UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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The truth is out there, and all on tape
Silsoe, it must be different up north then, but I think not, as a lot of forces used to visit the northern lands to see how how air support was done, and the budget allowed for over a thousand hours per year at both northern shire bases. (use them hours or lose them was the word from the UEO)
There are also a lot of hours of video tape (over the years) showing exactly what I mentioned when it came to the final scrum when the runner hit the deck, but hey ho it matters not, the truth is out there and all in a cupboard or two.
I've even witnessed a young chap in cuffs, who managed to let himself out of an unlocked police car, being then cornered in a garden while being watched by me and the crew, only for the young chap to become lunch for an over eager police person with a dog, even though the crim was cornered behind a shed! That was all recorded on tape with sound as the cop had the radio transmit button pressed as he told the dog to have a go! I wonder how much the lad would have got if he'd got a copy of that tape!
NPAS is the way to go and lets hope everyone can use air support WHEN they need it.
Do Strathclyde still work half the day? it made sense to a few of us at the time.
There are also a lot of hours of video tape (over the years) showing exactly what I mentioned when it came to the final scrum when the runner hit the deck, but hey ho it matters not, the truth is out there and all in a cupboard or two.
I've even witnessed a young chap in cuffs, who managed to let himself out of an unlocked police car, being then cornered in a garden while being watched by me and the crew, only for the young chap to become lunch for an over eager police person with a dog, even though the crim was cornered behind a shed! That was all recorded on tape with sound as the cop had the radio transmit button pressed as he told the dog to have a go! I wonder how much the lad would have got if he'd got a copy of that tape!
NPAS is the way to go and lets hope everyone can use air support WHEN they need it.
Do Strathclyde still work half the day? it made sense to a few of us at the time.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Props;
Yet things were learnt from up north that made other units do things differently. What does that tell us?
Diffferent units, different areas of operation, different SOPs developed. We all learn from each other, but you cannot apply rural area operating methods to urban. Wouldn't it be silly, for example, to base a National Police Aviation plan on how rural forces operate and not find out how things are done in 'the smoke'?
I think we have a similar incident to yours, but on DVD
Totally agree with your NPAS statement, aviation where and when it is needed.
Silsoe, it must be different up north then, but I think not, as a lot of forces used to visit the northern lands to see how how air support was done,
Diffferent units, different areas of operation, different SOPs developed. We all learn from each other, but you cannot apply rural area operating methods to urban. Wouldn't it be silly, for example, to base a National Police Aviation plan on how rural forces operate and not find out how things are done in 'the smoke'?
I think we have a similar incident to yours, but on DVD
Totally agree with your NPAS statement, aviation where and when it is needed.
Avoid imitations
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I think Phil Space has possibly broken all records for the most uninformed and bigoted tosh ever posted on Rotorheads.
Well done, keep it up, very amusing.
P.S. Please tell us all, in your ultimate wisdom, how you do this:
Well done, keep it up, very amusing.
P.S. Please tell us all, in your ultimate wisdom, how you do this:
Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Phil,
I understand your upset about public sector pilots. I honestly don't want to seem patronising, but I can see that you are upset because your (and our) tax money pays for other more qualified and experienced pilots than yourself to fly publicly funded aircraft.
You seem to be under the impression that all police pilots are ex-mil. This simply is not the case and if you want a champion for 'civil' police pilots, I'm your man. (Our unit is 50/50 ex-mil/civ line pilots) You must understand that we all got to the same place by different paths, by gaining different but no less important experiences. None of these paths were easy and we all had to go through a whole load of varying depth shoite to get here.
Can you define your definition of flying alone please. Is it actually alone in the ac by yourself or solo with pax? And how much more difficult is it to fly across the Bahamas if you're paying for it, than if its free or even if you're getting paid for it?
You may well think that we are on a cushy number, but it's the experiences that we have all had in the past that make it seem that way. At no stage are we less attentive to things such as flight safety, rules/regs, CRM etc and don't be mislead into thinking we dont realise how fortunate we are to be doing this job and just how good it is. However, when the job takes a surprising turn, the days of things slightly more taxing than a pre-planned flight from Wales to Jersey at night VFR in a single engined ac come into their own.
You may well say, "Flying a turbine helicopter or single engine turboprop is a piece of cake" but don't forget that anyone has the ability to fly themselves into trouble, it's the not getting there in the first place that counts. However, should you end up there, it's then the experience and training that helps you resolve the situation.
I understand your upset about public sector pilots. I honestly don't want to seem patronising, but I can see that you are upset because your (and our) tax money pays for other more qualified and experienced pilots than yourself to fly publicly funded aircraft.
You seem to be under the impression that all police pilots are ex-mil. This simply is not the case and if you want a champion for 'civil' police pilots, I'm your man. (Our unit is 50/50 ex-mil/civ line pilots) You must understand that we all got to the same place by different paths, by gaining different but no less important experiences. None of these paths were easy and we all had to go through a whole load of varying depth shoite to get here.
Can you define your definition of flying alone please. Is it actually alone in the ac by yourself or solo with pax? And how much more difficult is it to fly across the Bahamas if you're paying for it, than if its free or even if you're getting paid for it?
You may well think that we are on a cushy number, but it's the experiences that we have all had in the past that make it seem that way. At no stage are we less attentive to things such as flight safety, rules/regs, CRM etc and don't be mislead into thinking we dont realise how fortunate we are to be doing this job and just how good it is. However, when the job takes a surprising turn, the days of things slightly more taxing than a pre-planned flight from Wales to Jersey at night VFR in a single engined ac come into their own.
You may well say, "Flying a turbine helicopter or single engine turboprop is a piece of cake" but don't forget that anyone has the ability to fly themselves into trouble, it's the not getting there in the first place that counts. However, should you end up there, it's then the experience and training that helps you resolve the situation.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I just want to get this straight;
Phil Space
The latest up to date kit....now, I wonder what that would include
3 letters beginning with....
Phil Space
Rubbish. You are not flying alone and probably have never had to since you soloed.
Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night or across the Bahamas and paying for it SS and I think you find out what a cushy number you are on with the latest up to date kit.
Try flying a single engine aircraft VFR from Wales to Jersey at night or across the Bahamas and paying for it SS and I think you find out what a cushy number you are on with the latest up to date kit.
3 letters beginning with....
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"I got it from the figures quoted 3 or 4 posts ago by Ye Olde Pilot.
£2345 per flying hour plus I've added £150 an hour for non direct costs
such as the police observer and admin. "
Excellent work that's two of you who don't know what you're talking about
£2345 per flying hour plus I've added £150 an hour for non direct costs
such as the police observer and admin. "
Excellent work that's two of you who don't know what you're talking about
Yes we all know they helicopter costs money and for those involved we all know how it can be effective and what it can do....For the non believers if the helicopter does nothing else except for misper it will pay for it's self in no time. For every dead body found by the police that has to have an investigation for the coroner to work out why, the cost to the tax payer is 1 million pounds.
So if the police helicopter finds 6 people that would have died it's paid for its self. If you cut the number of choppers expecting to increase the number of boots on streets. It won't take long for the money to run out when the mispers don't get found. (just ask warms police when they gave up the motorway)
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Not been on this thread for a while but had to thank Phil for some amusement in these dark days...
Phil I congratulate you on your posts, I thought all good British Comics had died, but no your there with some great wind up comments
I did a bit of research on the internet and is this you??
I sense you may have been a failed helicopter pilot not able to get into HEMS work?
Maybe this is the reason your jealous??
Anyway Phil your fan club grows. My missus bought me two tickets to see Peter Kay , sadly her 90 squid is now in the gurbby hands of an internet ticket scam. I am at loss for a good laugh, you appearing anywhere???
Phil I congratulate you on your posts, I thought all good British Comics had died, but no your there with some great wind up comments
I did a bit of research on the internet and is this you??
I sense you may have been a failed helicopter pilot not able to get into HEMS work?
Maybe this is the reason your jealous??
Anyway Phil your fan club grows. My missus bought me two tickets to see Peter Kay , sadly her 90 squid is now in the gurbby hands of an internet ticket scam. I am at loss for a good laugh, you appearing anywhere???
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Just to add some realism to this thread and for the info of the lurkers who might be interested:
All costs of running our ASU down to the office biro is £1000 per flying hour.
Aviation = the more you fly the cheaper it gets.
All costs of running our ASU down to the office biro is £1000 per flying hour.
Aviation = the more you fly the cheaper it gets.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Ref: Post 1286
Come on Phil;
3 letters beginning with...
#1 - 'A' for Air
#2...
3 letters beginning with...
#1 - 'A' for Air
#2...
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Silsoe
Thanks for posting a reasonable reply unlike some of your more juvenile rants.
Silsoe Sid wrote
I'm not sure how you see that. By qualified do you mean hours or years?
I don't doubt you are a good pilot and work well within the parameters of being a driver but at the end of the day you have no control on where and when you go. You seem to want to slag off private owners and pilots as being 'inferior' aviators.
I am not upset about public sector pilots anymore than other public employees but when it comes to spending other people money its easy to fire up and fly. The various police "Action/Reality' series did not sell the idea of the 'boys enjoying the toys' too well. The Essex police traffic cops with their Subaru's is a case in point. Most cars are not stolen to re-sell but by young yobs trying to get the police traffic units and helicopters involved in a real version of Grand Theft Auto.
And I suppose you look down on private helicopter and fixed wing pilots because you think we have never done that.
I've been flying for 30 years Silsoe (both rotary and fixed wing) in various parts of the world. I've got no argument with how any pilot gets to make a living out of flying but having spent quite a bit of time over the years with both army and RAF I've come to the conclusion the boys in brown often need an extra chip detector for the shoulders. In the 202 Sqn they used to joke about "where do chopper pilots go when they fail....Middle Wallop".
Easy answer there. Commercial pilots never get to choose how why when and where they go. Someone else does that and they do the driving and get paid.
How easy is it to fly alone long distance? Well let me ask you if you have ever flown on your own for 5 or 6 hours where you have chosen when and where to go? Long boring legs across the desert with one engine and no radio contact?
Pre-planned? Do you think private fixed and rotary pilots spend days working out where to go? It's often on a whim and many a time I've just dropped in somewhere for lunch.It might sound nice but UK weather changes quickly as you know.
I can tell you that there is a great deal of risk for a fixed wing pilot flying across the water to Jersey. As for workload try hand flying an instrument approach in a Piper PA32 with a 20 knot crosswind in poor vis in to Jersey at night and a u/s autopilot.
That's for sure but the helicopter offers a lot more escape routes. I learnt on the little piece of sh*t that is called the R22. When I got to fly the B206 it was like driving a nice car. Have you ever flown a rubbish helicopter?
How many hours have you ever flown where you have total control on where and why you go?
Thanks for posting a reasonable reply unlike some of your more juvenile rants.
Silsoe Sid wrote
Phil,
I understand your upset about public sector pilots. I honestly don't want to seem patronising, but I can see that you are upset because your (and our) tax money pays for other more qualified and experienced pilots than yourself to fly publicly funded aircraft.
I understand your upset about public sector pilots. I honestly don't want to seem patronising, but I can see that you are upset because your (and our) tax money pays for other more qualified and experienced pilots than yourself to fly publicly funded aircraft.
I don't doubt you are a good pilot and work well within the parameters of being a driver but at the end of the day you have no control on where and when you go. You seem to want to slag off private owners and pilots as being 'inferior' aviators.
I am not upset about public sector pilots anymore than other public employees but when it comes to spending other people money its easy to fire up and fly. The various police "Action/Reality' series did not sell the idea of the 'boys enjoying the toys' too well. The Essex police traffic cops with their Subaru's is a case in point. Most cars are not stolen to re-sell but by young yobs trying to get the police traffic units and helicopters involved in a real version of Grand Theft Auto.
You seem to be under the impression that all police pilots are ex-mil. This simply is not the case and if you want a champion for 'civil' police pilots, I'm your man. (Our unit is 50/50 ex-mil/civ line pilots) You must understand that we all got to the same place by different paths, by gaining different but no less important experiences. None of these paths were easy and we all had to go through a whole load of varying depth shoite to get here.
I've been flying for 30 years Silsoe (both rotary and fixed wing) in various parts of the world. I've got no argument with how any pilot gets to make a living out of flying but having spent quite a bit of time over the years with both army and RAF I've come to the conclusion the boys in brown often need an extra chip detector for the shoulders. In the 202 Sqn they used to joke about "where do chopper pilots go when they fail....Middle Wallop".
Can you define your definition of flying alone please. Is it actually alone in the ac by yourself or solo with pax? And how much more difficult is it to fly across the Bahamas if you're paying for it, than if its free or even if you're getting paid for it?
How easy is it to fly alone long distance? Well let me ask you if you have ever flown on your own for 5 or 6 hours where you have chosen when and where to go? Long boring legs across the desert with one engine and no radio contact?
You may well think that we are on a cushy number, but it's the experiences that we have all had in the past that make it seem that way. At no stage are we less attentive to things such as flight safety, rules/regs, CRM etc and don't be mislead into thinking we dont realise how fortunate we are to be doing this job and just how good it is. However, when the job takes a surprising turn, the days of things slightly more taxing than a pre-planned flight from Wales to Jersey at night VFR in a single engined ac come into their own.
I can tell you that there is a great deal of risk for a fixed wing pilot flying across the water to Jersey. As for workload try hand flying an instrument approach in a Piper PA32 with a 20 knot crosswind in poor vis in to Jersey at night and a u/s autopilot.
You may well say, "Flying a turbine helicopter or single engine turboprop is a piece of cake" but don't forget that anyone has the ability to fly themselves into trouble, it's the not getting there in the first place that counts. However, should you end up there, it's then the experience and training that helps you resolve the situation.
How many hours have you ever flown where you have total control on where and why you go?
Last edited by Phil Space; 1st Mar 2011 at 07:15.
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Not sure what most of the recent posts have to do with the reduction in Police helicopter numbers, as usual with most threads, this one has descended into envy, ill founded argument, and a total disregard for facts.
I have flown military, private, corporate and police and can attest that flying the EC135 is easier than the R22, teaching air combat on NVG is harder than taking the rich and well heeled from Battersea to Ascot and back, but I know which aircraft is right for for hovering at night at 1500' over some dimly lit farm yard in Norfolk for 40 minutes, and which is more suitable for basic instruction. The basic fact is that we each do what we do with the tools available in each role. If you think any of the Essex ASU guys thought being a part of 'Interceptors' was a good idea then you're on the wrong planet, they took part because those above agreed it, period.
If you think that ASU crews don't know that a lot of what we get deployed to is a complete pile of sh$t then join those on the aforementioned other planet. We do give feedback, but we are employees of a uniformed and disciplined organisation and when a request becomes an order we get on with it even against our strongest advice. None of us enjoy wasting public money but an element of that is sadly built in.
Carry on with the civi-versus-ex-mil pi$$ing contest elseware, while you guys do that those of us actually doing the job night after night will get on with it to the best of our ability until we get the 3 month warning.
Those within UK police aviation will be aware that most units have at least one member as part of a working group, it's slow progress towards full NPAS, but be assured that those at or near the coal face are getting their points to the those at the top before irreversible decisions are implemented.
Regards to all, have a nice day...
I have flown military, private, corporate and police and can attest that flying the EC135 is easier than the R22, teaching air combat on NVG is harder than taking the rich and well heeled from Battersea to Ascot and back, but I know which aircraft is right for for hovering at night at 1500' over some dimly lit farm yard in Norfolk for 40 minutes, and which is more suitable for basic instruction. The basic fact is that we each do what we do with the tools available in each role. If you think any of the Essex ASU guys thought being a part of 'Interceptors' was a good idea then you're on the wrong planet, they took part because those above agreed it, period.
If you think that ASU crews don't know that a lot of what we get deployed to is a complete pile of sh$t then join those on the aforementioned other planet. We do give feedback, but we are employees of a uniformed and disciplined organisation and when a request becomes an order we get on with it even against our strongest advice. None of us enjoy wasting public money but an element of that is sadly built in.
Carry on with the civi-versus-ex-mil pi$$ing contest elseware, while you guys do that those of us actually doing the job night after night will get on with it to the best of our ability until we get the 3 month warning.
Those within UK police aviation will be aware that most units have at least one member as part of a working group, it's slow progress towards full NPAS, but be assured that those at or near the coal face are getting their points to the those at the top before irreversible decisions are implemented.
Regards to all, have a nice day...
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I'm just a person who has paid every single penny for my own helicopter and fixed wing flying over the last 30 years so have an eye on public waste.
I can understand how a few on here are getting wound up but the bottom line is there has to be cuts.
I am not prepared to see the current waste of public money chasing young kids who play a game with the police helicopters and traffic police. The infrastructure
encourages bored kids on council estates to steal cars for the chase.
At least 80% of police air support is a total waste of time when it comes to court and cost v result.
My name is a giveaway about what I do for a living but the bottom line is
none of the traffic or air support unit guys want to go back to pounding the beat.
Sorry but as Eric Pickles has demonstrated this is 2011.
I can understand how a few on here are getting wound up but the bottom line is there has to be cuts.
I am not prepared to see the current waste of public money chasing young kids who play a game with the police helicopters and traffic police. The infrastructure
encourages bored kids on council estates to steal cars for the chase.
At least 80% of police air support is a total waste of time when it comes to court and cost v result.
My name is a giveaway about what I do for a living but the bottom line is
none of the traffic or air support unit guys want to go back to pounding the beat.
Sorry but as Eric Pickles has demonstrated this is 2011.
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You are quite correct in what you say. Most of what the police do in general is a complete waste of time and money but you can blame the courts,government and the human rights act for all that cr@p. If air support was just used for the times when it is effective then it would not cost so much to run. Arse covering is sadly a culture that has grown and at a huge price. Maybe the government should cut some of that rather than budgets and helicopters.
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Thanks Budgie
You say
Traffic police and ASU have been drawn in to this game that bored kids on council estates play.
I doubt there is any police pilot on here that has not been involved in a stolen car chase with youngsters on council estates.
Well let us hope the new strategy will do that.
Looking at the broader picture plod needs size 10's on the beat again with less emphasis on hitting soft targets like motorists.
You say
Most of what the police do in general is a complete waste of time and money but you can blame the courts,government and the human rights act for all that cr@p.
I doubt there is any police pilot on here that has not been involved in a stolen car chase with youngsters on council estates.
If air support was just used for the times when it is effective then it would not cost so much to run.
Looking at the broader picture plod needs size 10's on the beat again with less emphasis on hitting soft targets like motorists.
Phil
You are clearly a reasonably intelligent and hard working chap as you have earned enough to fund your passion for private flying but you are basing your arguments on an entirely spurious set of ideas and notions.
It isn't like the telly, not at all, not even a bit.
80% of it isn't waste.
Everyone knows there have to be cuts.
I don't understand many of your arguments, nobody was trying to say that private aviators were inferior, in fact no-one here gave a toss about private aviators until you brought it up. Nobody here cares if you've flown for 37 hours straight, facing backwards in the baggage compartment with one hand tied behind your back because it has nothing to do with what we were trying to discuss.
Every time you post you make yourself appear stupid - which I am certain you are not - but you are woefully ill informed. It seems to me as though half of your arguments are baseless and the other half are irrelevant; I’m not spoiling for a fight, just trying to explain to you why you are not making any headway here.
You are clearly a reasonably intelligent and hard working chap as you have earned enough to fund your passion for private flying but you are basing your arguments on an entirely spurious set of ideas and notions.
It isn't like the telly, not at all, not even a bit.
80% of it isn't waste.
Everyone knows there have to be cuts.
I don't understand many of your arguments, nobody was trying to say that private aviators were inferior, in fact no-one here gave a toss about private aviators until you brought it up. Nobody here cares if you've flown for 37 hours straight, facing backwards in the baggage compartment with one hand tied behind your back because it has nothing to do with what we were trying to discuss.
Every time you post you make yourself appear stupid - which I am certain you are not - but you are woefully ill informed. It seems to me as though half of your arguments are baseless and the other half are irrelevant; I’m not spoiling for a fight, just trying to explain to you why you are not making any headway here.
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Looking at the broader picture plod needs size 10's on the beat again with less emphasis on hitting soft targets like motorists.
Yeah kids used to chase around in nicked cars. Helicopters stopped that cause every time they did it traffic cops flooded the estates and found them. Now its a different story.
Kids don't nick cars to race around in, they are the bottom of the food pile for crime groups using there skills to their ends. Now the cars get nicked, parked up and if the police don't find them in a few hours with or with out tracking devices then they are out of the country on a boat.
There nicking cars that are far quicker than the crap ford focuses and the police can't all afford fleets of scoobies. So you need to change methods. Even if you do drop in behind a stolen Audi A5 rs quattro if they drive like a loon (and they do) you can't catch them. Hence air support. It must work cause one of the choppers got torched.
Yes your taxes are paying for this,so are mine. But if they don't get caught and the police do something about it then you car insurance will go up. Your house insurance will start asking what cars do you have and that will go up. That is also a tax.