons.
) Still there, but infrequently "live", progressed a long time ago to higher echelons.
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Rod Liddle in the Times today....
...has a few things to say about our neighbours over La Manche, to quote,
"what is the point of those awful, arrogant, people, those people still living in the 19th century and clinging like deranged limpets to their strange, disappearing lingo? Can't we just, henceforth, ignore them altogether?..."
and, "incidentally the French have also started carping about Eurostar's latest plan to use German-built Velaro trains through the Channel tunnel, on a new route which links London with Frankfurt, thus by-passing the noisome, forgotten, backwater of Paris. "Non!", said the transport minister Dominique Bussereau, utilising the only French word familiar to the rest of the world, and insisting that all the trains should be built by the French."
Comment? moi? mais non!
"what is the point of those awful, arrogant, people, those people still living in the 19th century and clinging like deranged limpets to their strange, disappearing lingo? Can't we just, henceforth, ignore them altogether?..."
and, "incidentally the French have also started carping about Eurostar's latest plan to use German-built Velaro trains through the Channel tunnel, on a new route which links London with Frankfurt, thus by-passing the noisome, forgotten, backwater of Paris. "Non!", said the transport minister Dominique Bussereau, utilising the only French word familiar to the rest of the world, and insisting that all the trains should be built by the French."
Comment? moi? mais non!
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Mary
A very eloquent and and constructive contribution to this thread.
It displays wisdom, restrain and knowledge.
I am deeply impressed and humbled.
A very eloquent and and constructive contribution to this thread.
It displays wisdom, restrain and knowledge.
I am deeply impressed and humbled.
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"what is the point of those awful, arrogant, people, those people still living in the 19th century and clinging like deranged limpets to their strange, disappearing lingo? Can't we just, henceforth, ignore them altogether?..."
(Actually, that point of view is also valid looking northbound on the south side of the channel.)Regarding trains, the certification and political issue is probably much bigger than one can imagine: The German railway DB tried to certify their class 152 in Austria where it would not get the certification. Through clever means the last 25 locomotives that were still on order with the German Railways were slightly changed to be identical with the Austrian Railway ÖBB class 1116. The modified DB class 152 was renamed class 182 being identical to the 1116 thus grudgingly getting approval to use Austrian rail. Don't only point your finger at the French, ignorance is universal.
Regarding German technology in their ICE-3 Velaro generation I suggest you read up this year's stories about tech issues with the ICE class 403 and 406 respectively. Non merci, moi je prends le TGV.
Last edited by Squawk7777; 18th Oct 2010 at 14:44.