UK Police helicopter budget cuts
It is becoming clear that many Chief Officers signed up to the NPAS project without really appreciating what they were really committing themselves to.
They were taken in by such attractive quotes as "They will have more aircraft available to them" -- Strictly true I suppose, but they never asked themselves, "How can that be, with seven less aircraft?" " How far away are these supporting aircraft?" How long will they take to get here? Will they now need to refuel before they can do anything?
Air support can only be truly effective if it is rapid, properly equipped, and effectively deployed. These plans do not fulfill those basic criteria and will not deliver.
If money has to be saved, do it by National contracts for fuel, maintenance, Insurance, PAOC, training and command structure. Deliver the service regionally . If some aircraft are under used then examine why before disposing. They might be better used elswhere. Scrap those stupid range rings and make your decisions based on demand profiles. Consider a unified fleet.
But before doing anything, ensure that you have the communications sorted out. The concept has always worked best when "Any PC can request" not relying on control rooms decisions. the involvement of Multiple control rooms is a recipe for confusion and inefficiency.
Dont get hung up on the mantra of borderless policing! The Police Air units of the UK have always been in the forfront of that concept. Communications between units one of our strengths.
Tigerfish
They were taken in by such attractive quotes as "They will have more aircraft available to them" -- Strictly true I suppose, but they never asked themselves, "How can that be, with seven less aircraft?" " How far away are these supporting aircraft?" How long will they take to get here? Will they now need to refuel before they can do anything?
Air support can only be truly effective if it is rapid, properly equipped, and effectively deployed. These plans do not fulfill those basic criteria and will not deliver.
If money has to be saved, do it by National contracts for fuel, maintenance, Insurance, PAOC, training and command structure. Deliver the service regionally . If some aircraft are under used then examine why before disposing. They might be better used elswhere. Scrap those stupid range rings and make your decisions based on demand profiles. Consider a unified fleet.
But before doing anything, ensure that you have the communications sorted out. The concept has always worked best when "Any PC can request" not relying on control rooms decisions. the involvement of Multiple control rooms is a recipe for confusion and inefficiency.
Dont get hung up on the mantra of borderless policing! The Police Air units of the UK have always been in the forfront of that concept. Communications between units one of our strengths.
Tigerfish
Is this the answer, wrap up warm 
Sorry Sid forgot the smileys
Palm Bay police paraglider unit plans to expand | floridatoday.com | FLORIDA TODAY
Sorry Sid forgot the smileys
Palm Bay police paraglider unit plans to expand | floridatoday.com | FLORIDA TODAY
Last edited by 500e; 25th Dec 2010 at 11:26.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The initial idea for the aerial search program came about after a group of Palm Bay officers who fly similar paragliders recreationally were asked by Palm Bay Police Chief William Berger to organize a special team.
2. Reading the article, they haven't actually achieved anything in the year and a half they have been operating, and in their own words..."We're still waiting for that big moment,"
3. The clue that something is not quite right is in the name, Paraglider!
I think the officers involved must also have a link to our new setup, as they seem to be good at smoke/mirrors & wool over eyes techniques.
There's an engine there somewhere, which would therefore make it a Paramotor!
On the video in the previous link by 500e;
Limited by wind & weather
10 mph wind limit!
Experimental class of ac
Civil Air Patrol
That horrible 2 stroke sound!
Her's another video, firstly try not to laugh too much, and then once you've recovered, just imagine some of the observers in your unit having a go !
:rotfl:
Happy Christmas to you all
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Sorry Sid,
I tried really hard to do what you said, but
( despite not havng much to laugh about recently ),
I just couldn't help myself
What's the brown stuff in the white tank - Fuel ?
in which case there doesn't seem to be very much ?
or is it a ***** collector -
in which case there's probably the correct amount from that "flight".
Seasons greetings,
I tried really hard to do what you said, but
( despite not havng much to laugh about recently ),
I just couldn't help myself
What's the brown stuff in the white tank - Fuel ?
in which case there doesn't seem to be very much ?
or is it a ***** collector -
in which case there's probably the correct amount from that "flight".
Seasons greetings,
I met with these people, they are keen as mustard but not in the same league as UK police aviators..... they are something like the UK plans of the 1960s when the UK had City forces.... Durham for instance with their Brantly B2
Almost every US State has air support for the masses .... usually it is hard pressed to meet a fraction of the local state demands put upon it by the hundreds of police units in each state. So you get 'stand alone' operations flying anything that can be afforded.
But 17,000 police forces do not yet have 17,000 ASU's so the US government has got together a plan that seeks to provide equipment [including aircraft of many types] to units that are otherwise too small to support any air support. You would not expect Rutland or Brighton to have their own ASUs but under the scheme this is possible and it gives those that want air support automony.
It is easy to take the p** out of the aspirations of these Floridians but they can only afford the Parachute option. It could be a microlight or an R44. At least their Government is giving them choice and not simply taking away what already exists.... bought and paid for if you will.... and 'doing more with less.'
There is another little sting in this tale though. US law allowed each of the men in Palm Bay to go fly operationally totally without training or certification! A year on they are certified now, but they do not need to be and neither do their aircraft need to pass any tests..... its all about Public Use. Scary stuff!
And already you can see the green shoots of that go it alone thinking in the UK. Wasn't there a story that NPAS wanted to remove the A109 from Dyfed-Powys so the next thing you hear is that they [Dyfed] are looking at getting their own fixed wing.... nationalise all you want but there is likely to be someone out there that wants to go it alone....
Almost every US State has air support for the masses .... usually it is hard pressed to meet a fraction of the local state demands put upon it by the hundreds of police units in each state. So you get 'stand alone' operations flying anything that can be afforded.
But 17,000 police forces do not yet have 17,000 ASU's so the US government has got together a plan that seeks to provide equipment [including aircraft of many types] to units that are otherwise too small to support any air support. You would not expect Rutland or Brighton to have their own ASUs but under the scheme this is possible and it gives those that want air support automony.
It is easy to take the p** out of the aspirations of these Floridians but they can only afford the Parachute option. It could be a microlight or an R44. At least their Government is giving them choice and not simply taking away what already exists.... bought and paid for if you will.... and 'doing more with less.'
There is another little sting in this tale though. US law allowed each of the men in Palm Bay to go fly operationally totally without training or certification! A year on they are certified now, but they do not need to be and neither do their aircraft need to pass any tests..... its all about Public Use. Scary stuff!
And already you can see the green shoots of that go it alone thinking in the UK. Wasn't there a story that NPAS wanted to remove the A109 from Dyfed-Powys so the next thing you hear is that they [Dyfed] are looking at getting their own fixed wing.... nationalise all you want but there is likely to be someone out there that wants to go it alone....
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
.... nationalise all you want but there is likely to be someone out there that wants to go it alone....
Now where have I heard that before?
O.D. addresses the nations CC's at the 'secret meeting'.
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Whither NPAS? or should that be wither?
"Dog mess in the seat runners" - as nothing compared with bull***t from the "dream" team, imminently minus one who has obviously seen the light.
The 20 minute circles are really more like 30 by the time that the local control room has fed the call to the central control room and the a/c despatched, given that most ASUs now keep their insurers happy by hangaring at night.
How does one take this to the next level? - write to your MP and Police Authority?
Compared with the Overseas aid budget > £9 billion, the "savings" are small change. The new government has strange priorities
The 20 minute circles are really more like 30 by the time that the local control room has fed the call to the central control room and the a/c despatched, given that most ASUs now keep their insurers happy by hangaring at night.
How does one take this to the next level? - write to your MP and Police Authority?
Compared with the Overseas aid budget > £9 billion, the "savings" are small change. The new government has strange priorities
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Reducing helicopter numbers is only part of the drive to save money.
Tasking is the other area in desperate need of a "pair of balls" , Forces will happily send their aircraft out on the most mundane and ridiculous tasks, often against the advice of the crews, giving them the most pointless and futile searches .
Police forces have descended into trying to acheive the impossible with every task which may end in a civil claim against them.
Corporate arse covering adds thousands of pounds to air operations budgets, if some plank has rang the Police for the 18th time in a month threatening suicide, then why exactly does the helicopter have to go look for him ?
Because nobody will say "No we are not coming, he has done this 18 times this month" , just in case.
If anyone sees any balls for sale, sturdy, stainless steel, corrosion resistant, with a hefty weight about them, drop me a line.
I need 43 pairs for the people needing them most, The Armchair Police !
Tasking is the other area in desperate need of a "pair of balls" , Forces will happily send their aircraft out on the most mundane and ridiculous tasks, often against the advice of the crews, giving them the most pointless and futile searches .
Police forces have descended into trying to acheive the impossible with every task which may end in a civil claim against them.
Corporate arse covering adds thousands of pounds to air operations budgets, if some plank has rang the Police for the 18th time in a month threatening suicide, then why exactly does the helicopter have to go look for him ?
Because nobody will say "No we are not coming, he has done this 18 times this month" , just in case.
If anyone sees any balls for sale, sturdy, stainless steel, corrosion resistant, with a hefty weight about them, drop me a line.
I need 43 pairs for the people needing them most, The Armchair Police !
Microwave revisited
I have learned that one of the items to be resolved by NPAS will be the differences in standard of microwave link between current operators.
It was said there would be a common standard, which is to be expected, but also suggested that the identity of the winner of that common standard was 'not decided' yet. Competition warning!
This sort of beggars belief.
I do not have list of who has what but at the moment there are probably 4 differing standards of analogue and digital in use and these will gravitate to one after 2012 [and the Olympics]. What is being suggested is that the selection will be open and that the fact that one company has pretty much sewn up the UK market will not count in their favour....
Not sure about anyone else but I find that hard to believe.... even if all the other cost saving measures proposed for NPAS are pretty flimsy.... converting 90% of your fleet [and the infrastructure] from Brand A to meet the alternative 10% holding Brand X, or even a wholly new Brand Y does not make any sense.
But that is the fairy tale.
Oh, and that is something else that NPAS central control will have to be wired for....
It was said there would be a common standard, which is to be expected, but also suggested that the identity of the winner of that common standard was 'not decided' yet. Competition warning!
This sort of beggars belief.
I do not have list of who has what but at the moment there are probably 4 differing standards of analogue and digital in use and these will gravitate to one after 2012 [and the Olympics]. What is being suggested is that the selection will be open and that the fact that one company has pretty much sewn up the UK market will not count in their favour....
Not sure about anyone else but I find that hard to believe.... even if all the other cost saving measures proposed for NPAS are pretty flimsy.... converting 90% of your fleet [and the infrastructure] from Brand A to meet the alternative 10% holding Brand X, or even a wholly new Brand Y does not make any sense.
But that is the fairy tale.
Oh, and that is something else that NPAS central control will have to be wired for....
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Cleveland to lose £17 million in the cuts
Councillor McLuckie chair of Cleveland Police Authority announced in the Evening Gazette today that his force is losing £17 million due budget cuts.
He says the Cleveland force is about to purchase a new £6million helicopter with the help of a gov grant (1mill) The same new helicopter will become a national treasure in 2012 under NPAS. Bought by cleveland but used by anyone else.
North Yorks the largest county in England will be made up with the latest NPAS news, especially when they havent had to fund the new Cleveland a/c which they will be using in 2012
in 2009 McLuckie wouldnt agree to the other 2 NEASU consortium forces plans for one a/c, as they said that there wasnt a need for 2 a/c in the consortium area. Councillor McLuckie demanded the spare a/c for his own force use, but now he mentions that that further cuts may be made in light of the latest Home Office funding cuts.
Cleveland is one of the smallest counties in England and McLuckie fought the last governments attempt to amalgamate the Cleveland force with the Northumbria and Durham forces.
He appears to be very worried councillor on his CPA website spouting about the latest plans for the new police commisionaires who will be paid £120k pa, even though McLuckie and his fellow Cleveland authority councillors claimed over £200k in expenses in Cleveland last year! Its only tax payers money after all isnt it
He says the Cleveland force is about to purchase a new £6million helicopter with the help of a gov grant (1mill) The same new helicopter will become a national treasure in 2012 under NPAS. Bought by cleveland but used by anyone else.
North Yorks the largest county in England will be made up with the latest NPAS news, especially when they havent had to fund the new Cleveland a/c which they will be using in 2012
in 2009 McLuckie wouldnt agree to the other 2 NEASU consortium forces plans for one a/c, as they said that there wasnt a need for 2 a/c in the consortium area. Councillor McLuckie demanded the spare a/c for his own force use, but now he mentions that that further cuts may be made in light of the latest Home Office funding cuts.
Cleveland is one of the smallest counties in England and McLuckie fought the last governments attempt to amalgamate the Cleveland force with the Northumbria and Durham forces.
He appears to be very worried councillor on his CPA website spouting about the latest plans for the new police commisionaires who will be paid £120k pa, even though McLuckie and his fellow Cleveland authority councillors claimed over £200k in expenses in Cleveland last year! Its only tax payers money after all isnt it
An assumption on my part.... thought that the controller might want to see what he was doing!
Then of course... thinking about it..... why start now?
Then of course... thinking about it..... why start now?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
PA;
Pssst, these days they also let ladies be in charge!
A bit of recent Policing news for PANews
Anyhoo, just how many screens is this control room going to have? 23!
There's another few thousand squids to be spent in the name of savings.
Besides, is the NPAS controller going to control all these incidents at once? Are you saying that nationally we could perhaps cope with a few garden searches and other such tasks going on at the same time, but there will only be the capacity to handle one pursuit nationally at any one time!
Perhaps each force should control its own tasking, using the control rooms, controllers and screens they already have!
...thought that the controller might want to see what he was doing!
A bit of recent Policing news for PANews
Anyhoo, just how many screens is this control room going to have? 23!
There's another few thousand squids to be spent in the name of savings.
Besides, is the NPAS controller going to control all these incidents at once? Are you saying that nationally we could perhaps cope with a few garden searches and other such tasks going on at the same time, but there will only be the capacity to handle one pursuit nationally at any one time!
Perhaps each force should control its own tasking, using the control rooms, controllers and screens they already have!
I knew it would all go wrong when they started letting in female sergeants back in the 60's!
And I bet you are one of those silly sods that pull up the merest slip of the tongue when some one doesn't address The Chair rather than the ancient post of Chairman. Chairwoman if apropriate by gender and and in the right context i.e. who is to be voted into the 'chair' is ok as well but I still do not address furniture.
Fair point ..... but I will do it again.....
Back to the real point....
I guess none of us know the answer to the question but the tongue in cheek reply assumes that the BTP control room [that adds just onother delaying layer into the call out times] will not have the capacity to take downlink at the moment and that raises the question of whether they [the untrained in the ways of air support] will be having an over view of the subject they are controlling .... in which case one receiver/screen for each aircraft assuming all are aloft at the same time on occasion?
Another problem may arise. I am not sure quite where the hierarchy sit in all of this in BTP, but they may need a few more ACPO's trained in air support if the tale I heard of Scotland is anywhere near widespread.
As we know air support is pretty much a constable and sergeant task.... and therein lies the knowledge. In keeping with its own code of practice a certain English force made the mistake of sending just a very able sergeant to liaise with the Scottish police control room for a major event where they were using a helicopter for pretty much the first time in years.
When the action started the sergeant wanted the main screens switched on so he asked the officers around him to do just that. They 'refused' because the man in charge of the control room had not told them they could. So said sergeant went straight over to the ACC in charge [as he was used to in his home force] and tried to speak to him. All he wanted on was the screens. But he did not have the right pay grade to speak directly to an ACC and the bloke refused to speak to him. The screens were never put on in time and the s*** unnecessarily hit the fan on the streets.
This was a handful of years ago but I doubt it has changed greatly, and only operational pressure as found in dealing with major events changes it. Are BTP senior staff up to being told what to do by those that know as opposed tto based on pay grade?
Similarly where now the direct calling of the helicopter by the man on the street? I was doing that [not always accepted of course] 25 years ago. Is this facility now to be lost? Is UK air support going to degrade to a standard that most European forces admire but have yet to get their head around?
Bah!
And I bet you are one of those silly sods that pull up the merest slip of the tongue when some one doesn't address The Chair rather than the ancient post of Chairman. Chairwoman if apropriate by gender and and in the right context i.e. who is to be voted into the 'chair' is ok as well but I still do not address furniture.
Fair point ..... but I will do it again.....
Back to the real point....
I guess none of us know the answer to the question but the tongue in cheek reply assumes that the BTP control room [that adds just onother delaying layer into the call out times] will not have the capacity to take downlink at the moment and that raises the question of whether they [the untrained in the ways of air support] will be having an over view of the subject they are controlling .... in which case one receiver/screen for each aircraft assuming all are aloft at the same time on occasion?
Another problem may arise. I am not sure quite where the hierarchy sit in all of this in BTP, but they may need a few more ACPO's trained in air support if the tale I heard of Scotland is anywhere near widespread.
As we know air support is pretty much a constable and sergeant task.... and therein lies the knowledge. In keeping with its own code of practice a certain English force made the mistake of sending just a very able sergeant to liaise with the Scottish police control room for a major event where they were using a helicopter for pretty much the first time in years.
When the action started the sergeant wanted the main screens switched on so he asked the officers around him to do just that. They 'refused' because the man in charge of the control room had not told them they could. So said sergeant went straight over to the ACC in charge [as he was used to in his home force] and tried to speak to him. All he wanted on was the screens. But he did not have the right pay grade to speak directly to an ACC and the bloke refused to speak to him. The screens were never put on in time and the s*** unnecessarily hit the fan on the streets.
This was a handful of years ago but I doubt it has changed greatly, and only operational pressure as found in dealing with major events changes it. Are BTP senior staff up to being told what to do by those that know as opposed tto based on pay grade?
Similarly where now the direct calling of the helicopter by the man on the street? I was doing that [not always accepted of course] 25 years ago. Is this facility now to be lost? Is UK air support going to degrade to a standard that most European forces admire but have yet to get their head around?
Bah!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Can we just tidy up a little detail please.
Is this 'BTP Control Room' a product of NPAS or something this thread has invented during the fog of rumouric discussion, that appears to have been taken as now being part of 'The Plan'.
Is this 'BTP Control Room' a product of NPAS or something this thread has invented during the fog of rumouric discussion, that appears to have been taken as now being part of 'The Plan'.
When you asked that I did briefly think "Lummy is that for real or was it a by product of 'information'....." 
Fear not... I went back into my file system and there it was produced by ACPO/NPIA..... 20 questions for Doubting Thomas'..... the one you want says....
Who will manage the service/ act as command and control?
The service will be delivered by a national organisation. At present NPIA are assisting with the implementation of the project and work is ongoing to establish the eventual host organisation. In terms of the central dispatch function, this is yet to be decided. However, the project team have set up a workstream in association with British Transport Police to establish a single point of contact for Aircraft dispatch within BTP control rooms. This work is at an early stage but full proposals will be put to the Air Service Project Board in early 2011.
So, like everything in this thread it is the plan but it is a moveable feast and there remains an outside chance that the national control room of Tesco Supermarkets will actually get the job!
Fear not...
I went back into my file system and there it was produced by ACPO/NPIA..... 20 questions for Doubting Thomas'..... the one you want says....Who will manage the service/ act as command and control?
The service will be delivered by a national organisation. At present NPIA are assisting with the implementation of the project and work is ongoing to establish the eventual host organisation. In terms of the central dispatch function, this is yet to be decided. However, the project team have set up a workstream in association with British Transport Police to establish a single point of contact for Aircraft dispatch within BTP control rooms. This work is at an early stage but full proposals will be put to the Air Service Project Board in early 2011.
So, like everything in this thread it is the plan but it is a moveable feast and there remains an outside chance that the national control room of Tesco Supermarkets will actually get the job!
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Why will NPAS Control need to be wired for downlink?
Having some knowledge of how a border less system works there is no need for the Aircraft dispatcher to be involved in watching whats going on.
On the other hand the local user may want a downlink, that becomes their decision and will come down to compatibility of equipment. The fun part!
Having some knowledge of how a border less system works there is no need for the Aircraft dispatcher to be involved in watching whats going on.
On the other hand the local user may want a downlink, that becomes their decision and will come down to compatibility of equipment. The fun part!
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As I understand it, downlink uses microwave technology and it is line of site. So how will one place in the UK, BTP control room, receive all the transmitted footage from around the country? Or is each police control room / station going to be fitted with receivers?