UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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Seems that a few anti-NPAS'ers here tried a cheap shot and ended up with egg on their face.
Don't let facts get in the way of a good dig
Don't let facts get in the way of a good dig
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EC-135 is only equipped for surveilance type jobs, and has no tactical transport capability.
Just seems to illustrate the issues that could appear in the future, based on cost savings.
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In my previous life, I remember when we had a gazelle to trial the Air Support unit. it was viewed with suspicion as it meant the boat section (for a coastal force with several marinas) and the mounted section (south downs to patrol) were scrapped. The Bolkow arrived and had the Flir and other Kit and this was then replaced by the MD902 (I think that was the type) with all sorts of clever toys. It soon became a very important weapon in the Police armoury. As well as its surveillance duties, it carried a paramedic and was anywhere in the county in a very short time. PAS operated the aircraft and they positioned fuel strategically so if it got busy it did not have to keep returning to base.
It proved itself in searching for vulnerable people, delivering a paramedic quickly to any medical emergency particularly in the back of beyond and was invaluable in immediate crime scene containment and carried out several counter terrorism activities.
We all know they are expensive to run but I can not help thinking that reducing the number is going to increase risk public and police alike. The problem i have is that if you asked me what i would cut instead in the service, the answer is I do not know. Sadly, removing a few aircraft does produce a headline saving but, it does not tell the true, complete story IMHO.
It proved itself in searching for vulnerable people, delivering a paramedic quickly to any medical emergency particularly in the back of beyond and was invaluable in immediate crime scene containment and carried out several counter terrorism activities.
We all know they are expensive to run but I can not help thinking that reducing the number is going to increase risk public and police alike. The problem i have is that if you asked me what i would cut instead in the service, the answer is I do not know. Sadly, removing a few aircraft does produce a headline saving but, it does not tell the true, complete story IMHO.
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Poltergeist's post mentions PAS and the early days.
I noticed that the company has changed hands again, something about it being sold to the previous owners brother on Helihub?
Was it for a pound, or just a name change on the books for tax or some other reason?
The SAS director quoted in the Helihub article, didnt want to confirm if the owner's bother had infact become the new owner. Is it true and why was it such a secret?
I noticed that the company has changed hands again, something about it being sold to the previous owners brother on Helihub?
Was it for a pound, or just a name change on the books for tax or some other reason?
The SAS director quoted in the Helihub article, didnt want to confirm if the owner's bother had infact become the new owner. Is it true and why was it such a secret?
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I have been reading this topic with great interest and feel I should bring the important subject of Police Helicopter Budgets back to the front.
Art of Flight mentioned that the thinking was each remaining unit would fly 1700 hours a year, how many of these hours are on the all important tasks and how many are purely wasted on transits? Also who is paying for the transits?
Example, Liverpool or South Yorkshire, gone or down to go, get a job, (I use these as examples as I live and work in the areas covered by the aircraft involved). The closest aircraft is sent, calculated by lines on a map and realistic transit speeds and times, not NPAS delusionary ones, put the aircraft on task in about 20 mins. Whose budget/allowance does that come from, the force the aircraft came from? Or the force who wanted it? Also whilst the aircraft is transiting remember no one is getting any air support!!
Final Flare touched on a point, if this is to be a new single National Service then surly with the costs of pilots, engineering etc this would have to go to European tender and under the guise of saving money the cheapest would get it. (See a nice sideline in English language courses for whom ever gets the job).
Direct employed pilots are the responsibility of there current employer, correct? And therefore if they had to be made redundant not TUPE'd over how would this be done, and where would the money come from for payments, compensation etc, would this also be down to them?
If this is true then surly the contracts signed for contracted pilots and engineering may also not be safe as they are also the responsibility of the current police force not NPAS, and therefore when NPAS take over, the possible paying out and cancelling of these contract falls to the current forces also.
This could work out to be a very expensive exercise indeed.
To quote Final Flare again, excuse me if I am also being naïve and all of my comments are purely conjecture, but as someone living and working in the UK I truly fear the outcome of the country due not only Air Support cutbacks but police cutbacks on the whole.
Art of Flight mentioned that the thinking was each remaining unit would fly 1700 hours a year, how many of these hours are on the all important tasks and how many are purely wasted on transits? Also who is paying for the transits?
Example, Liverpool or South Yorkshire, gone or down to go, get a job, (I use these as examples as I live and work in the areas covered by the aircraft involved). The closest aircraft is sent, calculated by lines on a map and realistic transit speeds and times, not NPAS delusionary ones, put the aircraft on task in about 20 mins. Whose budget/allowance does that come from, the force the aircraft came from? Or the force who wanted it? Also whilst the aircraft is transiting remember no one is getting any air support!!
Final Flare touched on a point, if this is to be a new single National Service then surly with the costs of pilots, engineering etc this would have to go to European tender and under the guise of saving money the cheapest would get it. (See a nice sideline in English language courses for whom ever gets the job).
Direct employed pilots are the responsibility of there current employer, correct? And therefore if they had to be made redundant not TUPE'd over how would this be done, and where would the money come from for payments, compensation etc, would this also be down to them?
If this is true then surly the contracts signed for contracted pilots and engineering may also not be safe as they are also the responsibility of the current police force not NPAS, and therefore when NPAS take over, the possible paying out and cancelling of these contract falls to the current forces also.
This could work out to be a very expensive exercise indeed.
To quote Final Flare again, excuse me if I am also being naïve and all of my comments are purely conjecture, but as someone living and working in the UK I truly fear the outcome of the country due not only Air Support cutbacks but police cutbacks on the whole.
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silsoesid wrote:
I see no egg..?
Its a simple fact that in a norway/cumbria/mumbai style attack, my unit and all the ones in my region will get armed officers on scene well within one hour.? its well rehearsed scenario in our region. I take it your unit dont train for it.?
You cant cut numbers of a/c and keep operational effectiveness at the same level. Thats simple maths.!
anyone in favour of npas is either:
not in a unit for the chop and hoping they wont have to apply for their own job (with fingers very tightly crossed)
Outside of police aviation and therefore not in possession of any actual facts.
A politician.
Alex Marshal.
A subordinate of Alex Marshal looking for promotion.
An idiot.
Seems that a few anti-NPAS'ers here tried a cheap shot and ended up with egg on their face.
Don't let facts get in the way of a good dig
Don't let facts get in the way of a good dig
Its a simple fact that in a norway/cumbria/mumbai style attack, my unit and all the ones in my region will get armed officers on scene well within one hour.? its well rehearsed scenario in our region. I take it your unit dont train for it.?
You cant cut numbers of a/c and keep operational effectiveness at the same level. Thats simple maths.!
anyone in favour of npas is either:
not in a unit for the chop and hoping they wont have to apply for their own job (with fingers very tightly crossed)
Outside of police aviation and therefore not in possession of any actual facts.
A politician.
Alex Marshal.
A subordinate of Alex Marshal looking for promotion.
An idiot.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I see no egg..?
The police helicopter was stuck in the south of the area. Was this a massive hinderance to the police not getting on the island for 90 mins.
Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker.
Does this whole NPAS smack of a similar situation if your air asset is miles away on a box ticker.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Its a simple fact that in a norway/cumbria/mumbai style attack, my unit and all the ones in my region will get armed officers on scene well within one hour.? its well rehearsed scenario in our region. I take it your unit dont train for it.?
At a guess
in a unit that is fairly busy on all sorts of different tasking in both the urban and rural environments, if something was to happen round NOW, apart from dumping the 2 observers and emptying the ac of excess baggage in order to be within weight/CoG limits they might still have to lose a fair amount of fuel, especially in this heat, in order to fulfil the task. Despite possibly having a huge clear area to take off at high AUM.Then of course there is the PAOM to look at.
After all, there is a whole load we can do under the heading 'Special Operations', but not without opening up a whole packet of sliced Emmental !
Me.?... I'd like an observer with me to not only to keep an eye on the pax, sort out the headsets/doors/landing site/extra eyes etc...but to tell me when the horns are beginning to sprout through my helmet
And then throw in the night !!!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
You cant cut numbers of a/c and keep operational effectiveness at the same level. Thats simple maths.!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
anyone in favour of npas is either:
not in a unit for the chop and hoping they wont have to apply for their own job (with fingers very tightly crossed)
Outside of police aviation and therefore not in possession of any actual facts.
A politician.
Alex Marshal.
A subordinate of Alex Marshal looking for promotion.
An idiot.
not in a unit for the chop and hoping they wont have to apply for their own job (with fingers very tightly crossed)
Outside of police aviation and therefore not in possession of any actual facts.
A politician.
Alex Marshal.
A subordinate of Alex Marshal looking for promotion.
An idiot.
1. No cr@p Columbo!..Turkeys, Christmas and voting come to mind !
2. See 6.
3/4/5.
6. There must be a lot of idiots around in Police Aviation then!
When I came into this business in 2003 (sprog!) the buzz words were already regionalisation & nationalisation and they weren't new concepts. Look at the amount of research, reports and papers written about it all even back then as well as now. It is my opinion that most people in or out of the business would agree that a national police aviation service and its concept is a good thing all round, even if it was to simply be regional units under one big umbrella.
Unfortunately nobody likes change, so there was always going to be a resistance from the start, however a lot more could have been done before the announcements were made last October.
Secrecy and the lack of passage of information has blackened 'NPAS' as a name.
Saving money is no doubt the driving force in all this, under the guise of an increased efficiency at the same time, which would never work. A good example of this is that with 7 months to NPAS we do not even know the host force, who is paying for it all, what will happen to all the assets , HR, contracts, fixed wing ac or even which forces are still prepared to pay more for a seemingly lesser service.
NPAS is the future !
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no one is against change..
change needs to happen, but in the appropriate places..
Units that are backwards in their operating principles, sat on their arses waiting for the phone to ring, going days without flying a task... that needs to change..
Extortionate charges for pilotage, engineering and parts... that needs to change
Piecemeal procurement of a/c.. that needs to change.
Poor communication between units and a/c.. that needs to change.
reducing the number of a/c in busy municipal areas with high crime.. is just simple cost cutting.!
I take it the met are still refusing to play..? for good reason.!
change needs to happen, but in the appropriate places..
Units that are backwards in their operating principles, sat on their arses waiting for the phone to ring, going days without flying a task... that needs to change..
Extortionate charges for pilotage, engineering and parts... that needs to change
Piecemeal procurement of a/c.. that needs to change.
Poor communication between units and a/c.. that needs to change.
reducing the number of a/c in busy municipal areas with high crime.. is just simple cost cutting.!
I take it the met are still refusing to play..? for good reason.!
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Met refusing to play!
Morris, who says the Met are refusing to play? and whats their reason? Last I knew they were joining NPAS later due to reasons of their own.
SS great posts and a good argument well made, I salute you. Can't see those urgent jobs getting done with no Observer on board, certainly not where I hail from anyway.
SS great posts and a good argument well made, I salute you. Can't see those urgent jobs getting done with no Observer on board, certainly not where I hail from anyway.
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Clear as mud?
With all the changes regarding NPAS and the likely change of operators and contracts from 1st April, I noticed a new part to the SAS-PAS-MAS "all change at the top" story on Helihub.
Could this be anything to do pilots contracts and redundancy payments with a new owner, even if it is the brother of the previous owner from Holland?
UK: Specialist Aviation Services adds two directors | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Could this be anything to do pilots contracts and redundancy payments with a new owner, even if it is the brother of the previous owner from Holland?
UK: Specialist Aviation Services adds two directors | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
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SilsoeSid, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you are spouting about things that you obviously dont understand. Maybe you're just stirring because you like an argument but to those directly involved who are at risk of losing their jobs, this is quite a sensitive subject. Your uninformed comments aren't appreciated by many(Wagging Finger is obviously another who has no direct involvement and doesn't understand)
By your comments you are obviously not in police aviation(unless you are calling youself an idiot) and your comments are mostly guess work as you stated in post 1730
And most of your guessing is wrong.
Nobody's talking about doing 'ugent jobs' without an observer on board, just a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers, after which the pilot would RTB to collect the observers. Also it is unlikely that a fully kitted firearms officer is going to sit in the front left seat as they cannot enter and exit quickly enough, so unless the heli is near it's max weight, the front observer can stay aboard. Chances are pretty good that the aircraft will already be flying when it becomes apparent that there is a need for firearms involvement so the aircraft wont be fully fueled.
No!
If you reduce the number of aircraft there WILL be a reduction in service somewhere. End of!
By your comments you are obviously not in police aviation(unless you are calling youself an idiot) and your comments are mostly guess work as you stated in post 1730
At a guess
Nobody's talking about doing 'ugent jobs' without an observer on board, just a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers, after which the pilot would RTB to collect the observers. Also it is unlikely that a fully kitted firearms officer is going to sit in the front left seat as they cannot enter and exit quickly enough, so unless the heli is near it's max weight, the front observer can stay aboard. Chances are pretty good that the aircraft will already be flying when it becomes apparent that there is a need for firearms involvement so the aircraft wont be fully fueled.
Doesn't that totally depend on both where the a/c are based and what type of tasking is being performed?
If you reduce the number of aircraft there WILL be a reduction in service somewhere. End of!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Nobody's talking about doing 'ugent jobs' without an observer on board, just a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers, after which the pilot would RTB to collect the observers.
Is that a short transit flight from A-B to drop off the firearms officers and then go back to pick up the observers that you already had on board because we aren't talking about flying without observers?
your comments are mostly guess work as you stated in post 1730
in a unit that is fairly busy on all sorts of different tasking.... "And thats even before we get onto the loading issues you've brought up !
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
No!
If you reduce the number of aircraft there WILL be a reduction in service somewhere. End of!
If you reduce the number of aircraft there WILL be a reduction in service somewhere. End of!
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And thats even before we get onto the loading issues you've brought up !
( I guess ) they'll be able to carry the 4 Firearms Officers, all their kit and Observers no problem
Shame that the limited number of 902's is also being cut under NPAS
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Also it is unlikely that a fully kitted firearms officer is going to sit in the front left seat as they cannot enter and exit quickly enough,
Chances are pretty good that the aircraft will already be flying when it becomes apparent that there is a need for firearms involvement so the aircraft wont be fully fueled.
so unless the heli is near it's max weight, the front observer can stay aboard.
Remind me, what was it you said about me?
"You are spouting about things that you obviously dont understand.
Your uninformed comments
No direct involvement and doesn't understand
By your comments you are obviously not in police aviation
Your comments are mostly guess work"
Hello Pot this is Kettle, Over !