Millionaire helicopter pilots to ferry emergency services...
Egos, schmeegos. Oh the irony!
The idea may be flawed in many ways, but I don't understand why that should cause such an anti-collegial reaction from those who call themselves professional. The knee-jerk assumption that he's a PPL and therefore an accident to happen is rather predictable - and sad. With his IR and other experience, he sounds a lot more qualified than many CPLs I know; I'm not certain what he did to deserve being labelled a 'prat'.
The idea may be flawed in many ways, but I don't understand why that should cause such an anti-collegial reaction from those who call themselves professional. The knee-jerk assumption that he's a PPL and therefore an accident to happen is rather predictable - and sad. With his IR and other experience, he sounds a lot more qualified than many CPLs I know; I'm not certain what he did to deserve being labelled a 'prat'.
Last edited by toptobottom; 27th Nov 2012 at 10:06.
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Dunkerque Spirit
Many of the little ships that helped at Dunkerque came from the nautical equivalent of our PPL population so one might use that analogy to contemplate some kind of role for aviation resources.
The important step required before any such contemplation became a reality would be to address the issues CRAB and others have tabled:
Training
Communications
Equipment
Tasking
Regulation
My experience in the world of HEMS & POLICE leads me to be at one and the same time grateful and anxious when it comes to 'volunteers'. Those who tend to want to help seem to fall into a couple of categories - (a) Willing and able, & (b) willing and a liability . 'Well meaning' does not necessary deliver a positive contribution and therein lies the rub.
Maybe Mr Paxton should learn to walk before he tries the running bit.
G.
The important step required before any such contemplation became a reality would be to address the issues CRAB and others have tabled:
Training
Communications
Equipment
Tasking
Regulation
My experience in the world of HEMS & POLICE leads me to be at one and the same time grateful and anxious when it comes to 'volunteers'. Those who tend to want to help seem to fall into a couple of categories - (a) Willing and able, & (b) willing and a liability . 'Well meaning' does not necessary deliver a positive contribution and therein lies the rub.
Maybe Mr Paxton should learn to walk before he tries the running bit.
G.
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Well, if he wants to set up a charitable trust with an AOC I'm sure his chief pilot will get him suitably trained in the role if his ability and experience is to the insurers' taste. And they get suitable airframe/s. And. And. And. But it will be an expensive and unsatisfying experience I fear. How many times in the last 10 years has there been an application for this service? Gonna spend a long time in the crewroom, aren't they?
Bambi buckets have been around for yonks. Have they ever been used in anger in UK to any significant degree?
This thing is self-limiting. Done properly it might work - economics aside which alone will scupper it, do it on the buckshee and the system won't let it get past the publicity headlines.
Bambi buckets have been around for yonks. Have they ever been used in anger in UK to any significant degree?
This thing is self-limiting. Done properly it might work - economics aside which alone will scupper it, do it on the buckshee and the system won't let it get past the publicity headlines.
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SolsoeSid - I am with "Tam" on this one. You are way off the mark. The guy does a stunt for Charity and you use it in a negative way.
Have you forgotten that HRH the Duke of York did the same stunt and he is a helicopter pilot too with a fine record in the FI for flying into the smoke from burning vessels with his Seaking to help the lads who were in deep trouble.
Maybe you want to get some in before you continue trashing this blokes reputation. Have a go at me instead. At least I probably deserve it!!
Spend just a few moments thinking how your thoughtless childish jibes send such a poor message about our profession to a guy who we should really be encouraging as "One of our Own".
Posting the drivel that you do does not make you seem clever. It just brings the rest of us down into the mire with you.
H500 - I am with you on this one. I feel sorry for the poor bloke. Please give hime a message from me. Tell him not all PPRUNE posters are "Prats" and good luck to him and well done for having the guts to land with a VIP on board rather than press on.
DB
Have you forgotten that HRH the Duke of York did the same stunt and he is a helicopter pilot too with a fine record in the FI for flying into the smoke from burning vessels with his Seaking to help the lads who were in deep trouble.
Maybe you want to get some in before you continue trashing this blokes reputation. Have a go at me instead. At least I probably deserve it!!
Spend just a few moments thinking how your thoughtless childish jibes send such a poor message about our profession to a guy who we should really be encouraging as "One of our Own".
Posting the drivel that you do does not make you seem clever. It just brings the rest of us down into the mire with you.
H500 - I am with you on this one. I feel sorry for the poor bloke. Please give hime a message from me. Tell him not all PPRUNE posters are "Prats" and good luck to him and well done for having the guts to land with a VIP on board rather than press on.
DB
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BBC BBC News - Jeremy Paxton's helicopter help for Wiltshire fire service
I don't see this going ahead without being lawful etc. So (hopefully) the trial will be legal and it will take place.
Now suppose, just for a minute.......
The trial takes place
It is a fantastic success; the Fire Service realise what a valuable asset it is to have a helicopter on standby
But a single-engined machine is not always capable of doing what we want
And a private machine ie not always available..... [thinks].....
Let's have our own! Full time, crewed, etc.
Or at least let's have an extra machine with the Police and duel-use
Glass half-full? Anyone?
I don't see this going ahead without being lawful etc. So (hopefully) the trial will be legal and it will take place.
Now suppose, just for a minute.......
The trial takes place
It is a fantastic success; the Fire Service realise what a valuable asset it is to have a helicopter on standby
But a single-engined machine is not always capable of doing what we want
And a private machine ie not always available..... [thinks].....
Let's have our own! Full time, crewed, etc.
Or at least let's have an extra machine with the Police and duel-use
Glass half-full? Anyone?
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Hey Guys,
Everyone seems to be mud slinging here. There also seems to be a huge misconception between PPL's and CPL's/ATPL's. Lets not forget that incidents have occurred whilst both/all categories of license holder have been PIC of an aircraft.
Lets set the record straight here a little bit. The main difference between a CPL and a PPL is that the CPL is allowed to use his/her license privileges for the purposes of hire and reward. Although there is a training programme and examinations, that does not necessarily guarantee that the CPL holder is in any way a better, or a more capable pilot, than a PPL.
As I've said earlier, I have at least one friend (in fact two) who are CPL holders and they both have less than 250 hours total time. They simply chose to continue their training to the CPL.
As far as Jeremy Paxton goes, I've met him once and read about him loads. He's certainly an interesting character and in the press regularly. I couldn't possibly comment on his flying ability or attitude, but he is an aircraft owner. I believe he flies very regularly and has 1000's of hours. I would imagine that he has the requisite skills to undertake most reasonable helicopter trips.
Whilst we may not all understand or agree with this scheme, there are obviously schemes in other countries where all forms of assistance from volunteers are accepted. Would there be a problem 'in principle' if I saw an emergency services person running down a flooded street somewhere and offered to drive him in my 4x4 to the other end of it ? I guess not.
Similarly, if a specialist surgeon needed to be transported to an accident site that was inaccessible by road for whatever reason, would there really be any issue with Jeremy transporting him, if no other aircraft were available. Let's not forget that if the surgeon happened to live next door to Jeremy and knocked on to his neighbours house, Jeremy could quite easily land him in a field nearby to the incident without breaking any laws, (save for trespass potentially which is a tort and not a criminal offence) and without flying outside the privileges of his license .
I'm neither for nor against the idea, but I think everyone is getting over excited about the complexities of the mission here. It's sounds to me (regardless of how unlikely the chance of it happening is) that Jeremy would simply be giving someone a lift to the scene of an incident. I would imagine he's quite capable of accomplishing that mission without incident.
Joel
Everyone seems to be mud slinging here. There also seems to be a huge misconception between PPL's and CPL's/ATPL's. Lets not forget that incidents have occurred whilst both/all categories of license holder have been PIC of an aircraft.
Lets set the record straight here a little bit. The main difference between a CPL and a PPL is that the CPL is allowed to use his/her license privileges for the purposes of hire and reward. Although there is a training programme and examinations, that does not necessarily guarantee that the CPL holder is in any way a better, or a more capable pilot, than a PPL.
As I've said earlier, I have at least one friend (in fact two) who are CPL holders and they both have less than 250 hours total time. They simply chose to continue their training to the CPL.
As far as Jeremy Paxton goes, I've met him once and read about him loads. He's certainly an interesting character and in the press regularly. I couldn't possibly comment on his flying ability or attitude, but he is an aircraft owner. I believe he flies very regularly and has 1000's of hours. I would imagine that he has the requisite skills to undertake most reasonable helicopter trips.
Whilst we may not all understand or agree with this scheme, there are obviously schemes in other countries where all forms of assistance from volunteers are accepted. Would there be a problem 'in principle' if I saw an emergency services person running down a flooded street somewhere and offered to drive him in my 4x4 to the other end of it ? I guess not.
Similarly, if a specialist surgeon needed to be transported to an accident site that was inaccessible by road for whatever reason, would there really be any issue with Jeremy transporting him, if no other aircraft were available. Let's not forget that if the surgeon happened to live next door to Jeremy and knocked on to his neighbours house, Jeremy could quite easily land him in a field nearby to the incident without breaking any laws, (save for trespass potentially which is a tort and not a criminal offence) and without flying outside the privileges of his license .
I'm neither for nor against the idea, but I think everyone is getting over excited about the complexities of the mission here. It's sounds to me (regardless of how unlikely the chance of it happening is) that Jeremy would simply be giving someone a lift to the scene of an incident. I would imagine he's quite capable of accomplishing that mission without incident.
Joel
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tobias
Jeremy would simply be giving someone a lift to the scene of an incident. I would imagine he's quite capable of accomplishing that mission without incident.
G.
DB ......I don't know what pills you have started taking .....but don't stop 
I know you are a v professional pilot but at least you can see that some life saving operation can be done safely by a non cpl ....if done with normal care and no heroics .....
We got the typical Col Blimp sort of crap from TC that we have all come to expect ....I find it amazing that a pilot who preens himself so much is not capable of having a discussion without resort to name calling
For myself I would agree there would probably not be a lot of times where it could slot in without possibly disrupting other services ....but you don't have to save many lives for it to be well worth while . I have landed and picked up firefighters and taken them to the top of a moorland fire , saving them a 45 mins slog up the hill and then took the chief up to see where it was spreading to and find some access . They were v grateful and reckoned it saved 1,000 s of acres . If asked I would quite happily , and safely , land on a road or nearby field with equipment or people . Some of you here are just so insecure .....but IF your child was lying on the ground somewhere inaccessible you would be VERY happy to put them into a private helicopter to be taken to a waiting ambulance I am quite sure . If you say otherwise TC ...then who is the prat then ???
I know you are a v professional pilot but at least you can see that some life saving operation can be done safely by a non cpl ....if done with normal care and no heroics .....
We got the typical Col Blimp sort of crap from TC that we have all come to expect ....I find it amazing that a pilot who preens himself so much is not capable of having a discussion without resort to name calling
For myself I would agree there would probably not be a lot of times where it could slot in without possibly disrupting other services ....but you don't have to save many lives for it to be well worth while . I have landed and picked up firefighters and taken them to the top of a moorland fire , saving them a 45 mins slog up the hill and then took the chief up to see where it was spreading to and find some access . They were v grateful and reckoned it saved 1,000 s of acres . If asked I would quite happily , and safely , land on a road or nearby field with equipment or people . Some of you here are just so insecure .....but IF your child was lying on the ground somewhere inaccessible you would be VERY happy to put them into a private helicopter to be taken to a waiting ambulance I am quite sure . If you say otherwise TC ...then who is the prat then ???
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
DB;
I was hoping to leave it at the letter post to H500, however;
Firstly you must remember that a lot of people do charity events for different reasons. For example, there is a difference between those that run the London Marathon to raise money for charity. Some support a charity to run the marathon, while some run the marathon to support a charity.
Prince Andrew was a highly trained Naval Pilot. Trained by highly experienced instructors over a long and intense period of time during which phases are built in to chop the candidates not up to the grade. (Not simply the ones with loads of money). Oh, just one little point.....he was flying the incident you mention during a war!
How much 'in time' do I need to have your permission to express my opinion and I'd be very interested to know what I need in order to be 'in'?
My childish jibes and drivel, as you put it, are there purposely in this instance NOT to encourage "one of our own", because I don't want 'our' numbers to decrease more than can possibly be avoided.
There is a great difference between saving lives or doing what is necessary as the incidents suddenly present themselves, but to set up a private Thunderbirds operation with a bunch of mates seems to me, at best, foolhardy. I'm sure that there might be a few floater jobs around or why not set up a properly organised and managed reaction unit if someone wants to do the emergency service type flying. However, ask yourself the question...why don't they want to do it that way?
SolsoeSid - I am with "Tam" on this one. You are way off the mark. The guy does a stunt for Charity and you use it in a negative way.
Have you forgotten that HRH the Duke of York did the same stunt and he is a helicopter pilot too with a fine record in the FI for flying into the smoke from burning vessels with his Seaking to help the lads who were in deep trouble.
Maybe you want to get some in before you continue trashing this blokes reputation. Have a go at me instead. At least I probably deserve it!!
Spend just a few moments thinking how your thoughtless childish jibes send such a poor message about our profession to a guy who we should really be encouraging as "One of our Own".
Posting the drivel that you do does not make you seem clever. It just brings the rest of us down into the mire with you.
Have you forgotten that HRH the Duke of York did the same stunt and he is a helicopter pilot too with a fine record in the FI for flying into the smoke from burning vessels with his Seaking to help the lads who were in deep trouble.
Maybe you want to get some in before you continue trashing this blokes reputation. Have a go at me instead. At least I probably deserve it!!
Spend just a few moments thinking how your thoughtless childish jibes send such a poor message about our profession to a guy who we should really be encouraging as "One of our Own".
Posting the drivel that you do does not make you seem clever. It just brings the rest of us down into the mire with you.
Firstly you must remember that a lot of people do charity events for different reasons. For example, there is a difference between those that run the London Marathon to raise money for charity. Some support a charity to run the marathon, while some run the marathon to support a charity.
Prince Andrew was a highly trained Naval Pilot. Trained by highly experienced instructors over a long and intense period of time during which phases are built in to chop the candidates not up to the grade. (Not simply the ones with loads of money). Oh, just one little point.....he was flying the incident you mention during a war!
How much 'in time' do I need to have your permission to express my opinion and I'd be very interested to know what I need in order to be 'in'?
My childish jibes and drivel, as you put it, are there purposely in this instance NOT to encourage "one of our own", because I don't want 'our' numbers to decrease more than can possibly be avoided.
There is a great difference between saving lives or doing what is necessary as the incidents suddenly present themselves, but to set up a private Thunderbirds operation with a bunch of mates seems to me, at best, foolhardy. I'm sure that there might be a few floater jobs around or why not set up a properly organised and managed reaction unit if someone wants to do the emergency service type flying. However, ask yourself the question...why don't they want to do it that way?
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NigelH - I could not agree with you more. At the end of the day the helicopter is a fantastic tool that has always proven its worth time and again in emergency response.
Lets not forget of course that Rule 6 allows a little latitude for "Saving Lives". (Had to slip a little rule in there to make me feel better).
Mr Paxton has been flying for 30 years. That makes him a survivor in my book whether he has a PPL, CPL or an ATPL. I wish I had 30 years expereince under my belt when I was flying HEMs!!!
I think he has a good idea that properly deployed, could make a real difference. As other poster have noted there are approvals and guidelines to follow so why should we worry!!
Surely we should applaud him for promoting helicopters, doing good stuff and trying to help people.
NigelH - I knew we would see eye-to-eye one day (Ash cloud aside!!!)
silsoesid - if you are only "worried" about safety - why do you find it necessary to make fun of the charitable work the man is doing - and try to infer that he enjoys "Risk"???
DB
Lets not forget of course that Rule 6 allows a little latitude for "Saving Lives". (Had to slip a little rule in there to make me feel better).
Mr Paxton has been flying for 30 years. That makes him a survivor in my book whether he has a PPL, CPL or an ATPL. I wish I had 30 years expereince under my belt when I was flying HEMs!!!
I think he has a good idea that properly deployed, could make a real difference. As other poster have noted there are approvals and guidelines to follow so why should we worry!!
Surely we should applaud him for promoting helicopters, doing good stuff and trying to help people.
NigelH - I knew we would see eye-to-eye one day (Ash cloud aside!!!)
silsoesid - if you are only "worried" about safety - why do you find it necessary to make fun of the charitable work the man is doing - and try to infer that he enjoys "Risk"???
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 27th Nov 2012 at 14:10.
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THOMAS COUPLING - Are you a Pilot??? If so why is an H500 a "1/2 Ton Hand Grenade". I though it was a nice looking little helicopter.
If I had enough money I would have a helipad in my garden and invite NigelH in for a coffee now we are freinds!!
DB
If I had enough money I would have a helipad in my garden and invite NigelH in for a coffee now we are freinds!!
DB
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 27th Nov 2012 at 14:15.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Just read through Rule 6 DB, can't see what you're referring to, please paste for us.
I am not making fun of anything, I am simply saying that different people do charity work for different reasons. (Strange that he abseiled down the shard for the Royal Marines Charitable Trust, when his brother was a Para)
I don't infer he enjoys risk, I just quoted him earlier when he reportedly said "...my brother was in the SAS from the paras and served in the Regiment from 1986 to 1991..
...He always loves it when I take risks."
Still waiting to see how I can qualify for your, 'In Crowd'!
silsoesid - if you are only "worried" about safety - why do you find it necessary to make fun of the charitable work the man is doing - and try to infer that he enjoys "Risk"???
I don't infer he enjoys risk, I just quoted him earlier when he reportedly said "...my brother was in the SAS from the paras and served in the Regiment from 1986 to 1991..
...He always loves it when I take risks."
Still waiting to see how I can qualify for your, 'In Crowd'!
JT and DB - I don't think anyone is saying that a private helicopter shouldn't be used to save lives if the occasion arises and there is one available.
What is being criticised is the level of publicity Mr Paxton is giving himself about his desire to do this.
If a member of the public can help the emergency services because they are in the right place and at the right time with the right skills and equipment that is wonderful - I think it is called community spirit.
But - what would you say to someone who owns a landrover and put out a press release (with a picture of himself in black overalls) to say he would follow the fire and rescue service around just in case they needed him?
It is not his sentiments that are wrong here - it is the way he has gone about this - doesn't he know all superheroes keep their identity secret and only appear in public when their services are required???
What is being criticised is the level of publicity Mr Paxton is giving himself about his desire to do this.
If a member of the public can help the emergency services because they are in the right place and at the right time with the right skills and equipment that is wonderful - I think it is called community spirit.
But - what would you say to someone who owns a landrover and put out a press release (with a picture of himself in black overalls) to say he would follow the fire and rescue service around just in case they needed him?
It is not his sentiments that are wrong here - it is the way he has gone about this - doesn't he know all superheroes keep their identity secret and only appear in public when their services are required???
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Hi Crab
I agree that if generosity and charitable work is the aim here then it's best kept quiet. I do think though, that some people are making a clear distinction between the abilities of private pilots compared to professional ones. (Even though Jeremy Paxton is a professional pilot I believe, although not by occupation.) The inference being, that private pilots are less capable/competent than professional pilots. If I'm wrong in my interpretation, then I apologise.
Geoffersin cornwall - i agree that adrenalin can spoil your day. I did allude to this though in my reference to all license holders potentially coming to grief.
And my name's Joel !!!! (no offence taken!!)
Joel
I agree that if generosity and charitable work is the aim here then it's best kept quiet. I do think though, that some people are making a clear distinction between the abilities of private pilots compared to professional ones. (Even though Jeremy Paxton is a professional pilot I believe, although not by occupation.) The inference being, that private pilots are less capable/competent than professional pilots. If I'm wrong in my interpretation, then I apologise.
Geoffersin cornwall - i agree that adrenalin can spoil your day. I did allude to this though in my reference to all license holders potentially coming to grief.
And my name's Joel !!!! (no offence taken!!)
Joel
The cynic in me wonders if the fire and rescue service are supporting this as a means of trying to prove they need their own helicopters. It was only a short time ago they announced they would have their own dedicated fleet of helos only to be smacked down by DfT (I think) on the grounds of cost vs limited requirement.
If Jeremy's helo can get one high profile job (where they deliberately won't have tasked SAR or military assets), it will give Trumpton a stick to beat central govt with.
Empire building perhaps
And for the record, I don't think his piloting skills are in question - after all he is only going to be required to take off and land, possibly in a confined area, by day with some pax and a limited amount of kit (pods sounds very grand) on board.
If Jeremy's helo can get one high profile job (where they deliberately won't have tasked SAR or military assets), it will give Trumpton a stick to beat central govt with.
Empire building perhaps
And for the record, I don't think his piloting skills are in question - after all he is only going to be required to take off and land, possibly in a confined area, by day with some pax and a limited amount of kit (pods sounds very grand) on board.
Any idea what might be in a 'pod' small enough and light enough to fit in or under a 500 that would be essential kit to the fire service but not routinely carried in one of those massive red trucks with blue lights on?
Hope it's not too essential in case Mr P's 500 is in maintenance, or he is doing his day job, or the weather is iffy, or its dark, or he's just has a beer........
Hope it's not too essential in case Mr P's 500 is in maintenance, or he is doing his day job, or the weather is iffy, or its dark, or he's just has a beer........
homonculus any help
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Further to crabs post, the whole idea was indeed scrapped on financial reasons;
http://www.essex-fire.gov.uk/images/...S_APPENDIX.pdf
22 July 2009
EFA/082/09
Helicopter Feasibility Study Report
FIRE BRIGADES UNION
IMMEDIATE RELEASE 10th August 2009
CASH STRAPPED ESSEX FIRE AUTHORITY SAYS IT HAS SO LITTLE CASH IT NEEDS TO CUT FRONTLINE FIREFIGHTERS – BUT WANTS A HELICOPTER!
An Essex fire authority plan to buy a helicopter has been branded as “toys for boys” by the Fire Brigades Union. The union says any available money should be spent on frontline fire services threatened with £3 million of cuts because of a budget squeeze.
The fire authority plans to cut one in ten frontline station-based firefighters because it says it needs to save £3 million. But plans to buy a helicopter were set out at a Fire Authority meeting on 24 July and the meeting approved spending on a feasibility study.
Essex Fire Brigades Union chair Keith Flynn said: “Frontline crews are furious the fire authority is demanding major cuts to the 999 emergency response, while taking steps to buy a helicopter. This is the worst kind of “toys for the boys” spending in the middle of a budget squeeze.
“No other fire authority in the UK has a helicopter. It is totally unnecessary and especially so in the middle of a budget squeeze.
“Every penny of any available money must go to protecting the frontline 999 emergency response service. The fire authority needs to get its head out of the clouds and come back down to the real world where the rest of us live.”
Helicopter Feasibility Study Report: EFA/082/09
Fire Authority Paper EFA/082/09 – tabled at the last fire authority meeting on 24 July - committed the FRA to finding additional funding to carry out a feasibility study into the purchase of a helicopter. The paper is available from the fire authority website.
***ENDS***
IMMEDIATE RELEASE 10th August 2009
CASH STRAPPED ESSEX FIRE AUTHORITY SAYS IT HAS SO LITTLE CASH IT NEEDS TO CUT FRONTLINE FIREFIGHTERS – BUT WANTS A HELICOPTER!
An Essex fire authority plan to buy a helicopter has been branded as “toys for boys” by the Fire Brigades Union. The union says any available money should be spent on frontline fire services threatened with £3 million of cuts because of a budget squeeze.
The fire authority plans to cut one in ten frontline station-based firefighters because it says it needs to save £3 million. But plans to buy a helicopter were set out at a Fire Authority meeting on 24 July and the meeting approved spending on a feasibility study.
Essex Fire Brigades Union chair Keith Flynn said: “Frontline crews are furious the fire authority is demanding major cuts to the 999 emergency response, while taking steps to buy a helicopter. This is the worst kind of “toys for the boys” spending in the middle of a budget squeeze.
“No other fire authority in the UK has a helicopter. It is totally unnecessary and especially so in the middle of a budget squeeze.
“Every penny of any available money must go to protecting the frontline 999 emergency response service. The fire authority needs to get its head out of the clouds and come back down to the real world where the rest of us live.”
Helicopter Feasibility Study Report: EFA/082/09
Fire Authority Paper EFA/082/09 – tabled at the last fire authority meeting on 24 July - committed the FRA to finding additional funding to carry out a feasibility study into the purchase of a helicopter. The paper is available from the fire authority website.
***ENDS***
22 July 2009
EFA/082/09
Helicopter Feasibility Study Report
Despite the very positive outcomes of the feasibility study it is clear that the project would only be viable at this time for mainstream use if external funding is secured. Either/or Government grant and sponsorship are the most likely mechanisms that would need to be secured and as such, for mainstream use, these should be the focus of ongoing work.