UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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A few questions for the folks up in the North (West) :
Is anyone able to advise the process for the humble Bobby on the Ground to request Air Support now ?
Throughout the Northern Region, but particularly in Merseyside ( who have lost their aircraft ) - how did deployment work before - were they called directly by whoever needed it ?
The press report states :
"Co-ordinated" ??
Is anyone able to advise the process for the humble Bobby on the Ground to request Air Support now ?
Throughout the Northern Region, but particularly in Merseyside ( who have lost their aircraft ) - how did deployment work before - were they called directly by whoever needed it ?
The press report states :
All operations will be coordinated by the newly-created North West Air Operations Group based at the Highways Agency’s north west regional control centre in Newton-le-Willows.
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A very rare post from me... but I think Final Flare is spot on, Our ASU is earmarked to stay but all the same - my house went on the market last week in anticipation. Better to rent over the next year or two I suspect. 
Last edited by Letsby Avenue; 19th Jul 2011 at 23:09.
I am no expert in employment law but it would seem sensible for each of those operations closing down to make their own people redundant [or to 'facilitate' them leaving of their own accord] before NPAS come on board simply to avoid the clash of employment law. This would seem to mainly effect directly employed pilots as the bobbies can simply be put back on the street and the contract pilots go back where they came from.
Problems may arise after next April but I guess that Hampshire and Merseyside staff will not be included...... and others [Cambridgeshire etc] may be 'sorted' by their current forces by then.
So.... in theory a small problem for NPAS?
Problems may arise after next April but I guess that Hampshire and Merseyside staff will not be included...... and others [Cambridgeshire etc] may be 'sorted' by their current forces by then.
So.... in theory a small problem for NPAS?
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From what have been told, the bobbies are "safe" since they just get reassigned to Dog/Firearms/Controlroom/Panda Duty, but the pilot's who are employed by a private company are simply put on notice. The interesting bit is what will happen to the direct employed pilots? After all they can not simply be reassigned. Not to mention CRM. I really feel for the Cambridgehire lot they had this damocles sword hanging over them for several years now yet they still soldier on.
I believe the Merseyside pilots have successfully found new births at neighbouring units but not without some serious heartache = stress yet they again stayed professional but what a CRM cluster ****
I believe the Merseyside pilots have successfully found new births at neighbouring units but not without some serious heartache = stress yet they again stayed professional but what a CRM cluster ****
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I believe the Merseyside pilots have successfully found new births at neighbouring units but not without some serious heartache = stress yet they again stayed professional but what a CRM cluster ****
Wasn't this only possible though because the company they were employed by was, thankfully, able to redeploy them? If the spaces weren't there, they would have been made redundant. If they were directly employed they simply would have been made redundant as the job in the force doesn't exist anymore and would have been in the pile along with the other hopefuls applying for any of the vacancies they have now filled.
Are there any units due for closure that directly employ? Are NPAS telling any forces to make redundant any of their employees?
With contracted pilots, NPAS can simply handle units as they please. Closing down/moving units is simplified by the contracting company adjusting to the NPAS requirement, hiring and firing, starting stopping contracts as required. Bobbies having to put up with a unit move or closure by perhaps travelling further to work or by making a change of direction in their career. NPAS gives the force more bobbies to use and the pilots are not their concern.
With directly employed pilots, NPAS will simply handle units as they please. Bobbies having to put up with a unit move or closure by perhaps travelling further to work or by making a change of direction in their career. NPAS gives the force more bobbies to use, possibly look at making 'acceptable' changes to pilots contracts or ultimately making them redundant which co$ts money, which is what NPAS is supposed to be saving. But you've got to spend to save haven't you!
Is there a simple way of geting directly employed pilots to work for a contract company !!
Of course with less than 255 days, 13 hours, 40 minutes, 43 seconds to go, most of the pilot issues have all been sorted....haven't they !
Countdown to Apr 1, 2012 12:00:01 AM in UTC
This rationalisation process will take a lot of the interest out of the UK police market for industry. It will impact on silly places like Helitech or other shows....
At the moment with 30 or so target customers 'they' have the chance of getting a share of the spoils, now it will be all or nothing. OK ECS has pretty much got downlinks sewn up but that chink in the armour represented by the Mets insistence on being different was good [if futile] competition for ECS and for the rest of the many downlink manufacturers even though they were ultimately never to get in the door ...... take away competition on the supply of flight suits, leather jackets, boots, helmets, gloves, fuel... and there is a danger that the number of potential future competitive sections of industry will wither and die in the smallish UK market place.
Yes there will be winners and they will do well over even the reduced 23 aircraft fleet [23 times any item is good money] but take that process five or ten years down the road and the present supplier product/support goes downhill and where are your alternatives? Bust to a man so by then you may end up getting your alternatives from outside the UK.
Ultimately there are not so hidden dangers in single sourcing.
At the moment with 30 or so target customers 'they' have the chance of getting a share of the spoils, now it will be all or nothing. OK ECS has pretty much got downlinks sewn up but that chink in the armour represented by the Mets insistence on being different was good [if futile] competition for ECS and for the rest of the many downlink manufacturers even though they were ultimately never to get in the door ...... take away competition on the supply of flight suits, leather jackets, boots, helmets, gloves, fuel... and there is a danger that the number of potential future competitive sections of industry will wither and die in the smallish UK market place.
Yes there will be winners and they will do well over even the reduced 23 aircraft fleet [23 times any item is good money] but take that process five or ten years down the road and the present supplier product/support goes downhill and where are your alternatives? Bust to a man so by then you may end up getting your alternatives from outside the UK.
Ultimately there are not so hidden dangers in single sourcing.
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Silsoe Quote "directly employed they simply would have been made redundant as the job in the force doesn't exist anymore and would have been in the pile along with the other hopefuls applying for any of the vacancies they have now filled."
I believe Public sector workers come under slightly different rules re TUPE but the principles are the same. If that new NPAS or other Force aircraft is over your area doing the same job you used to do, surely you are entitled to that position with the new supplier under the "Service Provision Change" rule?
I believe Public sector workers come under slightly different rules re TUPE but the principles are the same. If that new NPAS or other Force aircraft is over your area doing the same job you used to do, surely you are entitled to that position with the new supplier under the "Service Provision Change" rule?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
If that new NPAS or other Force aircraft is over your area doing the same job you used to do, surely you are entitled to that position with the new supplier under the "Service Provision Change" rule?
Really!
1. Could NPAS force a particular Constabulary to employ a particular pilot.
2. Which unit would be chosen to take them on? (The one they live closest to?)
3. Could NPAS force a private company to employ one or more individuals?
4. Don't public sector jobs have to be advertised?
5. What legal position would that put someone 'from the outside' hoping to get 'that job', assuming there was a vacancy?
I'd like to think that since last October, a lot of this has been discussed!
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Yes, NPAS or the lead force that is mentioned earlier on would become the new service provider.
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/246/contents/made
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/246/contents/made
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What the NPAS scheme involves is reducing the number of aircraft and the number of pilots required to fly them, as a matter of policy. I don't think that TUPE prevents people being made redundant when "the demands of the service" "require" a reduced service and fewer employees.
Sadly it seems to me that some pilots currently employed as police pilots will inevitably end up losing their jobs. Which pilots is another question. I don't see any persuasive argument for direct-employed pilots being in a different position from contractor-employed. NPAS seem to have said little, but if a national organisation is to run air support the individual police forces will no longer be providing the service themselves. So those pilots employed by the police force and the contractor company are essentially in the same position, aren't they? Their employer is no longer providing air support.
[The same probably is not true of sub-30 year police officers because they are not normal employees (in an employment sense)].
Sadly it seems to me that some pilots currently employed as police pilots will inevitably end up losing their jobs. Which pilots is another question. I don't see any persuasive argument for direct-employed pilots being in a different position from contractor-employed. NPAS seem to have said little, but if a national organisation is to run air support the individual police forces will no longer be providing the service themselves. So those pilots employed by the police force and the contractor company are essentially in the same position, aren't they? Their employer is no longer providing air support.
[The same probably is not true of sub-30 year police officers because they are not normal employees (in an employment sense)].
And locked up 7 on our last operational duty!
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OK, so if the Merseyside ASU Pilots were directly employed, are you saying that the contracting company and other directly employed units that now cover their area would be forced to take on one or more of their pilots !
Police pilots are employed by either a contracting company or directly employed by a force, with a few freelancers. In this example the pilots would be made redundant by Merseyside and your saying would have to be employed by another force or company.
Are you still suggesting that in this example, NPAS are able to go to N.Wales, GMP, Cheshire and Lancs and say "among yourselves, employ Capt.'s W, X, Y & Z" ?
What is the NPAS plan regarding pilot employment?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
So those pilots employed by the police force and the contractor company are essentially in the same position, aren't they? Their employer is no longer providing air support.
Once NPAS employ the pilots directly, the situation stabilises itself and we find ourselves in the contract scenario, albeit directly employed. Then, when a unit disappears, NPAS has the ability to redeploy the pilotage as it is still supplying air support elsewhere.
Unfortunately the bottom line of all this is, as Helinut says;
"Sadly it seems to me that some pilots currently employed as police pilots will inevitably end up losing their jobs."
A cynic that I once knew said a while ago that NPAS was only set up to save the jobs of those going at NPIA.
At least every cloud has a silver lining ... for some!
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Nobody really knows
If that new NPAS or other Force aircraft is over your area doing the same job you used to do, surely you are entitled to that position with the new supplier under the "Service Provision Change" rule? as quoted by lokon.
Again I am not too sure, but I believe that if you are directly employed and the above happens and you are not offered that position then you are fully entitled to claim under "constructive dismissal" grounds. Therefore costing NPAS even more money.
Also the main word we should be concentrating on is "National". As it is a "National" organisation, not regional and definately not force by force, then a full EU Tender process should be adhered to. For all aspects, being it, Engineering, procurement or pilotage. Just to reiterate, thats EU, not national tendering.
I urge everyone, be they directly employed, contracted or whatever to be prepared. There will be people who are going to be very upset and when the full legalities come out, nobody's job, and I stress NOBODY's job will be safe.
Again I am not too sure, but I believe that if you are directly employed and the above happens and you are not offered that position then you are fully entitled to claim under "constructive dismissal" grounds. Therefore costing NPAS even more money.
Also the main word we should be concentrating on is "National". As it is a "National" organisation, not regional and definately not force by force, then a full EU Tender process should be adhered to. For all aspects, being it, Engineering, procurement or pilotage. Just to reiterate, thats EU, not national tendering.
I urge everyone, be they directly employed, contracted or whatever to be prepared. There will be people who are going to be very upset and when the full legalities come out, nobody's job, and I stress NOBODY's job will be safe.
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Who Knows ?
I think Final Flare has hit the nail on the head. Until NPIA/NPAS have a formal HR Organisation who undertake to answer these questions everyone should realise that we know nothing about future employment within NPAS.
Mal
Mal
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Helinut, you are of course right, but surely some will go through natural wastage and if a number of bases go to 20 or 24H more pilots will be required to fulfil the FTL requirements.