UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[SilsoeSid]

By your comments you are obviously not in police aviation

Does that include the comment that goes..."When I came into this business in 2003..."

[SilsoeSid]

Aah - but in a 902 ( as driven by B1.3..)

Shouldn't that be, ( as maintained by ...)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Shame that the limited number of 902's is also being cut under NPAS

I think the amount of time they spent on the ground U/S had some thing to do with that.

[morris1]

The Laws Of thermodynamics.. OR You dont get out more than you put in..!

So will someone please tell me how with a thirty percent reduction in a/c (and staff) there will NOT be reduction in provision for the Officers on the ground??

Are we really saying that less equalls more..?

Have we been doing thing SO badly, that someone is going to come with a magic wand, and make everyone perform 30% more efficiently than we do now.?

No.
The reality is, that major incidents will always see an a/c.
Murders and high profile searches will always see an a/c
Major firearms jobs will always see an a/c
(just like now)

Officers chasing a suspect thru gardens WONT get an a/c
Stolen motorbikes razzing around school fields WONT get an a/c
Intruders on at commercial properties WONT get an a/c
ie actual police work where collars get felt... WONT get an a/c

why ?
because too few a/c have too far to travel and are spread too thinly to be effective.

But at least we will all (we the chosen ones anyway) have a shiny new NPAS badge and will all be in the same boat. hurrah..

the biggest casualty is the actual police work being done as it is now. Getting the cops on board, to the job, to do the police work is what its all about.

We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use.

[B1.3 Drifter]

Is that a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers and then go back to pick up the observers that you already had on board because we aren't talking about flying without observers

Ahhhh???? yes you were (post 1730 again)

apart from dumping the 2 observers ?

And so was wagging finger, read the posts.
Remember we are talking about exceptional cicumstances, the unit will do whatever it takes to get those firearms officers on site quickly.

Who ever mentioned a firearms guy sitting in the front?

No one, I was illustrating a point that the front seat could still be occupied by an observer, weight permitting

Unless you are in a unit that regularly flies more than 12 hrs in a 24 hr period, that is absolute nonsense.

Not neccesarily. Lets think about it a minute. (something you fail to do regularly)
First; the figure 1700 hrs/year has been thrown about. That is a lot of very busy helicopters that obviously wont be airbourne for 12 hours but there is a high possibility that at least one will be up at any given time in a particular region.
Second; A shooter pops up in a Sheffield (chosen because they wont have a helicopter there). Lets pretend North Mids and Humberside are both sitting on the ground at their respective bases, crew are feet up in the office or tea room. West Yorkshire is airborne on tasking but still has plenty of fuel on board. Which one are you going to send to Sheffield. Quite possibly more than one for the suggested situaton but the first on site will be the one thats already flying. Of course in this situation they will all be slightly down on fuel by the time the get to Sheffield.

Yes, there could arise a situation where the local helicopter is on the ground fully fueled and they want to lift the firearms officers from their current location.
Yes in this situation it could well take time to offload enough fuel and equipment to lift.
Of course on site engineers(what a clever idea) would help but no doubt NPAS are in favour of a single maintenance base 3 or 4 hours drive from most units(increased downtime, less available flying hours).

[SilsoeSid]

So will someone please tell me how with a thirty percent reduction in a/c (and staff) there will NOT be reduction in provision for the Officers on the ground??

Perhaps by sensible positioning of bases and deployment descisions remaining with the units themselves and not being made 'centrally'.

Have we been doing thing SO badly, that someone is going to come with a magic wand, and make everyone perform 30% more efficiently than we do now.?

Maybe, just maybe, if someone was to make a retrospective audit, we would find out that everthing that was done in the past was wasteful and not very well coordinated.

The reality is, that major incidents will always see an a/c.
Murders and high profile searches will always see an a/c
Major firearms jobs will always see an a/c
(just like now)

Absolutely, and so they should.

Officers chasing a suspect thru gardens WONT get an a/c
Stolen motorbikes razzing around school fields WONT get an a/c
Intruders on at commercial properties WONT get an a/c
ie actual police work where collars get felt... WONT get an a/c

I would have to disagree and say that as long as the deployment descisions were left at unit level, these tasks would still go ahead...as they are now, under the regional shadow services that are going on as we speak!

because too few a/c have too far to travel and are spread too thinly to be effective.

Unless positioning of bases is looked at sensibly.
Lets not forget that the 20 minute circle is from where the aircraft is and not neccesarily where the ac is based!

We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use

That comment is simply an insult to everyone involved in air support

[SilsoeSid]

B1, may I respectfuly suggest you read your own posts before clicking on the 'submit reply' button.

Nobody's talking about doing 'ugent jobs' without an observer on board, just a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers, after which the pilot would RTB to collect the observers.

In your own words, you have deployed the firearms officers without observers on board!

As you like to refer to post 1730, you'll notice that in that post I said, "Me...I'd like an observer with me...."
What is so difficult to understand about that?

[SilsoeSid]

Remember we are talking about exceptional cicumstances, the unit will do whatever it takes to get those firearms officers on site quickly.

Quite correct, however as long as that whatever doesn't mean exceeding weights, CoG's and complies with what is written in the PAOM!

[SilsoeSid]

SS

Unless you are in a unit that regularly flies more than 12 hrs in a 24 hr period, that is absolute nonsense.

B1
Not neccesarily. Lets think about it a minute. (something you fail to do regularly)
First; the figure 1700 hrs/year has been thrown about. That is a lot of very busy helicopters that obviously wont be airbourne for 12 hours but there is a high possibility that at least one will be up at any given time in a particular region.

Firstly lets stop getting personal here.
Now then, yes the 1700 hrs figure was mentioned here, but if you read the post fully, you'll see that it was an example figure and therefore cannot be taken in any context as a useable figure.


What you said was;

Chances are pretty good that the aircraft will already be flying when it becomes apparent that there is a need for firearms involvement so the aircraft wont be fully fueled

Contrary to your comment, I did think about it and in order to say that the chances are pretty good that the aircraft will be airborne when needed, does actually mean that the aircraft would have to be in the air for a greater time than it is on the ground. I would also stick my neck out and say from experience, that the chances are that even regionally it wouldn't be so.
Thats the thing about chance, you have to stack the odds in your favour to succesfully predict them!

[morris1]

Maybe, just maybe, if someone was to make a retrospective audit, we would find out that everthing that was done in the past was wasteful and not very well coordinated.

so EVERYTHING we have done in the past has been wasteful not very coordinated..? Well Im sure plenty of other units around the uk would disagree that they are doing such a crap job of things at the moment..!

Perhaps by sensible positioning of bases and deployment descisions remaining with the units themselves and not being made 'centrally'.

Have you seen the circles on maps where south yorks are being removed..?
And deployment decisions will not be made locally, hence the approach to BTP to act as nationwide despatch (which i believe they have kindly refused), the search is on for someone else to host the central despatch function.

Lets not forget that the 20 minute circle is from where the aircraft is and not neccesarily where the ac is based!

Well my unit will be taking up the slack from a removed a/c.. who i know are currently flying 1200hrs a year.. I can tell you now that we will rarely if ever be within 20 mins of their main current operating area, neither will the adjoining a/c surrounding it. Thats a lot of hours to be made up, and i assume the removed a/c's home force who will be paying for provision will expect to see a/c over their city when requested.
So we are going to fly 20mins (at best) to assist officers in a foot chase or a pursuit, 2 counties away?.. (and thats IF you find about it while its happening and not ten minutes after the cops on the ground have lost sight of the suspect and put the request thru to the NPAS control room.)

But your wrong about the 20 min circles anyway, because the ones drawn on the maps from NPAS are indeed from the bases that remain.

Quote:
We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use
That comment is simply an insult to everyone involved in air support

No.. I stand by that.. I am in air support and i think youll find people have thicker skins than that..!
We will end up turning up too little, too late, to be effective.
We will however have nice long transit times to take in the scenary..

Most units around the uk seem to think that NPAS will mean the same old job but with a bigger area.. Thats not the case. Central despatch and tasking will take all local decision making out of the hands of individual units.
Maybe you will be "able" to deploy to local tasks, but your not a "local" asset anymore, you dont belong to your local force, you have no ties to them financially, logisticaly, operationaly.. you can only deploy with permission from central despatch, because you wont know what other deployments they may have waiting for you..!
Deployments are to be controlled centrally (hence the "national" bit of the name and the hunt for a host force plus the administritive duties).

And on top of all that no one actually knows whos job is safe and whos are going, or whether you will need to apply in a competitive process for your own job..

sounds like a winner..!!

[SilsoeSid]

Lets not get hung up about fast response times, urgency and 'special operations' here. Any urgent job depends on effective C3I and we aren't going to be launching blindly into the wild blue.

At the moment we need to concentrate on getting our normal roles right in the developing system which will happen in one form or another. No matter what we think or say here, things will change whether we like them or not.

It's all red herring stuff this firearms scenario anyway isn't it.
Yes we will all do what is needed, when needed with what we have at the time. For example, the ac may well be full of fuel, the firearms guys may well be on the other side of the county/region, the guys you had at training 5 months ago may be on leave and it's the other shift that are waiting for you, or already en-route to the pick up point!
Improvise, adapt and overcome all iaw PAOM.

Anyone know how much kit a firearms guy carries? What does it all weigh? What about the grab bag and ballistic shield?
I do, I asked first hand this afternoon!
What will you use, despatchers harness or their own working at height harness?



It has been said; "too few a/c have too far to travel and are spread too thinly to be effective."
However if ac are moved closer to the areas of higher crime, or stay where they are purely because they are closer, then surely they will be more effective. After all, how can we predict when the next job will be? Past figures, local knowledge maybe, which is why some units are now staying where they are!

We cannot predicy Mr Lone Wolf going on a rampage in the middle of nowhere where there has never been a crime before....besides, whatever happens, wherever it happens, most of it will be over after the first 5 minutes, while we are listening to it cracking off on the radios.

In reality what will happen?
IMHO, it will be launch the alert 5 downlink ac

[morris1]

People arent against change.
If the money has run out than fair enough.

Personally I find it insulting to peoples intelligence that a simple cost cutting exercise is dressed up as better service.

Frankly I would respect those in the driving seat much more if they just put their hand up and said "we need to cut costs, we cant afford all the a/c, we will provide a service that is different to the one as it is now, and some people wont get an aircraft when previously they have had one.."

What is wrong with that?, its merely the truth of the situation, as proposed.!

But to stand up and say we can provide a BETTER service with a third less resources than we now have is the stuff of disney..

In 2 years time ask the people and cops of Liverpool and Sheffield how much better their ASU provision is..!

[SilsoeSid]

Sorry Morris, I was doing that last post while you posted.

so EVERYTHING we have done in the past has been wasteful not very coordinated..?

I don't think I said that, but if we are able to make considerable savings without the NPAS changes as has been muted, something must have been not quite right!

Have you seen the circles on maps where south yorks are being removed..?
And deployment decisions will not be made locally,

I have indeed and the North West circles also still baffle me !
The deployment side of things hasn't really been confirmed yet has it, so you can't really say that.

I can tell you now that we will rarely if ever be within 20 mins of their main current operating area, neither will the adjoining a/c surrounding it.

Not really based on any facts yet though is it?
Besides, don't you wonder why the ac or facilities haven't actually been removed yet?

But your wrong about the 20 min circles anyway, because the ones drawn on the maps from NPAS are indeed from the bases that remain.

What I am saying about the 20 min reaction time circles is that if the ac is at base, the stationary circles on the map are fixed. When the ac is in the air, the circle moves with them. Therefore with an airborne aircraft some areas will indeed get better coverage!

We will end up turning up too little, too late, to be effective.
We will however have nice long transit times to take in the scenary..

This is becoming to be a bit of a myth, especially when things are put into practise. Closest ac takes the job works, you can't predict where the job will be, but you can have a good guess where it might be.

Central despatch and tasking will take all local decision making out of the hands of individual units.

Deployments are to be controlled centrally (hence the "national" bit of the name and the hunt for a host force plus the administritive duties).

I think you'll find there will be a bit of, 'we are now deploying to...' going on. That whole point of everything being totally controlled centrally is another myth started at the beginning of this whole process. Things have moved on from there, local radios, computers and mobiles won't be removed and the picture painted earlier of an ops room with nothing more than a silent telephone and a crew waiting for it to ring is so old hat now!

We are about to become the PCSO's of the sky.. nice to see around but cock all use

Well, I would put it to you that most of us in the Air Ops business wouldn't consider ourselves as 'cock all use' as you put it. That is totally an attitude some will try and nurture in their unit as the self appointed 'union member' that would then eventually bring the unit and everyone in it down



Problem is that I can see where you are coming from and I can also see you allowing your shift to think along the lines of, 'Lets not rush, it will all be over by the time we get there'.
As sure as eggs is eggs, with that train of thought...it will be!
We will all gradually be closed down and some of you will smugly say to yourselves, 'Told you so'.
You would have got your desired result, only because you made it so!

[SilsoeSid]

Morris, I totally agree with your last post.

In 2 years time ask the people and cops of Liverpool and Sheffield how much better their ASU provision is..!

Surely though in the meantime, we have to do what we can to support them as best we can. I know we will be round these parts.

[Phil Space]

I see the autocrat in charge of Cleveland Police and his deputy have been arrested!
BBC News - Cleveland Police Chief Constable Sean Price suspended

A busy place for a chopper in the past.

What have you got to say about that Silsoe?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

The problem is the police always make it work. Officers have to much pride to make it fail cause you didn't want the scrotes taking the P. From the lack of officers on the ground to routinely breaching the policy on taking prisoners to custody with an escorting officer. Truth is the future is a lack of bobbies on the street is leading to a lack if jobs for air support. If there is no one out there to chase the scum there us no need for air support. Maybe NPAS have an idea about what's coming so it will work. Don't make the job losses any easier to take.

[morris1]

'Lets not rush, it will all be over by the time we get there'.

Sorry but your very, very wide of the mark there. Ive been a cop for 23 years and in Air Support for more than ten. My job is to support colleagues on the ground who rely on us to get results where ground resources cant. My commitment to it and that of my colleagues is will remain despite the obstacles put in place by people who know very little about the work. Now in my third decade of police work Ive seen many daft ideas come and go. I wish you luck with the rose tinted future your looking at.

safe flying
good hunting

morris1 signing off...

[SilsoeSid]

Before you go Morris, under the new plans contrary to this threads SoP, there will be better services and efficiencies, for some straight away, for others later.

Yes there will clearly need to be a lot of tweeking here and there, even so far as the possible re-birth of some units and we all know this wasn't introduced in the best of ways.

Under the 'borderless', 'nearest aircraft goes to task', way of working, (call it the NPAS plan if you will), some, not all, parts of the country will actually be seeing a helicopter more often... if it is needed.

From personal experience, living in a town with a population of 25,500+, tourist visitors annually in the region of 4 million, a river and canal system, huge areas of countryside and host to many major festivals, we hardly saw the force helicopter, maybe as we are quite a way (20 mins flying?) from the ASU base or maybe because the jobs simply weren't there. Yes it would occasionally be in the area, but possibly not as often or as quickly as local officers would like.

Under the new system, instead of having the 'local helicopter' more than 30 miles away, it is now half that distance. Surely that is more efficient and is providing a better service locally at a regional level. (We aren't national yet!)



p.s. SoP does not stand for 'Statement of the Oldest Person'!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Under the new system, instead of having the 'local helicopter' more than 30 miles away, it is now half that distance. Surely that is more efficient and is providing a better service locally at a regional level. (We aren't national yet!)

Which kind if only works if you live in a big city. What about the rural areas losing out.

[SilsoeSid]

Which kind if only works if you live in a big city. What about the rural areas losing out.

As I do not live in a big city, but a town in a rural area as my last post says, that would suggest that it does work, doesn't it !