UK Police helicopter budget cuts
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
SP;
The rings are 20 mins (40 Nm) flying time from base, after all the admin has taken place, so therefore from skids off.
Is there an exact criteria from NPAS on the 20 mins?
Budgie;
I see where you're coming from and you may well be right, however, all it takes is an ac to go u/s or for a base to be weathered out (a classic week this week!) and all this coverage goes for a ball of chalk if you dont look at a plan allowing for whatifs and known weather trends. If we were post NPAS plan this week, all of the jobs we have attended and all the arrests and found mispers, would not have been achievable due to the base being fogged in and the areas of crime being clear!
Unit bases having a 20 minute circle is all well and good, but if all the areas of crime are at the extremities of these circles, what use is it when you turn up 5 mins too late?
Picture if you will, keeping in Sheffield and add in N.Mids, West Yorks etc and doesn't it show how little thought has been done in reference to base locations, areas of crime and topography?
Maybe I should do some 10 minute circles later, building up to a national picture.
If I was at base B, I would be certain to have the time on my hands!
The rings are 20 mins (40 Nm) flying time from base, after all the admin has taken place, so therefore from skids off.
Is there an exact criteria from NPAS on the 20 mins?
Budgie;
I see where you're coming from and you may well be right, however, all it takes is an ac to go u/s or for a base to be weathered out (a classic week this week!) and all this coverage goes for a ball of chalk if you dont look at a plan allowing for whatifs and known weather trends. If we were post NPAS plan this week, all of the jobs we have attended and all the arrests and found mispers, would not have been achievable due to the base being fogged in and the areas of crime being clear!
Unit bases having a 20 minute circle is all well and good, but if all the areas of crime are at the extremities of these circles, what use is it when you turn up 5 mins too late?
Picture if you will, keeping in Sheffield and add in N.Mids, West Yorks etc and doesn't it show how little thought has been done in reference to base locations, areas of crime and topography?
Maybe I should do some 10 minute circles later, building up to a national picture.
If I was at base B, I would be certain to have the time on my hands!
Chief Bottle Washer
The plod on the ground would realistically have to add 10 minutes 'sorting time' for tasking from the (expected) National Control, 5 minutes for getting to the aircraft and getting airborne, then the fabled 20 minute ring giving <40nm unless there is a screaming tailwind. Call it 35 minutes best response time for getting a machine 35-40 nm from base.
That'll work: for the crim
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well that sure will be a great way of saving money. Build in as many blocks to performance we can, a time delay, putting aircraft at poor weather locations, all calls must go through a central point who's phone will bound to be engaged. All adds up to the fact that most jobs will not even be worth doing and therefore a massive saving in the budget and my god will the local communities be up in arms when crimes rockets, drive by shooting increase, joy riding restarts. The list is endless.
There is some good news though. The time wasting pr*cks that phone the police to say "i'm going to kill myself" will get a great service.
There is some good news though. The time wasting pr*cks that phone the police to say "i'm going to kill myself" will get a great service.
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Now apply the '20min' circles to the SE region under this 'plan' and then the more realistic real world 10min circles and watch the huge gaps in coverage appear.
Don't include the Met as they are too busy with their local and national commitments.
Don't include the Met as they are too busy with their local and national commitments.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Apparently, the 20 mins is widely interpreted as skids off. 
Looking at the 'future rings, I guess the residents of the quiet little town of Coventry will appreciate the lack of support, being on the extremities of the North, West and East locations.
Coventry crime statistics - Find a Property
Looking at the 'future rings, I guess the residents of the quiet little town of Coventry will appreciate the lack of support, being on the extremities of the North, West and East locations.
The number of violent crimes per 1000 population in this postcode district is greater than both the county and national average.
The number of sexual offences per 1000 population in this postcode district is equal to the county average but greater than the national average.
The number of robberies per 1000 population in this postcode district is less than the county average but greater than the national average.
The number of burglaries per 1000 population in this postcode district is greater than both the county and national average.
The number of thefts of motor vehicles per 1000 population in this postcode district is less than the county average but greater than the national average.
The number of thefts from motor vehicles per 1000 population in this postcode district is less than the county average but greater than the national average.
The number of sexual offences per 1000 population in this postcode district is equal to the county average but greater than the national average.
The number of robberies per 1000 population in this postcode district is less than the county average but greater than the national average.
The number of burglaries per 1000 population in this postcode district is greater than both the county and national average.
The number of thefts of motor vehicles per 1000 population in this postcode district is less than the county average but greater than the national average.
The number of thefts from motor vehicles per 1000 population in this postcode district is less than the county average but greater than the national average.
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20 min Rings
The figures below were published in a NPAS document last month and show the numbers and percentages of the English and Welsh populus who would benefit (?) from the proposed 20 base national model.
15 mins/ 47,313,741 / 87%
20 mins/ 52,567,518 / 97%
25 mins/ 53,613,972 /98%
If the figures above are correct (?) then the jump from 15 mins to 20 mins represents a greater increase than from 20 to 25 mins. I'm assuming that for this reason the 20 min figure represents the optimum.
These figures are based on 120 knots in the cruise and a 2 min takeoff. Would love to know when the clock starts on the take off time. If it's from when the decision to deploy is made they're barking mad. Especially with a lot of units hangaring their aircraft after every flight for security reasons. But then I guess with the bottomless pit of money that NPAS has access to, they'll be able to up the security at each of the 20 bases to the extent that we can leave our aircraft out more often.
15 mins/ 47,313,741 / 87%
20 mins/ 52,567,518 / 97%
25 mins/ 53,613,972 /98%
If the figures above are correct (?) then the jump from 15 mins to 20 mins represents a greater increase than from 20 to 25 mins. I'm assuming that for this reason the 20 min figure represents the optimum.
These figures are based on 120 knots in the cruise and a 2 min takeoff. Would love to know when the clock starts on the take off time. If it's from when the decision to deploy is made they're barking mad. Especially with a lot of units hangaring their aircraft after every flight for security reasons. But then I guess with the bottomless pit of money that NPAS has access to, they'll be able to up the security at each of the 20 bases to the extent that we can leave our aircraft out more often.
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Silsoe, OK you live in a $hit area. But it is not all about high profile crime and Police Camera Action. Their are the more mundane jobs, a vulnerable missing person for example, surely saving life is somewhere near the top of the police priorities? And in the sleepy East of England this is where the real value of police aviation lies. IMHO.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Fly for Fun;
I used Coventry as an example, as it will be on the extremities (20-30 minutes away) of 3 different bases. Not bad for a City with greater rates of crime than the national averages. Ditto that for some areas on the Eastern side of Brum!
Well, to you that type of job may well be mundane, however when we are tasked on one it is taken seriously enough not to simply launch into the air. Considerations such as topping up with fuel, map appreciation, talking to people on the phone, ensuring relevant checks have been done, pinging phones etc etc.
Due to the 'planning' required for a mission like that, to make the search more effective, I think the '20 minutes' is purely arbitrary.
Then of course, you should know that!
I used Coventry as an example, as it will be on the extremities (20-30 minutes away) of 3 different bases. Not bad for a City with greater rates of crime than the national averages. Ditto that for some areas on the Eastern side of Brum!
Their are the more mundane jobs, a vulnerable missing person for example, surely saving life is somewhere near the top of the police priorities?
Due to the 'planning' required for a mission like that, to make the search more effective, I think the '20 minutes' is purely arbitrary.
Then of course, you should know that!
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An observation - Apart from PANews encouraging folks to bring the issues to the attention of those that matter, outside of the NPAS team, I have yet to read in detail what folks have done to try to stop all this happening, i.e wrote to this party, met with so and so, challenged thingy and pointed out the flaws.
I know the forum helps with venting ones feeling.
The other thought is, if the NPAS plan was stopped or drastically changed and units were saved from it, is anyone ready for "cuts" that many CC and PA would have to make due to financial cutbacks.
Some units would inevitably close, Hampshire gone already and Wiltshire would probably go too. There would probably be others. Then there would be the reduction in flying hours, Lancs have had theirs cut, Suffolk has been reduce for a while and many others have cuts pending, at least to their current budget, let alone next years. The smaller forces ASU's will be hit the hardest based upon their smaller PA Budget, the larger forces with "loads a money" will probably be OK.
Reduced flying hours will at some stage lead to the loss of posts or jobs. Then there is the flow of regionalisation, only one UEO required here, only one CP there.
Are folks ready for cuts, whichever way NPAS goes?
I know the forum helps with venting ones feeling.
The other thought is, if the NPAS plan was stopped or drastically changed and units were saved from it, is anyone ready for "cuts" that many CC and PA would have to make due to financial cutbacks.
Some units would inevitably close, Hampshire gone already and Wiltshire would probably go too. There would probably be others. Then there would be the reduction in flying hours, Lancs have had theirs cut, Suffolk has been reduce for a while and many others have cuts pending, at least to their current budget, let alone next years. The smaller forces ASU's will be hit the hardest based upon their smaller PA Budget, the larger forces with "loads a money" will probably be OK.
Reduced flying hours will at some stage lead to the loss of posts or jobs. Then there is the flow of regionalisation, only one UEO required here, only one CP there.
Are folks ready for cuts, whichever way NPAS goes?
Guy's dont get hung up about 15 or 20 minutes.
15 - 20 minutes!
Once again. Do not get hung up on this!
The 15 - 20 minute rule is a EFFECTIVE RANGE issue. It means that after 15 -20 minutes the effective performance of the resource, (in this case the aircraft), becomes markedly reduced. The concept of "skids off" is a total red herring, because once the Criminal has committed the crime,- the clock is running, - or rather he is. If it then takes 10 minutes to deploy the aircraft then you only have 5- 10 minutes to get on task. Those 20 minute range rings are about as effective as a Chocolate fire guard!
That is why the current proposals are so wrong! Why are our major cities, - where the major tasking issues are located, being ignored?
I remain a country bobby at heart, and will always defend the need to provide cover for the rural area's, but even I recognise the need to give rapid support to our city officers, who are increasingly needing our presence.
And I have a feeling in my waters that that last requirement is going to get worse! - & yes, I was serving up north during the miners strike!
Tigerfish
The 15 - 20 minute rule is a EFFECTIVE RANGE issue. It means that after 15 -20 minutes the effective performance of the resource, (in this case the aircraft), becomes markedly reduced. The concept of "skids off" is a total red herring, because once the Criminal has committed the crime,- the clock is running, - or rather he is. If it then takes 10 minutes to deploy the aircraft then you only have 5- 10 minutes to get on task. Those 20 minute range rings are about as effective as a Chocolate fire guard!
That is why the current proposals are so wrong! Why are our major cities, - where the major tasking issues are located, being ignored?
I remain a country bobby at heart, and will always defend the need to provide cover for the rural area's, but even I recognise the need to give rapid support to our city officers, who are increasingly needing our presence.
And I have a feeling in my waters that that last requirement is going to get worse! - & yes, I was serving up north during the miners strike!
Tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 9th Dec 2010 at 07:34.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
It seems that the whole thing is slowly going down the pan, as they realise that more and more of the numbers that they used were utter b******ks.
I understand that as far as NPAS is concerned, if the CC hasn't asked any questions, then it is taken that his force will abide!
Normally this would be fair enough, however perhaps some wool over eyes and smoke/mirrors have been applied. Unfortunately I reckon that when anyone went to find out about Air Support Operations, they chose the locations they went to and asked, very carefully
I would like to know, but of course never will, if the CCs were informed of how this plan affects their individual force individually, after research has been done on each individual forces requirements and areas of criminal activity. Wouldn't it be 'not quite right' to give a brief to an urban forces CC based on the operations of a rural unit?
Goodness knows what was told to the CCs before signing up to the agreement! Wasn't it all kept so secret!
I also suspect that not only are some of the numbers b******s, but it may be possible that some may have......oh, what was that saying about statistics again?
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SS I think you have hit the nail on the head. Any set of statistics can be spun into saying what ever the author wants them to say, and this is probably the case here. As far as motives are concerned, I could not possibly comment.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Todays News
BBC News - Aircraft plan to replace Dyfed-Powys Police helicopter
61% in under 25 mins!
I wonder how much adding on that extra 5 mins/10 Nm gave!
But figures suggest while 100% of the force's population can be reached in under 25 minutes under the existing system, only 61% could be reached under the proposed 20-base system.
Officers have requested further detail about costs and say further work must be carried out on financial issues before the plan can be taken further.
Officers have requested further detail about costs and say further work must be carried out on financial issues before the plan can be taken further.
I wonder how much adding on that extra 5 mins/10 Nm gave!
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Hang on a minute - NPAS have this plan whereby everyone is better off blah blah.
Then when faced with some,to them, not very helpful statistics they reply.....
" In response, the NPAS project team suggested a fixed-wing aircraft could be based in the force area instead"
Isn't that just an admission that their plan was/is a load of in the first place?
And by the way who pays for said fixed wing?
Then when faced with some,to them, not very helpful statistics they reply.....
" In response, the NPAS project team suggested a fixed-wing aircraft could be based in the force area instead"
Isn't that just an admission that their plan was/is a load of
in the first place? And by the way who pays for said fixed wing?