UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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DFD has a good point - there will be units, possibly not operating currently to a full 20 or 24, who will need enhanced manning under the new struture. If they're currently manned to 3 FTE and maximising their FTL, an increase in Pilot complement will be required.
But I'm puzzled by jayteeto's comment? A lot of NPAS calculations are based (I'm led to believe) on the expectation that an ASU is most financially efficient when flying around 1300-1500 hours per year. With breaks for servicing, (& no spare aircraft) that averages out around 5 hrs per 24 hrs, whether working 20 or 24, - so 3.6 hrs would be deemed a low-hour day. There are plenty of busy units operating at that rate, I think you'll find . . . and also a number of others sitting around waiting to "go over the top"!
But I'm puzzled by jayteeto's comment? A lot of NPAS calculations are based (I'm led to believe) on the expectation that an ASU is most financially efficient when flying around 1300-1500 hours per year. With breaks for servicing, (& no spare aircraft) that averages out around 5 hrs per 24 hrs, whether working 20 or 24, - so 3.6 hrs would be deemed a low-hour day. There are plenty of busy units operating at that rate, I think you'll find . . . and also a number of others sitting around waiting to "go over the top"!
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Around the time of the original NPAS plan last October the 'thinking' was that each unit would fly around 1700 flying hours per year, this would include the 8 to 10 weeks using the allocated spare. So units that currently do around 1400 would carry on at about the same rate and those that do less will actually get to fly, free of local budget restrictions at last!
As for the TUPE topic, it's not simple, but the direct employ pilots will either be TUPE'd into the new setup or be made redundant by their existing employing force. It seems clear that NPAS would not want to take on pilots just to make them redundant the next day, the only issue is who pays the redundancy payment ( the responsibility is with the current employer).
As for the TUPE topic, it's not simple, but the direct employ pilots will either be TUPE'd into the new setup or be made redundant by their existing employing force. It seems clear that NPAS would not want to take on pilots just to make them redundant the next day, the only issue is who pays the redundancy payment ( the responsibility is with the current employer).
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directly employed pilots
once again all conjecture and speculation......
I happened across a rumour detailing the proposed schemes of financial savings to be introduced by NPAS over the next few years.
It intimates that NPAS directly employ pilots as a cost saving. I wonder if it would therefore be prudent that NPAS TUPE all directly employed pilots at commencement and then backfill with subcontracted/self employed pilots.
Can subcontracted pilots go back to their parent company's to be reassigned elsewhere????
Would that in effect negate a Nationwide/Europeanwide recruitment drive?????? Which would be a legality with the onset of a new National service.
Would it also negate redundancy packages/constructive dissmissal costings which have not been included in the supposed cost savings????
Please excuse me if i am being naive, I am just trying to understand the enormity of the turbulent journey ahead...
I happened across a rumour detailing the proposed schemes of financial savings to be introduced by NPAS over the next few years.
It intimates that NPAS directly employ pilots as a cost saving. I wonder if it would therefore be prudent that NPAS TUPE all directly employed pilots at commencement and then backfill with subcontracted/self employed pilots.
Can subcontracted pilots go back to their parent company's to be reassigned elsewhere????
Would that in effect negate a Nationwide/Europeanwide recruitment drive?????? Which would be a legality with the onset of a new National service.
Would it also negate redundancy packages/constructive dissmissal costings which have not been included in the supposed cost savings????
Please excuse me if i am being naive, I am just trying to understand the enormity of the turbulent journey ahead...
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It would seem that as time goes on and without any contradiction from NPAS, all the pilots are up a very turbulent creek without anything like a paddle and the end state will only become apparent when that email arrives at 17:30 on a Friday afternoon. I find it unbelievable that they [NPAS] have no idea what the plan is for the future employ or otherwise of the pilots who have done nothing less that provide a loyal and professional service.
Last edited by Digital flight deck; 26th Jul 2011 at 17:37.
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Future police pilots and crews
Its no secret that the miltary presently fly all NCIS missions here in the UK. Could they be looking at providing all pilots/crews for future NPAS police/surveillance ops? Think of NI but on a grander scale than just talking to the Garda. Change of cap badge maybe?
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Can subcontracted pilots go back to their parent company's to be reassigned elsewhere????
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Saw on the news tonight about the shootings in Norway. The image of that mad man stood over the bodies was taken by a news chopper. The police helicopter was stuck in the south of the area. Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins.
Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker.
Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker.
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The police helicopter was stuck in the south of the area. Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins.
Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker.
Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker.
Surely in this country we have 'other resources' available for this sort of thing.
'Resources' on 24/7 standby with the ac correctly fuelled, crewed and role'd. Able to land ad hoc under 'black light' with practised and current crews, carrying trained and practised 'firearms persons'.
SS
Look at West Cumbria and Derek Bird....(and then they used the Firearms guys from Windscale and an RAF SAR cab).
Surely in this country we have 'other resources' available for this sort of thing.
'Resources' on 24/7 standby with the ac correctly fuelled, crewed and role'd. Able to land ad hoc under 'black light' with practised and current crews, carrying trained and practised 'firearms persons'.
'Resources' on 24/7 standby with the ac correctly fuelled, crewed and role'd. Able to land ad hoc under 'black light' with practised and current crews, carrying trained and practised 'firearms persons'.
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Around the time of the original NPAS plan last October the 'thinking' was that each unit would fly around 1700 flying hours per year, this would include the 8 to 10 weeks using the allocated spare. So units that currently do around 1400 would carry on at about the same rate and those that do less will actually get to fly, free of local budget restrictions at last!
How many (of the remaining / planned to remain ) Units currently fly 1400+ Hrs each year ? - Not many I imagine.
Flying 1700 Hrs a year, even on a 24 Hr operation, taking into account inevitable down time due to weather & serviceability,
may mean a considerable increase in flying for a lot of Unit pilots ( a reason for not needing so many ????
)Have NPAS consulted the CAA to consider the potential impact of such an increased workload & demand on pilots to fly these extra hours,
and consequently are there any plans to change the FTL's - one way or another ?
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Look at West Cumbria and Derek Bird....(and then they used the Firearms guys from Windscale and an RAF SAR cab).
PEER REVIEW INTO THE RESPONSE OF CUMBRIA CONSTABULARY
FOLLOWING THE ACTIONS OF DERRICK BIRD ON 2nd JUNE 2010.
No mention of Police helicopters carrying firearms teams, however;
Coincidentally that day, the BBC was filming an episode of “Helicopter Heroes” with the Yorkshire Air ambulance. This air ambulance service was deployed to West Cumbria as a result of the murders that occurred and in doing so, the BBC camera crew were conveyed straight to the scene of the incident.
Armed response arrangements
In common with other forces of a similar demographic nature, Cumbria Constabulary’s ARV’s are not deployed solely on firearms related duties. On a day to day basis their main duties relate to roads policing. The vehicles are however also equipped as ARV’s crewed by Authorised Firearms Officers (AFO).
In common with other forces of a similar demographic nature, Cumbria Constabulary’s ARV’s are not deployed solely on firearms related duties. On a day to day basis their main duties relate to roads policing. The vehicles are however also equipped as ARV’s crewed by Authorised Firearms Officers (AFO).
How many units could readily do that?
So to have a go at NPAS in the Norway scenario is IMHO a bit below the belt, however, highlighting where West Cumbria is in the 20 minute circle plan might be above.
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Of all the digs we have had at NPAS, this has to be the lamest.
Give me a break.. get the military in for a job like this in under an hour..!!
Your having a laaaff..
Maybe if its within 10 miles of hereford.. but anywhere else and your stuffed..
As far as SAR are concerned, they work on 15 min readiness during the day and 45 min at night... to get airborne..!!
The military are good are what they do, but this isnt it..!!
So sorry old bean, the best/only airborne resource is actually the locally based Police a/c with crews that no know the area, the comms, the procedures and the cops.
Shame theyre all going really..!!!
what a cluster ****
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Surely in this country we have 'other resources' available for this sort of thing.
But why would you need it when you have a chopper to do the spotting (it's job) the ARV boys to do the job. All available 24/7. But only if the government have not moved them miles away to save money.
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Give me a break.. get the military in for a job like this in under an hour..!!
Your having a laaaff..
Maybe if its within 10 miles of hereford.. but anywhere else and your stuffed..
Your having a laaaff..
Maybe if its within 10 miles of hereford.. but anywhere else and your stuffed..
By simply looking at a map, I think you'll find that Hereford is the ideal location to deploy to anywhere in England and Wales from
But why would you need it when you have a chopper to do the spotting (it's job) the ARV boys to do the job. All available 24/7. But only if the government have not moved them miles away to save money.
Anyway;
public domain
The job of the police would be to contain such a situation while the job of the SAS (Special Air Service), if called upon, would be to resolve it.
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Of all the digs we have had at NPAS, this has to be the lamest.
....if we had a similar incident on lets say Brownsea Island, (one of, if not the most intensely used camping facilities by the youth of this country), surely the NPAS plan of putting a police helicopter at Bournemouth is a good one !
"surely the NPAS plan of putting a police helicopter at Bournemouth is a good one" !
Apart from the landing fees, operating charges and the cost of fuel...............
Apart from the landing fees, operating charges and the cost of fuel...............
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"surely the NPAS plan of putting a police helicopter at Bournemouth is a good one" !
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Without giving too much away, and as already mentioned by others, this scenario has been looked at for some time already. The end game being to move (a none disclosable number) more than two armed officers to a location by air. And I can assure you the drills completed by those involved took A LOT less than hour to get airborne. !!
What is the transit time from Hereford to say hmmmm the northwest ??
That's a long time if people are dying !
As mentioned before, hats off to the boys down Hereford, they're very good at what they do. But they'll never be in the right place to get to a scene quick enough in this scenario.
Although.... That sort of fits in with the npas ethos perfectly.! ie fewer a/c and always turning up late !!
What is the transit time from Hereford to say hmmmm the northwest ??
That's a long time if people are dying !
As mentioned before, hats off to the boys down Hereford, they're very good at what they do. But they'll never be in the right place to get to a scene quick enough in this scenario.
Although.... That sort of fits in with the npas ethos perfectly.! ie fewer a/c and always turning up late !!
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Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins
UK media reporting has been, well, a bit iffy on the subject
The Norwegian Police helo (singular....), EC-135 is only equipped for surveilance type jobs, and has no tactical transport capability. Its crew are NOT trained to do tactical insertions of the Police National Response troop.
The helo was not stuck "down south", it was stood down for summer holiday (
) for a limited time to preserve actual on duty time for the rest of the year. Crews recalled from leave had the helo stationed at ENGM airborne within 2 hrs. Police made a comment that the helo transport for the Police National Response troop was some way to the south. That is correct. That is the Bell 412s of the RNoAF 720 Sqn and to a lesser degree, the SAR helo of the 330 Sqn detatchment, both at Rygge/ENRY about 40nm south of Oslo.
720 Sqn are the ones that are supposed to fly both the Police and/or the Army SF folks.
15:30 Friday afternoon...........