UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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Morris - you make a very valid point in your post (#1752), that of HONESTY. It the NPAS team had come out with some honest admissions in the first place, change would be more willingly accomodated, I'm sure. As it is, everybody's been sold spin (read bo**ocks) that the new service will be more effective/efficient than the old one, when "those who do" all know that we're likely to be significantly less efffective, for a lot of the time. 
It's frustrating, but it's part of what most of us will be getting on with. There are still likely to be some sleepy hollows, but one would hope they're now waking up a bit to the realisation that some professional re-alignment may be needed to provide the best service to the bobbies on the ground.
Good luck everyone!
It's frustrating, but it's part of what most of us will be getting on with. There are still likely to be some sleepy hollows, but one would hope they're now waking up a bit to the realisation that some professional re-alignment may be needed to provide the best service to the bobbies on the ground.
Good luck everyone!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Morris hit it on the head with the post about honesty and of course that along with all the secrecy and lack of passage of information, has put everyones back up. Restricting themselves to only answering questions posed on POLKA and no initial papers turning up on that day in October on topics such as pilotage/manning, maintainance, procurement etc etc hasn't helped one iota. ('scuse the pun 
)
Zorab, I must disagree with your line of;
Here for example, we are certainly providing a more effective service, as are our colleagues in the region.
For example, the force border is literally over the fence. Before, we could not do a job in the local village or surrounding areas as they were off our force area. I can assure you that it doesn't feel right when you are stood at your base watching a different force helicopter do a job just over the road. With the new operating practise, we are now able to go on those jobs, meaning the previous ac doesn't have to transit the 25 miles to get here and we are able to now just literally pop over the fence and get it done quickly and efficiently.
Another problem highlighted here on this thread, is that although some are quite happy to announce that NPAS in their eyes know nothing about Police Aviation, we seem to be ignoring the fact that some of, "those that do", don't seem to know about how other units operate in different regions.
)Zorab, I must disagree with your line of;
...when "those who do" all know that we're likely to be significantly less efffective, for a lot of the time.
For example, the force border is literally over the fence. Before, we could not do a job in the local village or surrounding areas as they were off our force area. I can assure you that it doesn't feel right when you are stood at your base watching a different force helicopter do a job just over the road. With the new operating practise, we are now able to go on those jobs, meaning the previous ac doesn't have to transit the 25 miles to get here and we are able to now just literally pop over the fence and get it done quickly and efficiently.
Another problem highlighted here on this thread, is that although some are quite happy to announce that NPAS in their eyes know nothing about Police Aviation, we seem to be ignoring the fact that some of, "those that do", don't seem to know about how other units operate in different regions.
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SS - of course, when you're based on the edge of the area/county you (used to only) Police, it makes complete sense, and is more efficient, to hop over the old border and provide a service to the "neighbours". It has always been an anathema to me that the NW region, especially, should have been so parochial in their operations in the past - it never made sense, just as it makes no sense for the Met aircraft, who are actually based in Essex, not to provide coverage to the immediate area they're actually based in. It's been mentioned before that it's a noticeable transit for the Essex aircraft to get to the very built-up area around Lippitts from their base, making many jobs less worthwhile than if they were picked up by the unit at their doorstep!
What I was saying (and I'm personally very aware of how many other units operate) is that there will be many units, especially rural ones who might be based more centrally in their county or current operating area, who will be less effective, due to the significant increase in transit times around their vastly enlarged new areas. There was a post a little while ago by StandbyX2 demonstrating exactly the problem - flying from pillar to post, but achieving nothing!
What I was saying (and I'm personally very aware of how many other units operate) is that there will be many units, especially rural ones who might be based more centrally in their county or current operating area, who will be less effective, due to the significant increase in transit times around their vastly enlarged new areas. There was a post a little while ago by StandbyX2 demonstrating exactly the problem - flying from pillar to post, but achieving nothing!
Taking up [cherry-picking] a tiny part of the last SS post....
.... we seem to be ignoring the fact that some of, "those that do", don't seem to know about how other units operate in different regions.....
I must say there is still an inbuilt problem with UK police getting involved in just what 'others' do [and that is not air support in isolation] and meeting colleagues in various forums. The IPA was always thinly supported and the User Groups were always us and them without an apparent mix. UEO's meetings were 'cross border' but one rank strata only, joining 'open' police aviation organisations like ALEA was seen as largely for nerds and PACE requires the secret wearing of a pinny in a darkened room doesn't it? Other 'open' forums were ignored because the potential attendee was held back by the in-built police 'no-no' of having to spend a tenner getting there in their own time [even if the day and the night in the bar that followed was totally free].
It all weakened the operational capability, often a need to re-invent the wheel time and time again, and when it came to defending their corner [against NPAS for instance] because no-one knew the people next door sufficiently well enough to have a common attitude it was a fighting retreat rather than some tactical advance.
An Inbred inability to talk cross border even when given chance after chance has led to there being a lack of even discussing the options sensibly. That of course ignores the role of Pprune where you can talk [write] to your hearts content but you simply have to guess who the audience may be rather than argue face to face.
.... we seem to be ignoring the fact that some of, "those that do", don't seem to know about how other units operate in different regions.....
I must say there is still an inbuilt problem with UK police getting involved in just what 'others' do [and that is not air support in isolation] and meeting colleagues in various forums. The IPA was always thinly supported and the User Groups were always us and them without an apparent mix. UEO's meetings were 'cross border' but one rank strata only, joining 'open' police aviation organisations like ALEA was seen as largely for nerds and PACE requires the secret wearing of a pinny in a darkened room doesn't it? Other 'open' forums were ignored because the potential attendee was held back by the in-built police 'no-no' of having to spend a tenner getting there in their own time [even if the day and the night in the bar that followed was totally free].
It all weakened the operational capability, often a need to re-invent the wheel time and time again, and when it came to defending their corner [against NPAS for instance] because no-one knew the people next door sufficiently well enough to have a common attitude it was a fighting retreat rather than some tactical advance.
An Inbred inability to talk cross border even when given chance after chance has led to there being a lack of even discussing the options sensibly. That of course ignores the role of Pprune where you can talk [write] to your hearts content but you simply have to guess who the audience may be rather than argue face to face.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Slight thread side-step, but as I was reading this months PA News I wondered how many air ambulance covered England and Wales.
The Association of Air Ambulances in the UK led me to find there are 30, funnily enough more than the number of Police Helicopters planned under NPAS.
How is it that charity run organisations can operate so many ac on an independant basis? I asked myself. Surely if every one of them came together under one large umbrella, and procurement of every kind was controlled centrally, there would be amazing savings to be made.
After all they aren't that different to us, are they? In the majority the same type of ac, same reactive type of work, bases located as best as can be predicted 'where the work is' and no telling where the next 'big job' will be.
According to the various indivuidual air ambulance websites, it costs around £2 million a year to run the unit for a year. If they could collectively save £15 million a year as in the NPS plan, they would be saving the equivelant of the yearly costs to run 7.5 air ambulance helicopters. Instantly that is 25% savings nationally for charity based operators.
If the NPAS type of planning and readjustment is such a cost saver, why aren't the air ambulances, who are forever chasing donations for 'operating cash', doing the same thing?
Someone has it wrong...don't they?
The Association of Air Ambulances in the UK led me to find there are 30, funnily enough more than the number of Police Helicopters planned under NPAS.
How is it that charity run organisations can operate so many ac on an independant basis? I asked myself. Surely if every one of them came together under one large umbrella, and procurement of every kind was controlled centrally, there would be amazing savings to be made.
After all they aren't that different to us, are they? In the majority the same type of ac, same reactive type of work, bases located as best as can be predicted 'where the work is' and no telling where the next 'big job' will be.
According to the various indivuidual air ambulance websites, it costs around £2 million a year to run the unit for a year. If they could collectively save £15 million a year as in the NPS plan, they would be saving the equivelant of the yearly costs to run 7.5 air ambulance helicopters. Instantly that is 25% savings nationally for charity based operators.
If the NPAS type of planning and readjustment is such a cost saver, why aren't the air ambulances, who are forever chasing donations for 'operating cash', doing the same thing?
Someone has it wrong...don't they?
SS
The problem is that they cannot talk to each other either... clear signs of back biting from time to time. They are of course very much seperate entities with the very seperate identities that help them drum up their money and even the organisations they created themselves to assist with interaction seem to come and go with the wind, NAAS, CHAS ..... AAA...
The last election of their Chairman was a clear demonstration that they do not yet speak with one voice.... and may never do. They could do with a strong figure that is in post for more than the current 12 months... if they can decide on one.
Your comment about numbers highlights that the needs of the ambulance fraternity are met with five very different types [105, 135, 109, 365, 902 & 117 if they come back] flying a fairly low number of hours each dealing with about 0.05% of the daily clinical needs. So not that critical.
That is quite different from the proposed 1,700 hours each police [of potentially similar make/source] helicopters.... but I wonder whether that guessed at figure of 0.05% also relates in some way to the actual percentage number of police air operations undertaken if compared with the total number of reported incidents each day?
The problem is that they cannot talk to each other either... clear signs of back biting from time to time. They are of course very much seperate entities with the very seperate identities that help them drum up their money and even the organisations they created themselves to assist with interaction seem to come and go with the wind, NAAS, CHAS ..... AAA...
The last election of their Chairman was a clear demonstration that they do not yet speak with one voice.... and may never do. They could do with a strong figure that is in post for more than the current 12 months... if they can decide on one.
Your comment about numbers highlights that the needs of the ambulance fraternity are met with five very different types [105, 135, 109, 365, 902 & 117 if they come back] flying a fairly low number of hours each dealing with about 0.05% of the daily clinical needs. So not that critical.
That is quite different from the proposed 1,700 hours each police [of potentially similar make/source] helicopters.... but I wonder whether that guessed at figure of 0.05% also relates in some way to the actual percentage number of police air operations undertaken if compared with the total number of reported incidents each day?
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The UK Air Ambulance model mirrors the Australian Flying Doctor in many respects. Distance is critical for anyone needing major surgery.
Wales/Scotland etc warrant helicopter support for Medevac.
Poor roads and distance makes the helicopter an ideal and cost effective method of saving lives.
The positive reality tv shows add to the public perception of the good work done by the Air Ambulance network.
I can not see Joe Public putting money in a charity box for a police helicopter to chase a few scally's on a council estate in Liverpool.
Wales/Scotland etc warrant helicopter support for Medevac.
Poor roads and distance makes the helicopter an ideal and cost effective method of saving lives.
The positive reality tv shows add to the public perception of the good work done by the Air Ambulance network.
I can not see Joe Public putting money in a charity box for a police helicopter to chase a few scally's on a council estate in Liverpool.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
That'll be a big WHOOSH !!! over the head then
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PANews #1763
Spot on! Thought after 24 years with the forces I was leaving behind a tribal self serving organisation, then I started police flying......
Individual county based forces make the Armed forces seem positively enlightened. I've actually witnessed neighbouring forces buy different aircraft rather than take advice from those nearest them. On a good day I hear open hostility towards the way consortium partners manage their flying. The biggest laugh lately is the individual CCs congratulating themselves on comming up with plans to improve policing despite the cuts but still not seeing the bigger picture beyond their own force area. They've been dragged kicking and screaming to 'collaborate' with a neighbouring force to save money.
Don't get me wrong here, I love the actual task of police flying at the coal face, just think the whole county based structure is 30 years out of date and will remain so whilst each new CC can completely change everything every 3 years without batting an eyelid at what's going on over the fence.
I'm nailing my colours to the NPAS mast here before the economy gets worse and CCs start giving up their air support on an individual basis. Then we'd be looking at salvaging the scraps to form the 9 aircraft plan!
Spot on! Thought after 24 years with the forces I was leaving behind a tribal self serving organisation, then I started police flying......
Individual county based forces make the Armed forces seem positively enlightened. I've actually witnessed neighbouring forces buy different aircraft rather than take advice from those nearest them. On a good day I hear open hostility towards the way consortium partners manage their flying. The biggest laugh lately is the individual CCs congratulating themselves on comming up with plans to improve policing despite the cuts but still not seeing the bigger picture beyond their own force area. They've been dragged kicking and screaming to 'collaborate' with a neighbouring force to save money.
Don't get me wrong here, I love the actual task of police flying at the coal face, just think the whole county based structure is 30 years out of date and will remain so whilst each new CC can completely change everything every 3 years without batting an eyelid at what's going on over the fence.
I'm nailing my colours to the NPAS mast here before the economy gets worse and CCs start giving up their air support on an individual basis. Then we'd be looking at salvaging the scraps to form the 9 aircraft plan!
Art of Flight has made a very good point. The problem is made worse by the fact that no senior police officer is going to support the idea of merging or collaboration if it increases the chances of seeing their own career path disappearing. If 2 forces combine, that's one fewer CC, DCC and who knows how many ACCs jobs disappearing. Turkeys, even high ranking ones, are not going to be voting for Christmas.
Meanwhile, on the subject of Turkeys: BBC News - Anger at Nottinghamshire police chiefs pay rise proposals
Wonder what colour the sky is on her planet? At least her deputy has shown some grasp of the concept of leadership.
Meanwhile, on the subject of Turkeys: BBC News - Anger at Nottinghamshire police chiefs pay rise proposals
Wonder what colour the sky is on her planet?
At least her deputy has shown some grasp of the concept of leadership.
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Just wondering how society managed in the 1960's,70's and 80's when there was no police aviation.
Those were the days of police houses in villages with a resident copper on a bike or motorbike.No stab vests or pepper spray or a plod looking like something out of a US movie.
I'm old enough to remember when you could walk down Kensington High St or Whitehall without the noise of a police helicopter overhead.
We also managed without the high paid Guardian newspaper 'non jobs' such as community play leaders or lesbian outreach workers.
This country is in a financial mess.
Part of the cutbacks has to be a re-assessment of what police aviation units are in place for.
Those were the days of police houses in villages with a resident copper on a bike or motorbike.No stab vests or pepper spray or a plod looking like something out of a US movie.
I'm old enough to remember when you could walk down Kensington High St or Whitehall without the noise of a police helicopter overhead.
We also managed without the high paid Guardian newspaper 'non jobs' such as community play leaders or lesbian outreach workers.
This country is in a financial mess.
Part of the cutbacks has to be a re-assessment of what police aviation units are in place for.
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Just wondering how society managed in the 1960's,70's and 80's when there was no police aviation.
Sadly times have moved on and we have had to all move with them.
It would be nice if Police Aviation didn't exist and NPAS could create it from fresh. Sadly they are left to deal with the muddle that Art of Flight so correctly alludes to.
I too will nail my colours to the NPAS mast. I don't want to be left without a chair when the music stops, sadly some will be.
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money makes the world go round
I too agree with the NPAS idea, but I bet they would save a lot more money if someone in the home office made the decision to buy all police vehicles centrally, and do away with the many force fleet managers and other hangars on who are buying flash Evo's and top of range X5's.
Give the boys who want a 4x4 a basic landrover or ford, whats all this about floating about in a top spec BMW X5?
Think of the millions they would save at a stroke of a pen. They would probably be able to keep all the helicopters with all the money left over.
Give the boys who want a 4x4 a basic landrover or ford, whats all this about floating about in a top spec BMW X5?
Think of the millions they would save at a stroke of a pen. They would probably be able to keep all the helicopters with all the money left over.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Yes, well said Art of Flight, however I'm sure I've heard/read that somewhere here earlier Oh well !
Latest news on our Lords and Masters !
Police efficiency agency 'has £6.5m credit card bill'
BBC News - Police efficiency agency 'has £6.5m credit card bill'
Do we need to 'Watch this Space' ?
Oh well !Latest news on our Lords and Masters !
Police efficiency agency 'has £6.5m credit card bill'
A credit card bill of £6.5m was run up by staff at a quango tasked with making police forces in England and Wales more efficient, disclosures after a freedom of information request have revealed.
The National Police Improvement Agency (NPIA) incurred the costs in the financial years 2008-9 and 2009-10.
Spending on commemorative coins and karaoke equipment was revealed.
Ministers plan to phase out the quango, which was set up in 2007 to help forces in England and Wales to save money.
Its functions will be transferred elsewhere.
Much of the costs by staff at the quango were incurred as a result of train or airline tickets and hotel accommodation for staff who travelled on business.
However, a taxi bill of nearly £100,000 has been revealed along with expenditure on a diverse range of items including £828 on judo apparatus, £105 on pottery, £55 on karaoke equipment - and £28 on lingerie.
The government is reviewing the use of so called "procurement cards" in Whitehall.
It plans to publish all expenditure incurred on them above £500 from next month.
He said the agency would deliver £30m savings in the current financial year, adding that it delivered £54.5m savings in the previous year.
The National Police Improvement Agency (NPIA) incurred the costs in the financial years 2008-9 and 2009-10.
Spending on commemorative coins and karaoke equipment was revealed.
Ministers plan to phase out the quango, which was set up in 2007 to help forces in England and Wales to save money.
Its functions will be transferred elsewhere.
Much of the costs by staff at the quango were incurred as a result of train or airline tickets and hotel accommodation for staff who travelled on business.
However, a taxi bill of nearly £100,000 has been revealed along with expenditure on a diverse range of items including £828 on judo apparatus, £105 on pottery, £55 on karaoke equipment - and £28 on lingerie.
The government is reviewing the use of so called "procurement cards" in Whitehall.
It plans to publish all expenditure incurred on them above £500 from next month.
He said the agency would deliver £30m savings in the current financial year, adding that it delivered £54.5m savings in the previous year.
Do we need to 'Watch this Space' ?
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Sounds like at least a few here realise the problem with the way things currently work, I was only putting a current 'insider' view on PANews post and with credit to SS and others previous posts trying to focus on why the current NPAS proposal is in my view the best outcome given the cuts.
Oddly enough I am a turkey voting for Christmas as I'm employed by a consortium that has to lose pilots by next year and my current role won't exist...............
Oddly enough I am a turkey voting for Christmas as I'm employed by a consortium that has to lose pilots by next year and my current role won't exist...............
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Aircraft Location
Coming to this arguement a bit late but...
Reading myself in to a previous quote....
"Under the new system, instead of having the 'local helicopter' more than 30 miles away, it is now half that distance. Surely that is more efficient and is providing a better service locally at a regional level. (We aren't national yet!)"
NPAS have played a blinder here in Sheffield under that premis! 1,200 hrs a year, 54% of jobs three minutes flying time away, the remainder spread over (in order) Rotherham, Doncaster and Barnsley. All now to be covered by one helicopter that isn't even in our region, another helicopter that can't reach Sheffield in less than 25 mins from a standing start and the last resource from the second busiest ASU in the country. Good thinking.
My money would be on binning the NPIA input to NPAS and getting CC Marshal to listen to the operators rather than an accountant.
Yours
Bitter and twisted fo Sheffield
Reading myself in to a previous quote....
"Under the new system, instead of having the 'local helicopter' more than 30 miles away, it is now half that distance. Surely that is more efficient and is providing a better service locally at a regional level. (We aren't national yet!)"
NPAS have played a blinder here in Sheffield under that premis! 1,200 hrs a year, 54% of jobs three minutes flying time away, the remainder spread over (in order) Rotherham, Doncaster and Barnsley. All now to be covered by one helicopter that isn't even in our region, another helicopter that can't reach Sheffield in less than 25 mins from a standing start and the last resource from the second busiest ASU in the country. Good thinking.
My money would be on binning the NPIA input to NPAS and getting CC Marshal to listen to the operators rather than an accountant.
Yours
Bitter and twisted fo Sheffield
Mal,
I think you mean NPAS have played a blind - as in didn't look or, for that matter, listen. As for CC Marshall listening to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.........
I think you mean NPAS have played a blind - as in didn't look or, for that matter, listen. As for CC Marshall listening to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about.........