UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Well if 'Tesco' get the job there will be no need of course but if it is given to a police C&C they will need some access to what the fleet is up to.
All existing operations and the police HQ have RX/TX... it is just that they are not all the same.... if they are the same it is relatively easy [with lots of money] to link them all. Pretty sure London requires three send/receive aerials to service its own needs so lots of gear required or needing changes UK wide.
That is just two of the million imponderables this plan has thrown up.
Somewhere there will need to be a central command even if it is an office on the Isle of Skye.
They might invent a post.... how about a NPAS Police Aviation Commander [ya know the Home Office Police Aviation Advisor renamed, it is /was the long standing proven post with some knowledge of the subject] and so he/she can talk to a Commander anywhere and get an answer he/she will be an ACPO rank with no knowledge of the subject with another ACPO rank to pick up the phone, an inspector to write the reports and a sergeant and constable with knowledge of the subject to tell them all what to do.
All existing operations and the police HQ have RX/TX... it is just that they are not all the same.... if they are the same it is relatively easy [with lots of money] to link them all. Pretty sure London requires three send/receive aerials to service its own needs so lots of gear required or needing changes UK wide.
That is just two of the million imponderables this plan has thrown up.
Somewhere there will need to be a central command even if it is an office on the Isle of Skye.
They might invent a post.... how about a NPAS Police Aviation Commander [ya know the Home Office Police Aviation Advisor renamed, it is /was the long standing proven post with some knowledge of the subject] and so he/she can talk to a Commander anywhere and get an answer he/she will be an ACPO rank with no knowledge of the subject with another ACPO rank to pick up the phone, an inspector to write the reports and a sergeant and constable with knowledge of the subject to tell them all what to do.
Last edited by PANews; 29th Dec 2010 at 11:03. Reason: Adding Fly for Fun question....
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No doubt there will be another "Workstream" to sort it all this out,
and no doubt they will consider that, at present,
different forces have different Downlinking / Uplinking requirements,
and have purchased their existing "kit" accordingly.
Some forces with the latest aircraft ( like the ECUK common Police spec 135 - which is kitted out with a Transmitter and Receiver
from the (current) preferred provider of digital microwave equipment ), have gone for Force receiver(s) {Downlink from aircraft}
AND transmitter(s) {Uplink to aircraft}, whereas others have only got Downlink {from aircraft} capability.
Those with Downlink only - who operate in a consortium or region, or receive "Mutual Aid" air support,
have probably had to come up with a method of utilising the limited number of available Channels (frequencies),
and SOP's to utilise the various encryption codes, to ensure that whichever aircraft is deployed on their force area,
downlinked imagery is available in their Control Room ( and maybe elsewhere ).
There are limitations on how far ( distance ) the aircraft can transmit downlinked imagery,
or receive uplinked imagery / data, and it may well be that if there is an NPAS requirement
to have such Imagery available in the National Control Room, ( wherever it is eventually located ),
then a whole new pack of crayons will have to be deployed to draw some more circles on a map,
to work out where to install the new receiving / transmitting sites.
( 6 inch diameter on a half-mil for Downlinking should do the trick
)
While the cost of crayons and maps are relatively cheap,
how much (more) would it cost to set up such a National Network of receivers and transmitters,
to ensure that everyone who needs to an access the imagery / data gets it ??
Wonder what else hasn't really been thought through yet
and no doubt they will consider that, at present,
different forces have different Downlinking / Uplinking requirements,
and have purchased their existing "kit" accordingly.
Some forces with the latest aircraft ( like the ECUK common Police spec 135 - which is kitted out with a Transmitter and Receiver
from the (current) preferred provider of digital microwave equipment ), have gone for Force receiver(s) {Downlink from aircraft}
AND transmitter(s) {Uplink to aircraft}, whereas others have only got Downlink {from aircraft} capability.
Those with Downlink only - who operate in a consortium or region, or receive "Mutual Aid" air support,
have probably had to come up with a method of utilising the limited number of available Channels (frequencies),
and SOP's to utilise the various encryption codes, to ensure that whichever aircraft is deployed on their force area,
downlinked imagery is available in their Control Room ( and maybe elsewhere ).
There are limitations on how far ( distance ) the aircraft can transmit downlinked imagery,
or receive uplinked imagery / data, and it may well be that if there is an NPAS requirement
to have such Imagery available in the National Control Room, ( wherever it is eventually located ),
then a whole new pack of crayons will have to be deployed to draw some more circles on a map,
to work out where to install the new receiving / transmitting sites.
( 6 inch diameter on a half-mil for Downlinking should do the trick
)While the cost of crayons and maps are relatively cheap,
how much (more) would it cost to set up such a National Network of receivers and transmitters,
to ensure that everyone who needs to an access the imagery / data gets it ??
Wonder what else hasn't really been thought through yet
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Thanks for that PAN. 
I have found a reference here;
New service to provide police helicopters - Manchester News
Does that mean that BTP will now have national access to the Police Helicopters? Well, at least they will save money by not having to hire a 355.
If they think that doing more with less is achievable, why don't we go totally hatstand and also take on National Grid tasking and maybe even hire ourselves out for immediate tasks? Who knows, Brides may never be late for the wedding due to traffic, snow or breakdowns again
I have found a reference here;
New service to provide police helicopters - Manchester News
British Transport Police will be in charge of the service's command and control structure and there will also be a clear "user requirement" laid out, meaning flights - which cost around £2,000 per hour - will be approved only if they are necessary.
If they think that doing more with less is achievable, why don't we go totally hatstand and also take on National Grid tasking and maybe even hire ourselves out for immediate tasks? Who knows, Brides may never be late for the wedding due to traffic, snow or breakdowns again
I suspect that BTP have not had air support since Jarvis went to the wall... it was their helicopter and largesse that provided the lions share of the police air time. As most of that was PR stunt use for the BBC and ITV news I do not hold their 'experience' in high regard.
There is another item in that Manchester paper of interest.
They quote the officer from Hampshire Federation as stating his confidence in 'the service ..... won't be badly affected.... reducing from three to two aircraft ...... diminished..... adequate but [not the] Rolls-Royce service we've been used to.'
Bear in mind that the three aircraft we are talking about as producing the Rolls Royce service were not actually particularly active.... the now deleted Hampshire fixed wing was a bit of a fair weather friend and both it and Sussex have not been over busy. I do not have the numbers but I believe well below 1,000pa each.
There may be grounds to state that their service might improve slightly with two fully funded aircraft flying to capacity .... 1,200 hours per year each.... but I think even before Sussex is deleted that just will not happen. After Sussex is deleted the remaining Surrey aircraft will be physically unable to give the three counties full service to even current expectations.
This may be reflected in many areas across the country leaving the busy aircraft [1,200+ pa] still busy but the sluggards remaining unfunded through 2012. Probably beyond because of contracts.
There is another item in that Manchester paper of interest.
They quote the officer from Hampshire Federation as stating his confidence in 'the service ..... won't be badly affected.... reducing from three to two aircraft ...... diminished..... adequate but [not the] Rolls-Royce service we've been used to.'
Bear in mind that the three aircraft we are talking about as producing the Rolls Royce service were not actually particularly active.... the now deleted Hampshire fixed wing was a bit of a fair weather friend and both it and Sussex have not been over busy. I do not have the numbers but I believe well below 1,000pa each.
There may be grounds to state that their service might improve slightly with two fully funded aircraft flying to capacity .... 1,200 hours per year each.... but I think even before Sussex is deleted that just will not happen. After Sussex is deleted the remaining Surrey aircraft will be physically unable to give the three counties full service to even current expectations.
This may be reflected in many areas across the country leaving the busy aircraft [1,200+ pa] still busy but the sluggards remaining unfunded through 2012. Probably beyond because of contracts.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Not forgetting, live coverage of fottie matches, live "Police Camera, Acton", live Sky news coverage, the list is endless. 
Smoke and Mirrors
The problem here is that very senior people have fallen into the trap of using "political smoke & mirrors" when they attempt to promote the new regime
One example that I read recently, involved a Chief Constable, who was trying to explain to all and sundry, that the new arrangements for air support would actually provide a better service than that they currently enjoyed. "It was", he explained, "because in future, they would no longer have to rely on their one machine, but could then call on the services of other machines in the region when their's was unavailable".
Strictly speaking that was a true statement, - (in Political speak). But what he neglected to say was that by the time the "duty" machine arrived from the other side of the region, the incident would be over, everyone had gone home, and the machine now needed refueling before it could go back to its base!
I dispare! Whenever will these Senior Officers and their bean counters, realise that this sort of Bu****it, just will not wash today? The public and the rank and file of the Police Service in general, are both far more aware of the real position facing us, to be taken in by such shallow arguements
NPAS and its promotors must understand and accept, that the public realise that we are experiencing difficult times and that savings have to be made. If the need for such savings are properly explained, and that the aircraft being withdrawn are the ones with the lowest demand profile, then they might accept the consequential reduction in service. Sadly the current proposals fell far short of any such logicality, and the current turbulance is a direct result of that failure.
I repeat, we can work with the truth, but the use of smoke & mirrors just gets people grumpy!
UK Police Air Support has always been a lesson to others in mutual co-operation and demonstrated a desire to back each other up. Therefore the decision to "sell" NPAS on the advantages of borderless policing, was simply a red herring, for it happened in air support circles anyway.
So come on NPAS. - Acknowledge the hard graft that the current units have demonstrated; - express regret that the current financial state of the Country is forcing some awkward decisions to be made. Stop this political spin rubbish of trying to sell the proposals as being an improvent in cover. - It simply just isn't! Untill you accept that, it will be difficult to get anyone to believe you, and the lack of real progress will continue. That will benifit no - one, except perhaps the common enemy, - the criminal.
The service has always been good at making the best of a bad situation, but this one requires leadership! Leadership from a position of KNOWLEDGE & STRENGTH. Then people will follow, and make the best of it.
We can make it work!
Tigerfish
One example that I read recently, involved a Chief Constable, who was trying to explain to all and sundry, that the new arrangements for air support would actually provide a better service than that they currently enjoyed. "It was", he explained, "because in future, they would no longer have to rely on their one machine, but could then call on the services of other machines in the region when their's was unavailable".
Strictly speaking that was a true statement, - (in Political speak). But what he neglected to say was that by the time the "duty" machine arrived from the other side of the region, the incident would be over, everyone had gone home, and the machine now needed refueling before it could go back to its base!
I dispare! Whenever will these Senior Officers and their bean counters, realise that this sort of Bu****it, just will not wash today? The public and the rank and file of the Police Service in general, are both far more aware of the real position facing us, to be taken in by such shallow arguements
NPAS and its promotors must understand and accept, that the public realise that we are experiencing difficult times and that savings have to be made. If the need for such savings are properly explained, and that the aircraft being withdrawn are the ones with the lowest demand profile, then they might accept the consequential reduction in service. Sadly the current proposals fell far short of any such logicality, and the current turbulance is a direct result of that failure.
I repeat, we can work with the truth, but the use of smoke & mirrors just gets people grumpy!
UK Police Air Support has always been a lesson to others in mutual co-operation and demonstrated a desire to back each other up. Therefore the decision to "sell" NPAS on the advantages of borderless policing, was simply a red herring, for it happened in air support circles anyway.
So come on NPAS. - Acknowledge the hard graft that the current units have demonstrated; - express regret that the current financial state of the Country is forcing some awkward decisions to be made. Stop this political spin rubbish of trying to sell the proposals as being an improvent in cover. - It simply just isn't! Untill you accept that, it will be difficult to get anyone to believe you, and the lack of real progress will continue. That will benifit no - one, except perhaps the common enemy, - the criminal.
The service has always been good at making the best of a bad situation, but this one requires leadership! Leadership from a position of KNOWLEDGE & STRENGTH. Then people will follow, and make the best of it.
We can make it work!
Tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 29th Dec 2010 at 23:54. Reason: general improvements
Brilliant Stuff, your comment that 'downlinked video can be fed through the intranet or the internet' leaves me in a void brought on by age....
Never had such a thing in my time still pretty much pen and paper still... but I thought that these Intranet networks were force wide rather than national... am I wrong?
Never had such a thing in my time still pretty much pen and paper still... but I thought that these Intranet networks were force wide rather than national... am I wrong?
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I thought that these Intranet networks were force wide rather than national... am I wrong?
Other forces, and the aircraft dispatch are not required to view whats going on.
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PAnews
The chaps across the water in either Norway or Finland they had shown us here in Blighty in our office how they can see the downlink footage through the internet. Cool.
As fro HighDef or SD they come in both flavours but if there is a need for HighDef now that is another question.
The chaps across the water in either Norway or Finland they had shown us here in Blighty in our office how they can see the downlink footage through the internet. Cool.
As fro HighDef or SD they come in both flavours but if there is a need for HighDef now that is another question.
I am not disputing that Internet and Intranet is possible, it was just that my understanding was that the [secure?] Intranet tends to be forcewide rather than national and the [more public] Internet runs into security problems. Everyone is arguing over the Brand X encription rather than Brand Y and its being proposed [here - but on behalf of the Dream Team!] to stick it on either public broadband ..... or build a secure highway for it....
Moving both into a situation whereby a central National Coordination Centre could share and control 20 bases from the hypothetical BTP HQ would in itself create a nifghtmare in logistics and [as we return to time again] ... costs that have not apparently been allowed for.
That takes us back to the earlier suggestion by someone on Rotorheads that what exists be Nationised and then the linking be done afterwards. after all 2012 may be the date but some of those contracts do not finish until 2014. I see from Dyfed-Powys that they have tenure on their new ASU building into 2010 and clauses that mean it cannot be a cow shed any time soon ..... there will be others so 2012 will mean little to a lot of the infrastructure.
Moving both into a situation whereby a central National Coordination Centre could share and control 20 bases from the hypothetical BTP HQ would in itself create a nifghtmare in logistics and [as we return to time again] ... costs that have not apparently been allowed for.
That takes us back to the earlier suggestion by someone on Rotorheads that what exists be Nationised and then the linking be done afterwards. after all 2012 may be the date but some of those contracts do not finish until 2014. I see from Dyfed-Powys that they have tenure on their new ASU building into 2010 and clauses that mean it cannot be a cow shed any time soon ..... there will be others so 2012 will mean little to a lot of the infrastructure.
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There will be no need for a national network as incidents are the responsibility of local forces, always have been . Air ops will be in support of forces not controlling jobs, therefore no need for a national network. We don't down link to our base now, why would that change?
Some units do downlink to their base so at present all options are available to the new management. I guess we simply do not yet know what NPAS would desire so are left second guessing.
There is the option that they might yet take over wider air assets with other needs and aspirations. Heaven forbid with the ongoing confusion and a clear desire of the military to get out of that market they might end up running SAR!!!!
There is the option that they might yet take over wider air assets with other needs and aspirations. Heaven forbid with the ongoing confusion and a clear desire of the military to get out of that market they might end up running SAR!!!!
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New contracts
Rumours doing the rounds at Staverton.
A PAS directors contract was recently terminated and is listed in the following "companies house" reports on their web page.
The PAS listing shows the most information.
Is "PAS's owner" Joep starting to cut his losses with the latest ASU contract news, or is something else going on in his empire with the departure of this director?
Direct employment under NPAS may be not that far away after all.
POLICE AVIATION SERVICES LIMITED of GL51 6SS in CHELTENHAM GLOUCESTERSHIRE
http://directors.mapofpower.com/companies/02799272
SPECIALIST AVIATION SERVICES LIMITED of GL51 6SS in CHELTENHAM GLOUCESTERSHIRE
A PAS directors contract was recently terminated and is listed in the following "companies house" reports on their web page.
The PAS listing shows the most information.
Is "PAS's owner" Joep starting to cut his losses with the latest ASU contract news, or is something else going on in his empire with the departure of this director?
Direct employment under NPAS may be not that far away after all.
POLICE AVIATION SERVICES LIMITED of GL51 6SS in CHELTENHAM GLOUCESTERSHIRE
http://directors.mapofpower.com/companies/02799272
SPECIALIST AVIATION SERVICES LIMITED of GL51 6SS in CHELTENHAM GLOUCESTERSHIRE
Last edited by wright123; 3rd Jan 2011 at 14:41. Reason: director listings
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Perhaps the answer is to make a control room that is already used to operating multiple aircraft at the same time, a bit more of the plan.
Maybe somewhere where the real estate is already available and can more conveniently be expanded to accomodate the needs of a national plan.
Helicopter_crew_never_tires_of_catching_bad_guys
It seems that the national plan is already operating in a smaller version in the Met, did anyone actually consult their opinion, or as it was clear they weren't going to be part of any national plan, they were left alone. Surely they are the leaders in any advancement of Police Aviation in this country.
With this BTP controlling of NPAS, how many staff will need to be employed in the new setup ?$£?
After all, for just one force and 1-3 aircraft the Mets team is "made up of 18 police constables, three police sergeants and is supervised on a local level by a police inspector. It also employs police staff including pilots, operations room staff, engineers and an intelligence officer."
How much more controlling staff would be needed? Of course it would also be convenient to have the experience of present controllers to hand.
Could we utilise the accommodation for servicing of aircraft, using Met/NPAS employed engineers?
Base the spare ac where the engineering work will be carried out, drop off/pick up service point!
Somewhere nice across the road for a 'soup in a basket' pub lunch.
Seems Lippitts could be a solution to a load of potential hurdles.
I love the article when it says; "Fighting crime from 10,000 feet is a job London’s Met police helicopter crew never grow tired of...
...but it is the pilots, who often have RAF or Royal Navy backgrounds, who have to deal with the delicate task of negotiating tower blocks while listening to six radio stations and various instructions."
Maybe somewhere where the real estate is already available and can more conveniently be expanded to accomodate the needs of a national plan.
Helicopter_crew_never_tires_of_catching_bad_guys
It seems that the national plan is already operating in a smaller version in the Met, did anyone actually consult their opinion, or as it was clear they weren't going to be part of any national plan, they were left alone. Surely they are the leaders in any advancement of Police Aviation in this country.
With this BTP controlling of NPAS, how many staff will need to be employed in the new setup ?$£?
After all, for just one force and 1-3 aircraft the Mets team is "made up of 18 police constables, three police sergeants and is supervised on a local level by a police inspector. It also employs police staff including pilots, operations room staff, engineers and an intelligence officer."
How much more controlling staff would be needed? Of course it would also be convenient to have the experience of present controllers to hand.
Could we utilise the accommodation for servicing of aircraft, using Met/NPAS employed engineers?
Base the spare ac where the engineering work will be carried out, drop off/pick up service point!
Somewhere nice across the road for a 'soup in a basket' pub lunch.
Seems Lippitts could be a solution to a load of potential hurdles.
I love the article when it says; "Fighting crime from 10,000 feet is a job London’s Met police helicopter crew never grow tired of...
...but it is the pilots, who often have RAF or Royal Navy backgrounds, who have to deal with the delicate task of negotiating tower blocks while listening to six radio stations and various instructions."
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How many tower blocks are there at 10,000ft in London
The Met are not the only force with their own Engineering. Eastern Counties Police Maintenance also have three aircraft they look after, not beyond possibility that they could accommodate the spare aircraft for the south east 135 region and carryout the engineering for the area??
Worth considering!
yme
No word at all on maintenance, but it looks to be thinking in obscure 'other directions...' the plan moved the Suffolk aircraft from its current base a few miles up the road.... so if said plan had any ideas in retaining that Eastern Counties menders facility it is apparently not on....
Devon & Cornwall appear nailed down to looking after the Devon AA 135 for a few years but not necessarily their own 145!
The SS plan that envisages expansion at Lippitts would come a cropper with the neighbours..... they definitely do not like operations there. They got rid of the dogs [they barked], the guns [they went pop] and that interference saw most of the place shut down except the helicopters. As you may know the ASU thought of retreating to Northolt but that did not work out.
Plenty of space there and 145 engineers but I think those neighbours would even stop even an temporary Olympic event step up in capability.
With a bit of luck
if the neighbours get the ASU out (and they are about the last occupants of this once thriving site) they will pay the price and find it is occupied by temporary caravan club members that Surrey ASU got on so well with ..... 
No word at all on maintenance, but it looks to be thinking in obscure 'other directions...' the plan moved the Suffolk aircraft from its current base a few miles up the road.... so if said plan had any ideas in retaining that Eastern Counties menders facility it is apparently not on....
Devon & Cornwall appear nailed down to looking after the Devon AA 135 for a few years but not necessarily their own 145!
The SS plan that envisages expansion at Lippitts would come a cropper with the neighbours..... they definitely do not like operations there. They got rid of the dogs [they barked], the guns [they went pop] and that interference saw most of the place shut down except the helicopters. As you may know the ASU thought of retreating to Northolt but that did not work out.
Plenty of space there and 145 engineers but I think those neighbours would even stop even an temporary Olympic event step up in capability.
With a bit of luck
if the neighbours get the ASU out (and they are about the last occupants of this once thriving site) they will pay the price and find it is occupied by temporary caravan club members that Surrey ASU got on so well with .....