Millionaire helicopter pilots to ferry emergency services...
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Pittsextra;
Who has said that?
I take it you haven't read the Mark Weir thread 
Who the **** are people here to claim he does or does not have the skills to fly?
Oddly these naysayers don't seem quiet so confident or vocal in their criticism with some accidents that have actually happened....
The arrogance in this thread is incredible.
To be useful, I say again USEFUL, to an emergency service you need to be available at all times, day and night, in all weathers, have the right skills and practice them regularly, and the right aircraft with the right equipment - it's no use if, for example, you cannot talk to the people you're offering to help or you lack the space or payload. It's great that people want to help. Perhaps I could help you in your line of work? I'm sure it must be simple.
It takes a bit more than
one or two have managed to fly these things without piling in.
Who said that? Well I think you get to about post 3 in this thread before, semantics aside, you get to the skill set element.
Yes read the Mark Weir thread and actually I'd agree with the people who claim he was an accident waiting to happen. Although one does notice a difference in tone between that thread and this one:-
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/329...june-08-a.html
Edited to add reply to Al-bert:-
In the end if this guy wants to spend £50bil on making some crazy stupid project who cares? No doubt it will be regulated in the same way and probably fail for all the reasons you claim but I was just commenting on the fact there are 15 pages of this and on more than one occasion its not much more than a personal attack on this guy.
Yes read the Mark Weir thread and actually I'd agree with the people who claim he was an accident waiting to happen. Although one does notice a difference in tone between that thread and this one:-
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/329...june-08-a.html
Edited to add reply to Al-bert:-
In the end if this guy wants to spend £50bil on making some crazy stupid project who cares? No doubt it will be regulated in the same way and probably fail for all the reasons you claim but I was just commenting on the fact there are 15 pages of this and on more than one occasion its not much more than a personal attack on this guy.
Last edited by Pittsextra; 14th Jan 2013 at 16:43.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Cumbria thread
Pittsextra, ring any bells?
Pittsextra;
Lets not add JP to the end of your list eh! 
Pittsextra;
TTB - I actually think this is the kind of post being hinted at:-
Quote:
You might decide to suggest that the judgement is wrong but never the less. In a thread of 10 pages what is quite interesting is that some people seem to "get it" within the first moments while others defend this insanity to the bitter end.
Jim, Reno, P51 or Mark, Cumbria, Gazelle. Same, same.
Quote:
The decision whether to fly or not is a different issue. The point I'm making is that Mark was a sound pilot and one should judge neither his decision process that night, nor his flying ability on some random YT clips.
Actually you can make a judgement on not just someones flying ability but their motivations and mental attitude from much of the published material.
Actually you can make a judgement on not just someones flying ability but their motivations and mental attitude from much of the published material.
Jim, Reno, P51 or Mark, Cumbria, Gazelle. Same, same.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Who said that? Well I think you get to about post 3 in this thread before, semantics aside, you get to the skill set element.
Post 3;
Just waiting for the surge of responses!
What you are looking at here is a frustrated professional pilot and when people with money can't be bothered to do what is required to satisfy their urgings they blag their way round by dressing-up their actions with good intentions.
Anyone committed to professionalism (private or otherwise) will be the first to impose a thick layer of requirements for pilots and ground crew so as to ensure they know what the heck they are doing.
I'd suggest anything less than 1,500 hours minimum experience would be folly and, as stated, a thick slab of healthy training for ground and air crews.
Paxton would be better off donating some money to his local air ambulance and the wealthy flyers better suited to a day trip to seaside.
Sorry, its the eternal optimist in me coming out.
What you are looking at here is a frustrated professional pilot and when people with money can't be bothered to do what is required to satisfy their urgings they blag their way round by dressing-up their actions with good intentions.
Anyone committed to professionalism (private or otherwise) will be the first to impose a thick layer of requirements for pilots and ground crew so as to ensure they know what the heck they are doing.
I'd suggest anything less than 1,500 hours minimum experience would be folly and, as stated, a thick slab of healthy training for ground and air crews.
Paxton would be better off donating some money to his local air ambulance and the wealthy flyers better suited to a day trip to seaside.
Sorry, its the eternal optimist in me coming out.
Now where does it mention that JP doesn't have be skills to fly?
Sure Silsoe - and as I said in my reply I agree vis Mark Wier, but not entirely sure what the 500 pilot guy has actually done? I mean if he was a 10K hour ex-mil test pilot would we be on page 15 of "this rich guy is a C U next tuesday"?
There are a lot of silly accidents, actually I don't think the recent EC225 issues show a great deal of intelligence, nor do I find much intelligence in that NH90 crash or indeed the accident in Harrogate with a Gazelle - although whilst a PPL is dead one might also note that neither the instructor, examiner or in fact CAA cover themselves in glory.
There are a lot of silly accidents, actually I don't think the recent EC225 issues show a great deal of intelligence, nor do I find much intelligence in that NH90 crash or indeed the accident in Harrogate with a Gazelle - although whilst a PPL is dead one might also note that neither the instructor, examiner or in fact CAA cover themselves in glory.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Yes read the Mark Weir thread and actually I'd agree with the people who claim he was an accident waiting to happen. Although one does notice a difference in tone between that thread and this one:-
No one is questioning anyone's Captaincy etc, but we all know in this type of business that the hardest thing to day is no .... even if the child from an earlier post is trapped in a car.
The difference being that the Cumbria thread highlighted that if someone had said something to Mark way before that night, things might have been different.
Personally I'd say this mil pilot was the biggest ego I've ever read about.
Hopefully JP is reading this and when for example a 'marginal weather' or 'late in the day' callout comes along, he doesn't make any wrong decisions.
Look I don't care about this emergency service privateer hero, headline grabber. I'm just highlighting the reality which is there are very many here that love to put the boot in to what they see as easy targets. When it comes to more obvious professionals the silence is deafening.
TC
I PM ed you Paxton's e mail address so you could advise him, have you done so ?
If so what reply did you get ?
SS
The examples may not be the best ( were used to show you can volunteer to do things and dont necessarily need to have a professional licence to be any good) but who are we to know what training he is doing or not.
My whole beef is the slagging he gets when people do not have the full facts, everyone is believing the press reports which just goes to show how nieve some on this forum are.
Some have put up some very good arguments that I have passed on others just see him as a rich boy trying to get the " I have seen it done it badge" eg "running round in a gas guzzling helicopter" actually his entire business and life is carbon neutral, anyone else claim that on here ?
I would expect a bit more professionalism, I would emplore SS and TC with your wealth of knowledge you should go and visit him and see what he is about. You might be pleasantly surprised you may not. When you have done that then by all means call him what you will.
I did not know the guy from Adam until asked to do his LPC a couple of years ago. Yes he is different to most can come over as a bit arrogrant but his heart is in the right place and wants to help and he always asks for advice, perhaps the likes of some on this should help steer him the right way, you never know it might work.
I was very synical about the Territorial Army serving on Ops with regular guys as they were part timers and not professionals, actually had to eat humble pie as in some cases they were better and more motivated.
If nothing else this makes for interesting interludes form gardening in the rain over a tea
I PM ed you Paxton's e mail address so you could advise him, have you done so ?
If so what reply did you get ?
SS
The examples may not be the best ( were used to show you can volunteer to do things and dont necessarily need to have a professional licence to be any good) but who are we to know what training he is doing or not.
My whole beef is the slagging he gets when people do not have the full facts, everyone is believing the press reports which just goes to show how nieve some on this forum are.
Some have put up some very good arguments that I have passed on others just see him as a rich boy trying to get the " I have seen it done it badge" eg "running round in a gas guzzling helicopter" actually his entire business and life is carbon neutral, anyone else claim that on here ?
I would expect a bit more professionalism, I would emplore SS and TC with your wealth of knowledge you should go and visit him and see what he is about. You might be pleasantly surprised you may not. When you have done that then by all means call him what you will.
I did not know the guy from Adam until asked to do his LPC a couple of years ago. Yes he is different to most can come over as a bit arrogrant but his heart is in the right place and wants to help and he always asks for advice, perhaps the likes of some on this should help steer him the right way, you never know it might work.
I was very synical about the Territorial Army serving on Ops with regular guys as they were part timers and not professionals, actually had to eat humble pie as in some cases they were better and more motivated.
If nothing else this makes for interesting interludes form gardening in the rain over a tea
"If nothing else this makes for interesting interludes from gardening in the rain over a tea"
What her indoors let you stop just because of rain, has she stopped the men in white coats collecting the 3 of us then she must be going soft
What her indoors let you stop just because of rain, has she stopped the men in white coats collecting the 3 of us then she must be going soft
Hughes 500
I share the concerns about a part time pilot who has never worked with the emergency services being let loose in a helicopter. He may be a competent pilot but the pressure on an individual who has to fly and navigate and task a mission is incredible. I respond to RTCs in a specially modified car after 20 years of intermittent police driving instruction. The medical care is a Doddle compared with the driving. The idea of flying has not surprisingly often crossed my mind but only for a millisecond as I don't think I nor anyone else could do it. Even an experienced HEMS pilot would struggle
However, as someone who is not an armchair commentator, my main concern is not seeing my favourite ship burning in a field but the hassle of dealing with this chap on scene. Every member of the emergency service has a designated role. I need every fireman to help me with trapped drivers and passengers not wander off to get unnecessary equipment out of a 500
Don't need him. Don't need his equipment. Don't need his passengers. Period
I share the concerns about a part time pilot who has never worked with the emergency services being let loose in a helicopter. He may be a competent pilot but the pressure on an individual who has to fly and navigate and task a mission is incredible. I respond to RTCs in a specially modified car after 20 years of intermittent police driving instruction. The medical care is a Doddle compared with the driving. The idea of flying has not surprisingly often crossed my mind but only for a millisecond as I don't think I nor anyone else could do it. Even an experienced HEMS pilot would struggle
However, as someone who is not an armchair commentator, my main concern is not seeing my favourite ship burning in a field but the hassle of dealing with this chap on scene. Every member of the emergency service has a designated role. I need every fireman to help me with trapped drivers and passengers not wander off to get unnecessary equipment out of a 500
Don't need him. Don't need his equipment. Don't need his passengers. Period
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homonculus
I don't understand you ,this guy is a cpl he has been trained to carry passengers and cargo he is licenced to do this so why can't he carry passengers and tools
Is not like he's going to fight fires or medevac
I don't understand you ,this guy is a cpl he has been trained to carry passengers and cargo he is licenced to do this so why can't he carry passengers and tools
Is not like he's going to fight fires or medevac
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Sorry Pitts, you'll have to enlighten us to more of Capt. Filippo Fornassi's history. I know he was an instructor and died in this incident NH90 Crashes into Italian Lake
Did he have a history such as that B-52 pilot, or simply
up on the day, just like DK?
Did he have a history such as that B-52 pilot, or simply
up on the day, just like DK?
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I'm only a ppl I've not learned the answers to the questions yet although I'm half way through it. Cpl V Ppl it's all about time in the saddle please don't think for one minute your safer with a cpl. I've flown with dozens of em
Massive difference in flying standards I've got ppl students who wipe the floor with cpl and likewise.
Just cos you have learned the answers dose not change your flying ability
Time in the saddle and that it full stop
Massive difference in flying standards I've got ppl students who wipe the floor with cpl and likewise.
Just cos you have learned the answers dose not change your flying ability
Time in the saddle and that it full stop
Hi - I have no idea the history of this pilot (although as we can read in the Harrogate Gazelle accident you only need one shunt, one mistake) - but aerobatics or display flying is not just a case of having a go and seeing how it works out.
I'm not sure if or where the accident report is but it would make an interesting read.
Some years ago a Hawk training jet solo demo crashed after performing a poorly executed barrel roll. The pilot was a well respected BAe test pilot who sadly died.
The point I guess is that even the most highly trained and experienced guys make errors. If you look at the 2012 helicopter accident reports actually there are more CPL holders than PPL listed - in fact at least 2 of the PPL holders listed have several 1000 hours experience.. Not just wealthy low time joyriders.
I'm not sure if or where the accident report is but it would make an interesting read.
Some years ago a Hawk training jet solo demo crashed after performing a poorly executed barrel roll. The pilot was a well respected BAe test pilot who sadly died.
The point I guess is that even the most highly trained and experienced guys make errors. If you look at the 2012 helicopter accident reports actually there are more CPL holders than PPL listed - in fact at least 2 of the PPL holders listed have several 1000 hours experience.. Not just wealthy low time joyriders.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I didn't think anyone was getting too personal here. I'm sure JP has suggested this trial with all good intent and with no other motives or agendas.
What many here mis-assume is that those 'in the business' don't think he should be doing this because he is 'an amateur'.
Wrong, the concerns are purely of safety, attitude and the likelyhood of pushing things too far, rather than lose face. We don't want him to end up in one of the many situations talked about in CRM classes.
I think we could even put up with a few bending of the rules, as they can be sorted out later, what we can't put up with is too many of the cheese slices lining up without anything being said.
Perhaps it can be put even more simply by saying that some of us can see situations arise before they become an incident without the use of google and rose tinted glasses, thrown in amongst the culture here of defending 'one of your own'. Mistakes are made regardless of where we trained, what our background is, what particular stream of aviation we follow and wether or not we are required to be current CRM etc.
The Dame Shirley episode highlights that even with a very simple A-B mission (Glastonbury to Battersea) JP has shown the temptation of pushonitiss and a denial regarding the seriousness of a situation, which surely must raise alarm bells.
If that flight had a dying child trapped in a car at point B (the hotel), just how much further do we think he would have pushed on...maybe that extra 200m towards the diversion destination at Pennyhill Park Hotel ...straight into the wires inbetween the sixth form college and the hotel?
We don't really care if the trial is a success or not, those in the Fire & Rescue world will decide if it goes further, what we here care about is losing a fellow aviator for a silly avoidable reason that has probably been covered in the last 15 pages.
What many here mis-assume is that those 'in the business' don't think he should be doing this because he is 'an amateur'.
Wrong, the concerns are purely of safety, attitude and the likelyhood of pushing things too far, rather than lose face. We don't want him to end up in one of the many situations talked about in CRM classes.
I think we could even put up with a few bending of the rules, as they can be sorted out later, what we can't put up with is too many of the cheese slices lining up without anything being said.
Perhaps it can be put even more simply by saying that some of us can see situations arise before they become an incident without the use of google and rose tinted glasses, thrown in amongst the culture here of defending 'one of your own'. Mistakes are made regardless of where we trained, what our background is, what particular stream of aviation we follow and wether or not we are required to be current CRM etc.
The Dame Shirley episode highlights that even with a very simple A-B mission (Glastonbury to Battersea) JP has shown the temptation of pushonitiss and a denial regarding the seriousness of a situation, which surely must raise alarm bells.
If that flight had a dying child trapped in a car at point B (the hotel), just how much further do we think he would have pushed on...maybe that extra 200m towards the diversion destination at Pennyhill Park Hotel ...straight into the wires inbetween the sixth form college and the hotel?
We don't really care if the trial is a success or not, those in the Fire & Rescue world will decide if it goes further, what we here care about is losing a fellow aviator for a silly avoidable reason that has probably been covered in the last 15 pages.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Pitts;
post 290
post 297
Please explain your first comment ref Capt.Fornassi who, may I remind you, was an instructor and probably not as you put just 'having a go and seeing how it works out'!
post 290
Personally I'd say this mil pilot was the biggest ego I've ever read about.
I have no idea the history of this pilot
Please explain your first comment ref Capt.Fornassi who, may I remind you, was an instructor and probably not as you put just 'having a go and seeing how it works out'!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
A couple of things;
H500; not that IMHO this is a PPL/CPL issue, because as cyclic flare says its about experience not the type of licence, can you confirm what licences JP actually has. I get the feeling it is CPL(A) and PPL(H) as oppossed to CPL(A) & CPL(H)
Anyone; In reference to the operating site, is planning permission required to allow movements of this nature?
H500; not that IMHO this is a PPL/CPL issue, because as cyclic flare says its about experience not the type of licence, can you confirm what licences JP actually has. I get the feeling it is CPL(A) and PPL(H) as oppossed to CPL(A) & CPL(H)
Anyone; In reference to the operating site, is planning permission required to allow movements of this nature?
Md 600 driver
Why is this different from a scheduled task to say a wedding? Well......
So Mr P has just got home and his wife is hassling him about some bills and the kids are fighting and he opens his mail to find someone is suing Him and his blood pressure is rising when the phone goes. A child is going to burn to death unless he can get somewhere north of town x ASAP. Control isn't sure of he location but will update en route
Not sure about fuel and weather is unchecked but only minutes to spare and nobody to help. The adrenaline is flowing and he is dashing around desperate to save seconds.
And half way there control changes the location
And wants updates on his capabilities
And on arrival there is nowhere en scene to put down
And it is getting dark
Now add in the need to stop en route and pick up manpower and equipment which can't be strapped down, and there is no time to brief them, plus all the other uncertainties that occur in reality and I submit is isn't the recipe for a safe flight. I suspect many FW colleagues would have gone home a long time ago.
In HEMS missions we have taskers, ground crew, checked aircraft, pilots on standby with no other duties, 2 pilots or at least a paramedic to help with nav, a crew used to disembarking safely with purpose designed equipment, and emergency services en scene who need them and have been briefed about the interface
Sorry, the more I think of it the more I worry. Even after 20 years of supporting ambulance services by road I need to control my emotions and tell my controller not infrequently to leave me alone to get on with the driving. Unlike my colleagues who drive front line ambulances full time, I know the occasional call is due to someone in real trouble and assessed by my colleagues en scene. Believe me the pressure is on
Why is this different from a scheduled task to say a wedding? Well......
So Mr P has just got home and his wife is hassling him about some bills and the kids are fighting and he opens his mail to find someone is suing Him and his blood pressure is rising when the phone goes. A child is going to burn to death unless he can get somewhere north of town x ASAP. Control isn't sure of he location but will update en route
Not sure about fuel and weather is unchecked but only minutes to spare and nobody to help. The adrenaline is flowing and he is dashing around desperate to save seconds.
And half way there control changes the location
And wants updates on his capabilities
And on arrival there is nowhere en scene to put down
And it is getting dark
Now add in the need to stop en route and pick up manpower and equipment which can't be strapped down, and there is no time to brief them, plus all the other uncertainties that occur in reality and I submit is isn't the recipe for a safe flight. I suspect many FW colleagues would have gone home a long time ago.
In HEMS missions we have taskers, ground crew, checked aircraft, pilots on standby with no other duties, 2 pilots or at least a paramedic to help with nav, a crew used to disembarking safely with purpose designed equipment, and emergency services en scene who need them and have been briefed about the interface
Sorry, the more I think of it the more I worry. Even after 20 years of supporting ambulance services by road I need to control my emotions and tell my controller not infrequently to leave me alone to get on with the driving. Unlike my colleagues who drive front line ambulances full time, I know the occasional call is due to someone in real trouble and assessed by my colleagues en scene. Believe me the pressure is on
Things are starting to slide here. Let's recap and correct me if I go off track Hughes500:
Q1: Is JP a CPL.
Q2: Is JP offering his services 'only' as a taxi driver, ie: carrying persons and equipment from a legitimate landing zone to another legitimate landing zone?
Q3: Is JP offering his services to support the fire services across the spectrum: transporting pax/equipment, flying over built up areas to offer aerial support using thermal imagers or/and a comms link, landing inside built up areas to transfer persons/equipment, ferrying pax to and from RTC's, fire bucket, transfer of casualties from a fire......day or night?
Q4: Does JP have 'any' emergency training/experience both aerial or ground based?
There......all said and done without mentioning the "£" word.
Q1: Is JP a CPL.
Q2: Is JP offering his services 'only' as a taxi driver, ie: carrying persons and equipment from a legitimate landing zone to another legitimate landing zone?
Q3: Is JP offering his services to support the fire services across the spectrum: transporting pax/equipment, flying over built up areas to offer aerial support using thermal imagers or/and a comms link, landing inside built up areas to transfer persons/equipment, ferrying pax to and from RTC's, fire bucket, transfer of casualties from a fire......day or night?
Q4: Does JP have 'any' emergency training/experience both aerial or ground based?
There......all said and done without mentioning the "£" word.
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 14th Jan 2013 at 20:44.