UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
...and to let everyone know about this party, we should go to South Yorkshire Police;
Finance | South Yorkshire Police
How much money has been spent supplying staff with smartphone handsets such as Blackberries in the last financial year?
£408,040
£408,040
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
..and I'm sure they could supply a Master of Ceremonies;
Under the Freedom of Information Act, please could you tell me whether, since 1st January 2007, your force has paid for any "celebrities", such as television personalities (including local television), actors, "celebrity chefs", newsreaders, musicians, sports stars, authors etc, to carry out any work for your force.
SYP response:
South Yorkshire police have paid for "celebrities" to carry out work for our organisation.
Celebrities:
Richard Noble
Angela Rippon
Floyd Woodrow
Christa Ackroyd
Harry Gration
All were motivational speakers, apart from Christa Ackroyd and Harry Gration who were paid to present an awards ceremony.
A combined total of £17,828 was paid to the above five celebrities.
SYP response:
South Yorkshire police have paid for "celebrities" to carry out work for our organisation.
Celebrities:
Richard Noble
Angela Rippon
Floyd Woodrow
Christa Ackroyd
Harry Gration
All were motivational speakers, apart from Christa Ackroyd and Harry Gration who were paid to present an awards ceremony.
A combined total of £17,828 was paid to the above five celebrities.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
...and some raffle prizes;
Finance | South Yorkshire Police
Under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 please could you tell me how much your force spent on promotional items in the previous two financial years (2009-10 and 2008-9).
1) Total from April 1st 2008- March 31st 2009: £55,780.37
Total from April 1st 2009- March 31st 2010: £99,773.11
Top promotional items for this financial year
Fuzzy Bugs.........£2,517.80
Pencils...............£5,078.95
Pens..................£16,671.80
Trolley Keyrings...£6,087.90
1) Total from April 1st 2008- March 31st 2009: £55,780.37
Total from April 1st 2009- March 31st 2010: £99,773.11
Top promotional items for this financial year
Fuzzy Bugs.........£2,517.80
Pencils...............£5,078.95
Pens..................£16,671.80
Trolley Keyrings...£6,087.90
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Police pledge fight for air support
Published on Monday 12 September 2011 07:27
THE chairman of South Yorkshire Police Authority today vowed to fight to maintain effective air support after it was announced the force helicopter will be replaced by a new National Police Air Service.
The county’s dedicated chopper will stop operating in January 2013.
The National Police Air Service will consist of 23 aircraft operating from 20 bases, with the nearest to South Yorkshire in Derbyshire, Humberside and West Yorkshire.
But South Yorkshire Police Authority chair Charles Perryman said: “We will not be pressurised into making or accepting a decision regarding the future of the force helicopter until we know how this will impact on the standard of service to the public in South Yorkshire.”
“We want to make sure when the national model is implemented it maintains the existing excellent service.”
Published on Monday 12 September 2011 07:27
THE chairman of South Yorkshire Police Authority today vowed to fight to maintain effective air support after it was announced the force helicopter will be replaced by a new National Police Air Service.
The county’s dedicated chopper will stop operating in January 2013.
The National Police Air Service will consist of 23 aircraft operating from 20 bases, with the nearest to South Yorkshire in Derbyshire, Humberside and West Yorkshire.
But South Yorkshire Police Authority chair Charles Perryman said: “We will not be pressurised into making or accepting a decision regarding the future of the force helicopter until we know how this will impact on the standard of service to the public in South Yorkshire.”
“We want to make sure when the national model is implemented it maintains the existing excellent service.”
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Who is going to empty the bins and hoover the carpets from April?
(Other vacuum cleaning devices are available from various retailers)
(Other vacuum cleaning devices are available from various retailers)
Back in post 1802/1805 and 1836 I mentioned attempts to get the current police forces to talk about operations in the recent 'riots'. As some of you will be aware the end result although not as comprehensive as intended was fine and useful when published.
You may also recall that Cheshire decided to say nothing and go the FOI route.
Well I have had the reply from them now [much too late]. Bear in mind this whole exercise was kicked off by someone in the industry telling me that it would in effect be 'good for the industry to write up the acts of great operational activity undertaken by CHESHIRE police as they supported GMP during the riots'....
Everyone thought affected was contacted [press and unit] and the end result article reflected the replies received. Less than comprehensive.
Anyway, just for completeness Cheshire's FOI response was....
In accordance with section 1(1) (b) of the Act our response is provided
below;
There are no cooperative instances affecting the operational use of the
North West Region air units throughout the region.
So it seems that the Cheshire aircraft did not respond to the GMP disturbances. I was, I am afraid, misled. The group of aviators in the North West do not interact. Still nothing from NPAS either.
You may also recall that Cheshire decided to say nothing and go the FOI route.
Well I have had the reply from them now [much too late]. Bear in mind this whole exercise was kicked off by someone in the industry telling me that it would in effect be 'good for the industry to write up the acts of great operational activity undertaken by CHESHIRE police as they supported GMP during the riots'....
Everyone thought affected was contacted [press and unit] and the end result article reflected the replies received. Less than comprehensive.
Anyway, just for completeness Cheshire's FOI response was....
In accordance with section 1(1) (b) of the Act our response is provided
below;
There are no cooperative instances affecting the operational use of the
North West Region air units throughout the region.
So it seems that the Cheshire aircraft did not respond to the GMP disturbances. I was, I am afraid, misled. The group of aviators in the North West do not interact. Still nothing from NPAS either.
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figures..
Now then,
It has been published that South Yorks are making a saving of £600k on air support. I would like to interject that I believe this figure does not include staff wages....
Unless someone can suggest otherwise....
Neither does any of the figures quoted for the apparent savings.
So to shed some light, I have done some digging which is easily found on t'interweb.
South Yorks employs 9 x constables (I believe) @ £36,516 ea
2 x Sergeants @ £41,040 ea
This equates to £410,724...... leaving a saving of £189,276
Oops suddenly the massive saving doesnt look so big, for a massively reduced service from 20 mins away.
Add this to any other costs that NPAS have "forgotten" to add in.........
It has been published that South Yorks are making a saving of £600k on air support. I would like to interject that I believe this figure does not include staff wages....
Unless someone can suggest otherwise....
Neither does any of the figures quoted for the apparent savings.
So to shed some light, I have done some digging which is easily found on t'interweb.
South Yorks employs 9 x constables (I believe) @ £36,516 ea
2 x Sergeants @ £41,040 ea
This equates to £410,724...... leaving a saving of £189,276
Oops suddenly the massive saving doesnt look so big, for a massively reduced service from 20 mins away.
Add this to any other costs that NPAS have "forgotten" to add in.........
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to reiterate...
I would suggest the costs being bounded around are for the aircraft and pilotage. It hasnt taken into account the cost of wages of the officers.
Of course on paper it is going to look like a saving when you say you can provide an aircraft and pilot for £1.4M.
However you already pay your staff £0.4M in wages.
Oh look £1.8M.......hmmmmmm no cost saving.
Of course on paper it is going to look like a saving when you say you can provide an aircraft and pilot for £1.4M.
However you already pay your staff £0.4M in wages.
Oh look £1.8M.......hmmmmmm no cost saving.
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My point exactly...
as quoted by airpolice.....If the eleven guys go back to Divisions, there is no money saved as they are still being paid.
I refer to the part...."there is no money saved"
exactly......
I refer to the part...."there is no money saved"
exactly......
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Answer A..... If 11 officers go back to division, that division/s has 11 officers too many based on current establishments, answer, the next 11 that retire or are posted are not replaced, equals saving, simples!
Answer B..... The 11 officers replace 20 civis who are made redundant, answer, savings!
Answer C..... Do some deeper research such as asking your local force for the real ASU budget figures and you will find what is and isn't on the balance sheet (ie police officers).
Answer B..... The 11 officers replace 20 civis who are made redundant, answer, savings!
Answer C..... Do some deeper research such as asking your local force for the real ASU budget figures and you will find what is and isn't on the balance sheet (ie police officers).
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what a load of........
Answer to answer a, That could take anything up to 10 years to wait for a constable to retire.... equals no savings. Also local divisions are already overmanned and are looking to make cuts.
Answer to answer b, It is illegal to make someone redundant to instate someone else, as that position is clearly not being made redundant. Equals, unfair/constructive dismissal, equals no savings, infact costs a whole lot more.
Answer to answer c, again doing some more digging and deeper research on t'internet. The South Yorkshire budget of £1.63M, consists of:
Aircraft (and fuel for 1200hrs/year)
Pilotage
Full PART 145 engineering support, both scheduled and non scheduled
Observers
Looks like a complete operating budget to me......
Answer to answer b, It is illegal to make someone redundant to instate someone else, as that position is clearly not being made redundant. Equals, unfair/constructive dismissal, equals no savings, infact costs a whole lot more.
Answer to answer c, again doing some more digging and deeper research on t'internet. The South Yorkshire budget of £1.63M, consists of:
Aircraft (and fuel for 1200hrs/year)
Pilotage
Full PART 145 engineering support, both scheduled and non scheduled
Observers
Looks like a complete operating budget to me......
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Lies damn lies and statistics!!
In response to FF's flawed figures I have spent some time researching the relevant figures and find FF's arguments fatally flawed,
so heres the result.
According to South Yorkshire Polices own figures here.
SYP employs
2316 Constables
@ around £42000 each = £97,272,000
436 Sergeants
@ Around £47000 each = £20,492,000
Total Wage Bill for lower ranks £117,764,000
Now to save my sanity lets say that they have five divisions and staff are shared between them
A Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
B Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
C Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
D Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
Ops Div =88 Sergeants & 464 Constables (Ops get the spare one)
We can now see that the Divisional Budgets for LOWER RANKED STAFF ONLY come to
A Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
B Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
C Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
D Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
Ops Div =4,136,000(Sgts)+18,396,000(PCs)=£22532000
Total Budget = £117,764,000
Now using FF’s figures lets assume the Air Support Unit (Ops Div)consists of 2 Sergeants and 11 Constables and the Air Support Unit closes, Immediately they need Jobs the Sgts go to A & B div (for simplicity) Two PC’s each go to A to D Div and three manage to get places at Ops Div, the wages bill now looks like this
A Div =88 Sgt + 463PC=£23,582,000
B Div =88 Sgt + 463PC=£23,582,000
C Div =87 Sgt + 463PC=£23,535,000
D Div =87 Sgt + 463PC=£23,535,000
Ops Div =86 Sgt + 464PC=£23,530,000
Total Budget = £117,764,000
Now the thorny question of retirement,
South Yorkshire Police have 2,974 staff from here:
Met Police have figures here:
That show that 129 Police constables are of 31 years service and 68 Sergeants of 31 years service. Thats out of 31000 sworn officers,
That means that each month Met expect 10 Police Constables and 6 Police Sergeants to retire.
Met are ten times the size of South Yorkshire (31000 Sworn staff against 2974)
So we can surmise that each Month South Yorkshire could expect to lose 1 constable and half a Sgt (Yuk1)
At that rate the unit South Yorkshire Police will have effectively lost the total staff cost of its Air Support unit in Twelve to thirteen Months (Eleven Constables and Half a Sgt in the first eleven months then two months to cover the cost of the other Sgt in PCs gone from other posts) a saving of:
2 Sergeants @ £47,000 = £94,000
11 Constables @ £42,000 =£462,000
Total Saving £556,000
Now lets not forget that £556,000 saving is every year from now on, all of a sudden its no longer a small saving.
Now add the Operating cost of South Yorkshires Air Operations unit which is here
“I would like to know the annual maintenance costs and the cost of pilots, equipment, training etc.
The total operating budget for 2008/09 for the Air Operations Unit is £1,279,471 including fuel, maintenance costs, insurance costs, equipment, pilots and engineers costs and aviation fees.**“
Note that no mention is made of Police Officers or observers costs in this reply.
Now add the wages saving of £556,000 to South Yorkshires own figure and we get £1,835,471.
A total saving of just over £1.8 Million per year, every year. As a tax payer that sounds like good value to me, now I accept that South Yorkshire will have to make a contribution annually to NPAS, no one really knows at the moment but a figure of £500k has been bandied about here and elsewhere.
Still a decent saving of £1.3Million PA. At that SYP would get access to 24hr Air Support unlike the lower level of service it receives now from its own staff!!
I’m sorry that this is a long reply, I’m sorry for the number of links (just in case you want the TRUE) figures, but I hope that this will put to rest some of FF’s claims as regards savings to be made at South Yorkshire Police.
so heres the result.
According to South Yorkshire Polices own figures here.
SYP employs
2316 Constables
@ around £42000 each = £97,272,000
436 Sergeants
@ Around £47000 each = £20,492,000
Total Wage Bill for lower ranks £117,764,000
Now to save my sanity lets say that they have five divisions and staff are shared between them
A Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
B Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
C Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
D Div =87 Sergeants & 463 Constables
Ops Div =88 Sergeants & 464 Constables (Ops get the spare one)
We can now see that the Divisional Budgets for LOWER RANKED STAFF ONLY come to
A Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
B Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
C Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
D Div =4,089,000(Sgts)+18,354,000(PCs)=£22443000
Ops Div =4,136,000(Sgts)+18,396,000(PCs)=£22532000
Total Budget = £117,764,000
Now using FF’s figures lets assume the Air Support Unit (Ops Div)consists of 2 Sergeants and 11 Constables and the Air Support Unit closes, Immediately they need Jobs the Sgts go to A & B div (for simplicity) Two PC’s each go to A to D Div and three manage to get places at Ops Div, the wages bill now looks like this
A Div =88 Sgt + 463PC=£23,582,000
B Div =88 Sgt + 463PC=£23,582,000
C Div =87 Sgt + 463PC=£23,535,000
D Div =87 Sgt + 463PC=£23,535,000
Ops Div =86 Sgt + 464PC=£23,530,000
Total Budget = £117,764,000
Now the thorny question of retirement,
South Yorkshire Police have 2,974 staff from here:
Met Police have figures here:
That show that 129 Police constables are of 31 years service and 68 Sergeants of 31 years service. Thats out of 31000 sworn officers,
That means that each month Met expect 10 Police Constables and 6 Police Sergeants to retire.
Met are ten times the size of South Yorkshire (31000 Sworn staff against 2974)
So we can surmise that each Month South Yorkshire could expect to lose 1 constable and half a Sgt (Yuk1)
At that rate the unit South Yorkshire Police will have effectively lost the total staff cost of its Air Support unit in Twelve to thirteen Months (Eleven Constables and Half a Sgt in the first eleven months then two months to cover the cost of the other Sgt in PCs gone from other posts) a saving of:
2 Sergeants @ £47,000 = £94,000
11 Constables @ £42,000 =£462,000
Total Saving £556,000
Now lets not forget that £556,000 saving is every year from now on, all of a sudden its no longer a small saving.
Now add the Operating cost of South Yorkshires Air Operations unit which is here
“I would like to know the annual maintenance costs and the cost of pilots, equipment, training etc.
The total operating budget for 2008/09 for the Air Operations Unit is £1,279,471 including fuel, maintenance costs, insurance costs, equipment, pilots and engineers costs and aviation fees.**“
Note that no mention is made of Police Officers or observers costs in this reply.
Now add the wages saving of £556,000 to South Yorkshires own figure and we get £1,835,471.
A total saving of just over £1.8 Million per year, every year. As a tax payer that sounds like good value to me, now I accept that South Yorkshire will have to make a contribution annually to NPAS, no one really knows at the moment but a figure of £500k has been bandied about here and elsewhere.
Still a decent saving of £1.3Million PA. At that SYP would get access to 24hr Air Support unlike the lower level of service it receives now from its own staff!!
I’m sorry that this is a long reply, I’m sorry for the number of links (just in case you want the TRUE) figures, but I hope that this will put to rest some of FF’s claims as regards savings to be made at South Yorkshire Police.
Last edited by Wagging Finger; 20th Sep 2011 at 12:41.
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A going round in small circles update.
The force budget was already based on the retirement losses you mention, so you can't save that money twice.
The force budget was already based on the retirement losses you mention, so you can't save that money twice.
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what a waste of space......
Wow that is a whole lot of information. I was totally convinced in what he had to say, right up to the part that South Yorks will have access to 24hr Air Ops....
That is minus the 1200hrs that West Yorkshire will want and the 1200hrs that North Mids will want. Oh and the 20 mins transit time. Then there is the non scheduled maintenance issue, where North Mids may have to cover from Nottingham to Harrogate. Or the Weather issue, that Leeds being 600ft amsl, might be fogged in, I could go on......
Also if South Yorkshire can make all those savings on personnel alone, isn't everyone doing it? If so do we really need to make all these cuts after all?
If any other Air Support Units can match the budget set by South Yorks I will be mightily impressed. I believe that you will not be able to find a more frugal and financially efficient unit.
I challenge any of you to find a Unit who in 2009/2010 can match the budget restraints of £1.63M as promulgated by South Yorks.
This should include
Aircraft
Pilotage
Insurances
Full part145 maintenance (scheduled and non scheduled)
Observers ( yes the budget does include this I have checked)
Fuel
Over to you wagging finger......
That is minus the 1200hrs that West Yorkshire will want and the 1200hrs that North Mids will want. Oh and the 20 mins transit time. Then there is the non scheduled maintenance issue, where North Mids may have to cover from Nottingham to Harrogate. Or the Weather issue, that Leeds being 600ft amsl, might be fogged in, I could go on......
Also if South Yorkshire can make all those savings on personnel alone, isn't everyone doing it? If so do we really need to make all these cuts after all?
If any other Air Support Units can match the budget set by South Yorks I will be mightily impressed. I believe that you will not be able to find a more frugal and financially efficient unit.
I challenge any of you to find a Unit who in 2009/2010 can match the budget restraints of £1.63M as promulgated by South Yorks.
This should include
Aircraft
Pilotage
Insurances
Full part145 maintenance (scheduled and non scheduled)
Observers ( yes the budget does include this I have checked)
Fuel
Over to you wagging finger......
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Eh?
FF it's daily obvious from your post that you stand to either;
a) Have to find work as a pilot from January 2013
OR
b) Be out there in the big bad world of Policing in January 2013
as regards my comment re 24hr Aircraft
Where is south Yorkshires aircraft at 01-00 on a Sunday morning? I would hazard a guess at locked away in it's hangar whilst it's crews snore happily in bed, Whilst Leeds Bradford International Airport may be 681ft AMSL the bases you mentioned are certainly not. I take it from your post that the SYP aircraft is NEVER affected by weather and maintenance issues, if thats the case perhaps SYP should put in a bid to run NPAS what with their financial know how bolted on they are sure to be a winner.
I notice from here that West Yorkshire were in South Yorkshire at 20-30 on Sunday night, where was their aircraft at that time, down for maintenance or something else
Sadly geography and range circles have put paid to SYP Air Support. No amount of argument on here can alter that fact, what I do object to is members putting out false statistics. I was transparent in my post showing the source for my figures, prey tell where you have checked that observers costs are included in that figure? Because their own web site doesn't say that!
Advantage Wagging Finger New Balls Please
a) Have to find work as a pilot from January 2013
OR
b) Be out there in the big bad world of Policing in January 2013
as regards my comment re 24hr Aircraft
That is minus the 1200hrs that West Yorkshire will want and the 1200hrs that North Mids will want. Oh and the 20 mins transit time. Then there is the non scheduled maintenance issue, where North Mids may have to cover from Nottingham to Harrogate. Or the Weather issue, that Leeds being 600ft amsl, might be fogged in, I could go on......
I notice from here that West Yorkshire were in South Yorkshire at 20-30 on Sunday night, where was their aircraft at that time, down for maintenance or something else
Sadly geography and range circles have put paid to SYP Air Support. No amount of argument on here can alter that fact, what I do object to is members putting out false statistics. I was transparent in my post showing the source for my figures, prey tell where you have checked that observers costs are included in that figure? Because their own web site doesn't say that!
Advantage Wagging Finger New Balls Please
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and another thing....
I believe I used the correct figures for Constables and Sergeants instead of the approximate figures Wagging finger used.... what else did he approximate???
If South Yorkshire loose that amount of personnel every year, then losing the Air Ops doesnt contribute to that fact. They lost that amount the year before and the year before that....?????
So back to the figures, South Yorkshire still have to pay the observers!!!!
So a loss of £1.3M as approximated by wagging finger. The £0.6M as approximated by wagging finger still to pay.. equals £0.7M saving... woohoo.
Unfortunately wagging fingers' figure are fatally flawed and the amount South Yorks have to pay is £1.1M to NPAS, oops a LOSS of £0.4M.
Bearing in mind South Yorks is in a consortium with West Yorks and Humberside and ALREADY have access to 24hr air support.....
Looks like a good deal to me... Arent stats brilliant....
If South Yorkshire loose that amount of personnel every year, then losing the Air Ops doesnt contribute to that fact. They lost that amount the year before and the year before that....?????
So back to the figures, South Yorkshire still have to pay the observers!!!!
So a loss of £1.3M as approximated by wagging finger. The £0.6M as approximated by wagging finger still to pay.. equals £0.7M saving... woohoo.
Unfortunately wagging fingers' figure are fatally flawed and the amount South Yorks have to pay is £1.1M to NPAS, oops a LOSS of £0.4M.
Bearing in mind South Yorks is in a consortium with West Yorks and Humberside and ALREADY have access to 24hr air support.....
Looks like a good deal to me... Arent stats brilliant....