UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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Suffice to say, that when questioned about effectiveness, the NPAS management will spout the usual USELESS political tripe that the police always use..
What they WILL say:
Amount of money saved, by the most expensive "old" ASU compared to paying NPAS for Air Support.
How many a/c available
Percent availability
Number of incidents "attended"
Number of hours flown
Which constabularies benefited from increased air support
How many football matches / Large public events attended
What they WONT say:
Amount of money "saved" by the more efficient ASUs ie directly employed pilots and/or engineers.
Percentage split of constabularies taking air support
Number of times a/c successfully deployed to a pursuit (ie arrived whilst in progress).
Number of times deployed to incident request by beat officers.
Number of times request for deployment declined, and why.
Number of prisoners detained as a direct result of the a/c attendance.
Number of missing persons found,as a precentage of deployments to them.
Number of incidents "attended" whereby the a/c didnt actualy arrive..!
Lets face it the data they used so far to justify the whole thing has been made of chocolate, so the future should hold no surprises.
"lies, damn lies, and statistics"
What they WILL say:
Amount of money saved, by the most expensive "old" ASU compared to paying NPAS for Air Support.
How many a/c available
Percent availability
Number of incidents "attended"
Number of hours flown
Which constabularies benefited from increased air support
How many football matches / Large public events attended
What they WONT say:
Amount of money "saved" by the more efficient ASUs ie directly employed pilots and/or engineers.
Percentage split of constabularies taking air support
Number of times a/c successfully deployed to a pursuit (ie arrived whilst in progress).
Number of times deployed to incident request by beat officers.
Number of times request for deployment declined, and why.
Number of prisoners detained as a direct result of the a/c attendance.
Number of missing persons found,as a precentage of deployments to them.
Number of incidents "attended" whereby the a/c didnt actualy arrive..!
Lets face it the data they used so far to justify the whole thing has been made of chocolate, so the future should hold no surprises.
"lies, damn lies, and statistics"
Last edited by morris1; 29th Oct 2010 at 12:21.
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Forgive my intrusion in to this thread but for those of you, like me, following this thread & also the SAR-H one, there seems an awful lot of similarities.
At a time when national SAR helo coverage is about to go through a massive overhaul & potentially see a PFI run the show - with a need to make a profit -it is interesting that comments on here along the lines of less aircraft attempting to do the same job ring true across both disciplines.
How many times recently have SAR & police helos worked alonside each other - certainly doing the S bit of SAR, particularly as they are now also fitted with airwave - I just wonder whether there are certain senior management types on both sides with their heads in the sand thinking it will be ok as we can rely on the other emergency helos to help us out - not realising that they potentially will be just as badly off!
Or maybe the master plan is to also bring the new SAR helos into this NPAS master plan & then tell the public the UK has got more police/SAR helos than ever before....arent we lucky!
At a time when national SAR helo coverage is about to go through a massive overhaul & potentially see a PFI run the show - with a need to make a profit -it is interesting that comments on here along the lines of less aircraft attempting to do the same job ring true across both disciplines.
How many times recently have SAR & police helos worked alonside each other - certainly doing the S bit of SAR, particularly as they are now also fitted with airwave - I just wonder whether there are certain senior management types on both sides with their heads in the sand thinking it will be ok as we can rely on the other emergency helos to help us out - not realising that they potentially will be just as badly off!
Or maybe the master plan is to also bring the new SAR helos into this NPAS master plan & then tell the public the UK has got more police/SAR helos than ever before....arent we lucky!
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Micks's posts on the previous page just about sum it up....
Everyone knows it's a step back in time and a much reduced capability . If only the bosses (Sir Hugh et al) didn't have the gall to sell it as an "enhanced service". Trouble is, those units unaffected are pulling up the ladder, the rest left adrift. It was plain to see people feathering their nests last week, deciding which aircraft type was going to prevail, where the engineering could be done etc. If we spoke with one voice we might be better placed, but no, human nature prevails. In any case it was us UEOs/DUEOs that chose to support a National plan, albeit with good intentions, but it's been hijacked and can only be considered a massive own goal.
I feel very sorry for the people who are going to be made redundant. There are two winners, the organised criminal who now knows not only will a pursuit be stopped if he drives recklessly enough but also that there'll be no useful air support nearby, and the bosses with a nice shiny entry on their CV.
Everyone knows it's a step back in time and a much reduced capability . If only the bosses (Sir Hugh et al) didn't have the gall to sell it as an "enhanced service". Trouble is, those units unaffected are pulling up the ladder, the rest left adrift. It was plain to see people feathering their nests last week, deciding which aircraft type was going to prevail, where the engineering could be done etc. If we spoke with one voice we might be better placed, but no, human nature prevails. In any case it was us UEOs/DUEOs that chose to support a National plan, albeit with good intentions, but it's been hijacked and can only be considered a massive own goal.
I feel very sorry for the people who are going to be made redundant. There are two winners, the organised criminal who now knows not only will a pursuit be stopped if he drives recklessly enough but also that there'll be no useful air support nearby, and the bosses with a nice shiny entry on their CV.
Taxi!
What is the cost of setting up the National Police Air Operations Control Room ?
Failings of a state wide central command of forces has been detailed in Victoria's Royal Commission into Feb 7th bushfires.
In general the new thinking is for autonomous local decision making rather than centralised control.
I accept that there is a big difference in scale between dispatching 50,000 volunteer firefighters with 3000 vehicles, and control of 25 choppers!
But the principle remains the same. Network rather than hierarchical management enabling autonomy of local crews is a far more effective approach to respond to rapidly developing local incidents.
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Lava-exactly, there isn't an awful lot of useful information just a lot of unanswered questions. I doubt much more will be forthcoming ....until the empire building phase is complete
How many times has Liverpool's aircraft been targeted by the criminal fraternity? .. when all they had to do was wait ,and the Police will remove it for them ...nice 
How many times has Liverpool's aircraft been targeted by the criminal fraternity? .. when all they had to do was wait ,and the Police will remove it for them ...nice
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It was plain to see people feathering their nests last week, deciding which aircraft type was going to prevail, where the engineering could be done etc.
Surely a legal case would ensue if mere geography cost you your livelyhood.?
Or are they going to start with a clean slate and table full of CVs from everyone.?
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Or are they going to start with a clean slate and table full of CVs from everyone.?
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I am new here, but have been following this with interest. I think the whole world is having to adjust the way things are done, over here in the US it is probably worse than in the UK. I think those that are left in employment should feel relieved and the companies that let people go should do it with sensitivity. This is where we are.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Having attended the symposium I can tell you that we were told that pilots would have to apply for a position in NPAS, and it would be open to anyone with suitable experience. What we weren't told however was whether or not we would be directly employed by NPAS or by a sub-contractor. It was also put to us that direct or outsourced employment might vary from region to region.
What will be interesting is when some forces are told they would have to make their pilots redundant and consequently give them a redundancy payment, only to find the same faces doing the same job, in the same base, covering the same area, with the same aircraft and probably the same observers!
Another few 10's of thousands of pounds spent in the name of savings!
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civvy observers
To be honest i fully expect the whole thing to civilianised.
There will be no actual "police work" being done anyway, so its pointless employing cops to crew the a/c.
Any old pleb with zero policing experience can wave the camera around looking for mispers and filming crowds at football matches. In fact they may as well advertise for staff from film companies to fill the posts.
I may have a bash once im retired, but in the mean time Ill go back to catching crims the old fashioned way. (and hope I dont need an a/c at any point.!)
There will be no actual "police work" being done anyway, so its pointless employing cops to crew the a/c.
Any old pleb with zero policing experience can wave the camera around looking for mispers and filming crowds at football matches. In fact they may as well advertise for staff from film companies to fill the posts.
I may have a bash once im retired, but in the mean time Ill go back to catching crims the old fashioned way. (and hope I dont need an a/c at any point.!)
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No one has once mentioned the force multiplier the police helicopter represents. Yes it costs serious money to operate but it saves even more money by supporting the bobbies on the street. If it wasn't for the helicopter you wouldn't have any bobbies in the street because they would all be down the local park/ sportsfield / fields looking for the missing old person/ young child/ suicidal/ sick person spending hours searching, you wouldn't have time for much else. How do you expect to follow a criminal round town/ village on foot or by car when you can't see over the fence/ wall especially nowadays when you no longer can rely on the public ringing in because they no longer spend any time in front of the kitchen sink looking out the window thanks to the dishwasher nor much time is spent in the garden since they are too busy running around trying to keep on top of their lives?
Do you know how much a death or an injury costs???? Offshore a death cost around £1.000.000 and I seem to remember on land the cost isn't far short of that. Google will tell you.
Now more than ever we need more rather than less helicopters.
I once had been told, only 4 years ago Merseyside would fly their tanks empty because they knew a helicopter overhead made for a safer town but because you can not actually put figures to this common sense .....
One last point if I may, I have also been told that it would cost several million pounds for NPAS to buy all those PBH contracts for all those new aircraft currently in the fleet coupled with the handful of new bases at £1.000.000 each I can't see any saving myself on the contrary.......
But some of you keep saying one should wake up and smell the coffee and understand change is coming and accept it. I am happy to accept change if it is for the better not for the worse.
Do you know how much a death or an injury costs???? Offshore a death cost around £1.000.000 and I seem to remember on land the cost isn't far short of that. Google will tell you.
Now more than ever we need more rather than less helicopters.
I once had been told, only 4 years ago Merseyside would fly their tanks empty because they knew a helicopter overhead made for a safer town but because you can not actually put figures to this common sense .....
One last point if I may, I have also been told that it would cost several million pounds for NPAS to buy all those PBH contracts for all those new aircraft currently in the fleet coupled with the handful of new bases at £1.000.000 each I can't see any saving myself on the contrary.......
But some of you keep saying one should wake up and smell the coffee and understand change is coming and accept it. I am happy to accept change if it is for the better not for the worse.
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Fly for fun has hit the nail right in the head. But I don't think he means it.
The problem is the assumptions that are being made. You guys are complaining about what you think might be happening instead of waiting to hear what the detailed plan is.
The problem is the assumptions that are being made. You guys are complaining about what you think might be happening instead of waiting to hear what the detailed plan is.
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I agree with FFF, for a change. I like the idea of a national umbrella for Air Support. I for one would prefer we had a national police force and not individual fiefdoms.
I do believe the original announcement on NPAS was the equivalent of a thrown hand grenade. To not expect the people at risk to worry, snipe and moan is daft. Just pleased there is a forum where we can let it all go!
This doesn't appear to be an assumption, but to be a lack of knowledge of the employment law. It is also inflammatory, almost to the point where someone may assume it was deliberately designed to fan the flames. Why would you announce that before doing your homework?
I do believe the original announcement on NPAS was the equivalent of a thrown hand grenade. To not expect the people at risk to worry, snipe and moan is daft. Just pleased there is a forum where we can let it all go!
pilots would have to apply for a position in NPAS, and it would be open to anyone with suitable experience
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Wait and see
yme, have you had any formal contact from the new Lords & Masters?
Have they sent details of the New World Order down the pipe to the coalface?
Perhaps they do not, as yet, have a fixed plan for what they are going to do, so they are not responsible for the panic by throwing a hand grenade.
They may well be responsible for some of it for not saying much, but they can't tell you what they don't know yet.
Have they sent details of the New World Order down the pipe to the coalface?
Perhaps they do not, as yet, have a fixed plan for what they are going to do, so they are not responsible for the panic by throwing a hand grenade.
They may well be responsible for some of it for not saying much, but they can't tell you what they don't know yet.
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Fly for fun has hit the nail right in the head. But I don't think he means it.
My take on it, from a sedentary position, is that like big business one needs to cover all the bases, so to speak, with enough resilience to get the job done and have a contingency for unforeseen events. This I think is what NPAS is about. How they have gone about trialling scenarios and working the options I don't know, but as YME says, they seem to have thrown a hand grenade and ran away with no answers to any of the options on offer, consequently rumour is rife and people seem to be very nervous. An example of this is to announce all sorts with regard the eastern area with the Met not being on board???? How does that work with 4 aircraft for that region and in the middle is a relativley small area served by a further 3 aircraft restricted by the M25 as a barrier. This is my point when I said this:
It is the method and the assumptions that are being made that are the problem.
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I've been reading this thread for a while now as I do have a (slight) vested interest. One comment caught my eye:-
Without getting too far off the beaten track, I thought I'd lob this in:-
Under employment law (and I sit to be corrected here!) you cannot apply for a job/position you already hold just because the owner/operator has changed. This, to my mind, leaves 2 scenarios
1) If pilots have to apply for a position in NPAS, then it would have to be a generic position. i.e. not neccesarily where you are presently employed because of the statement above. If that is the case, would NPAS be liable for relocation costs etc, etc. If so, that would add again to real costings and subtract for the perceived savings. Better then to leave people in post surely. Which leads me on to
2) If you remain in post, you cannot apply for that position. However, as the 'operator' has changed, ALL pilots in post will come under TUPE (Transfer Under Previous Employment). Under TUPE, you MUST get the same, or better, terms and conditions than your last employer gave you. Can you imagine the legal costs of TUPE'ing all those pilots! The legal profession would think Christmas had come early. It would cost a fortune! So where (again!) are the savings?
There will be those who will disagree with me and thats OK
But we do have rights brothers (and sisters) 'cos it was the government that gave them to us.
Just a thought!
pilots would have to apply for a position in NPAS, and it would be open to anyone with suitable experience
Under employment law (and I sit to be corrected here!) you cannot apply for a job/position you already hold just because the owner/operator has changed. This, to my mind, leaves 2 scenarios
1) If pilots have to apply for a position in NPAS, then it would have to be a generic position. i.e. not neccesarily where you are presently employed because of the statement above. If that is the case, would NPAS be liable for relocation costs etc, etc. If so, that would add again to real costings and subtract for the perceived savings. Better then to leave people in post surely. Which leads me on to
2) If you remain in post, you cannot apply for that position. However, as the 'operator' has changed, ALL pilots in post will come under TUPE (Transfer Under Previous Employment). Under TUPE, you MUST get the same, or better, terms and conditions than your last employer gave you. Can you imagine the legal costs of TUPE'ing all those pilots! The legal profession would think Christmas had come early. It would cost a fortune! So where (again!) are the savings?
There will be those who will disagree with me and thats OK
But we do have rights brothers (and sisters) 'cos it was the government that gave them to us.Just a thought!
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Bobby I think you are right, pilots are either going to have to remain with their present employers, presumably having their terms and conditions brought up to a common standard throughout the NPAS organisation, or go through the expensive TUPE route, giving the same scenario as far as terms and conditions are concerned. Either way this, I feel, will be an expensive exercise. Perhaps another example of leaping before they looked?