How much do helicopter pilots earn?
Hello FL
My "rant" on lawyers was against DS's assertions on the merits of different professions. I fully appreciate what you have done for the pilot brotherhood
However!!
I understand your dig at my reasoning despite getting a Bsc Eng (at a reasonable Uni - Durham) you are protecting your profession.
It doesn't, however, take rocket science to work out that if you take £2 Billion( Gov figures) out of any industry then there will be significant economic implications. Your private work will be under pressure from more lawyers who have lost public work which will drive down rates. The good will survive the mediocre will not.
America is indeed different but I doubt better. There are lawyers making huge amounts of money, and some not; but that is funded out of insurance premiums not tax. In fact we are going that way in this country. My brother's engineering company has had its public liability insurance sky rocket due to the compensation culture encouraged by lawyers - if you disagree with that statement have you been in an A&E hospital dept recently and seen the adverts for lawyers or watched Sky TV whose adverts are full of "claims firms"
I shared a flat at Uni with a law student and I would say that the work and effort we did was the same, he went on to articles and I joined the RAF.
I still assert that my particular piloting profession rates higher than a lawyer as against Droopystops list.
HF
(PS will you still represent me at public rates if I ever need you
)
My "rant" on lawyers was against DS's assertions on the merits of different professions. I fully appreciate what you have done for the pilot brotherhood
However!!
I understand your dig at my reasoning despite getting a Bsc Eng (at a reasonable Uni - Durham) you are protecting your profession.
It doesn't, however, take rocket science to work out that if you take £2 Billion( Gov figures) out of any industry then there will be significant economic implications. Your private work will be under pressure from more lawyers who have lost public work which will drive down rates. The good will survive the mediocre will not.
America is indeed different but I doubt better. There are lawyers making huge amounts of money, and some not; but that is funded out of insurance premiums not tax. In fact we are going that way in this country. My brother's engineering company has had its public liability insurance sky rocket due to the compensation culture encouraged by lawyers - if you disagree with that statement have you been in an A&E hospital dept recently and seen the adverts for lawyers or watched Sky TV whose adverts are full of "claims firms"
I shared a flat at Uni with a law student and I would say that the work and effort we did was the same, he went on to articles and I joined the RAF.
I still assert that my particular piloting profession rates higher than a lawyer as against Droopystops list.
HF
(PS will you still represent me at public rates if I ever need you
)
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I wouldn’t deny I found your comments frustrating and a little irritating – in a way in which I don’t when similar comments are made in Jetblast where I expect no better. I don’t feel the need to protect my profession and, when I think it’s deserved, openly concede criticism. However, I occasionally feel the need to correct inaccurate assumptions/assertions and your previous post was such an occasion.
Re rocket science -
”Your private work will be under pressure from more lawyers who have lost public work which will drive down rates.”
That assumes the work which is currently currently publicly-funded would disappear. I think it would reduce, but not significantly.
People who genuinely can’t afford to pay for their legal representation would suffer, but IMHO lawyers currently doing publicly–funded criminal work would largely be doing the same work but at higher fees - which would more than off-set some reduction in volume.
A very high proportion of people who currently receive free (publicly funded) representation could, and would, find the means to pay if they had no alternative. I don’t mean people who are genuinely poor, but those who seem to have no difficulty whatsoever finding money to pay for non-essential things.
Many solicitors have now stopped doing publicly-funded criminal work because it’s so badly paid. I’ve seen nothing to suggest that’s led to lower fees for private work. Until fairly recently, the Bar’s disciplinary code didn’t permit barristers doing criminal work to refuse publicly-funded cases. That rule has now been lifted because the level of fees has become so bad, but it’s too early to assess what difference (if any) it will make.
Compensation culture?
I agree with you. It would be wrong to lay all the blame for that at the door of the legal profession, but the sort of ambulance-chasing lawyers and ‘claims firms’ you mention are regarded with the same disdain inside the profession as outside.
”I still assert that my particular piloting profession rates higher than a lawyer.”
Fine - although I’m not sure what you mean by ‘higher’.
When I cast doubt upon the quality of your reasoning, I didn’t only have your assertions about lawyers in mind.
“I value myself above lawyers and accountants but on a par with Docs and engineers as we, all do jobs, which benefit others.”
So lawyers and accountants don’t?
”After all if there were no lawyers and accountants would the world stop - no (in fact would we notice). Without Docs, you may die and without pilots to fly the workers and engineers to get the oil out you would be living in a cold house and have to walk to work.”
Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, there’s an enormous array of jobs (even in the oil industry) which are essential to get the raw material from source to the consumer. Do you believe they should all be paid the same because they are all essential cogs in the wheel?
In the aviation industry, should cabin attendants (who have a flight safety role in the event of an emergency as well as their more obvious role), aircraft cleaners and baggage handlers be paid the same as pilots?
Paying people according to their perceived contribution to the well-being of society is a wonderful theory but difficult, if not impossible, to apply in practice.
That said, grave-diggers, refuse collectors and sewerage workers would enthusiastically agree with you - and, of course, the bus drivers who take them to work, and the mechanics who keep the buses on the road, and then there's the .................... where do you stop?
Represent you at public rates if you ever need me?
But you won’t need me. As you said, lawyers don’t do a job which benefits others.
The world wouldn’t stop if there were no lawyers?
True – but your world might if you found yourself in a position where you needed a lawyer and didn’t have one.
Re rocket science -
”Your private work will be under pressure from more lawyers who have lost public work which will drive down rates.”
That assumes the work which is currently currently publicly-funded would disappear. I think it would reduce, but not significantly.
People who genuinely can’t afford to pay for their legal representation would suffer, but IMHO lawyers currently doing publicly–funded criminal work would largely be doing the same work but at higher fees - which would more than off-set some reduction in volume.
A very high proportion of people who currently receive free (publicly funded) representation could, and would, find the means to pay if they had no alternative. I don’t mean people who are genuinely poor, but those who seem to have no difficulty whatsoever finding money to pay for non-essential things.
Many solicitors have now stopped doing publicly-funded criminal work because it’s so badly paid. I’ve seen nothing to suggest that’s led to lower fees for private work. Until fairly recently, the Bar’s disciplinary code didn’t permit barristers doing criminal work to refuse publicly-funded cases. That rule has now been lifted because the level of fees has become so bad, but it’s too early to assess what difference (if any) it will make.
Compensation culture?
I agree with you. It would be wrong to lay all the blame for that at the door of the legal profession, but the sort of ambulance-chasing lawyers and ‘claims firms’ you mention are regarded with the same disdain inside the profession as outside.
”I still assert that my particular piloting profession rates higher than a lawyer.”
Fine - although I’m not sure what you mean by ‘higher’.
When I cast doubt upon the quality of your reasoning, I didn’t only have your assertions about lawyers in mind.
“I value myself above lawyers and accountants but on a par with Docs and engineers as we, all do jobs, which benefit others.”
So lawyers and accountants don’t?
”After all if there were no lawyers and accountants would the world stop - no (in fact would we notice). Without Docs, you may die and without pilots to fly the workers and engineers to get the oil out you would be living in a cold house and have to walk to work.”
Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, there’s an enormous array of jobs (even in the oil industry) which are essential to get the raw material from source to the consumer. Do you believe they should all be paid the same because they are all essential cogs in the wheel?
In the aviation industry, should cabin attendants (who have a flight safety role in the event of an emergency as well as their more obvious role), aircraft cleaners and baggage handlers be paid the same as pilots?
Paying people according to their perceived contribution to the well-being of society is a wonderful theory but difficult, if not impossible, to apply in practice.
That said, grave-diggers, refuse collectors and sewerage workers would enthusiastically agree with you - and, of course, the bus drivers who take them to work, and the mechanics who keep the buses on the road, and then there's the .................... where do you stop?
Represent you at public rates if you ever need me?
But you won’t need me. As you said, lawyers don’t do a job which benefits others.
The world wouldn’t stop if there were no lawyers?
True – but your world might if you found yourself in a position where you needed a lawyer and didn’t have one.
Hovering AND talking
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"Lawyers are only paid so much because they work in a subsidised industry"
I find all this slightly amusing in my slightly intoxicated state when I have a degree in Rocket Science (OK, BSc(Hons) London 2:2 Nuclear Physics) and am a Chartered Accountant and am currently wading through CPL ground school.
I would also like to add that in order to get my Chartered status, I had to have a degree at 2:2 or above and then go on to do another 3 years studying and training (minimum). In my case four years, but then, as I said, I failed economics. In the UK therefore, 6 years total for Chartered Accountant (they ain't fussed in which subject), 5 years for a doctor, 7 years for a vet, 6 years for a solicitor.
And... I would also like to add that there is a professional requirement upon me, governed my my Institute, to undertake a certain amount of professional training each year. If I don't, I could lose my qualification. This amounts to about 50 hours per annum of "classroom" work!
Whatever my gripes about the JAA exams (and there are many), they are far easier in comparison to the other two "qualifications" that I have. Just my view.
Cheers
Whirls
Droopystop - there are many accountants who get to learn about the nature of the business in which they work; I just wish that there were as many "operatives" who would take the time to understand the finances!
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FL,
I must admit that I am out of touch with the current way of things at Universities - I too attended a university when we were among the top 5% of school leavers.
I am not trying to suggest that doing a degree would be a good way of selecting pilots, in fact it is probably exactly the wrong thing to do. But if pilots want a decent wage, then there has to be some form of exclusivity (supply and demand and all that) and that means training must weed out the unsuitables.
HF,
Having flown North Sea myself, there are far more important, well trained and qualified people sat in back of the machines than in the front. I sat both front and back.
I must admit that I am out of touch with the current way of things at Universities - I too attended a university when we were among the top 5% of school leavers.
I am not trying to suggest that doing a degree would be a good way of selecting pilots, in fact it is probably exactly the wrong thing to do. But if pilots want a decent wage, then there has to be some form of exclusivity (supply and demand and all that) and that means training must weed out the unsuitables.
HF,
Having flown North Sea myself, there are far more important, well trained and qualified people sat in back of the machines than in the front. I sat both front and back.
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I couldn't agree with you more Flying Lawyer. I sometimes wonder why you bother with pprune, thank goodness you do though.
Ditto Whirlygig.
Nakamichie fan (no degree)
Ditto Whirlygig.
Nakamichie fan (no degree)
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FLYING LAWYER..
I do agree with you on some accounts but let me tell you a trade is not as easy as you may think it is to get.. I dont no about in the U.K but in N.Z its alot of work ..I had to go to night school for two years as well as working ,and the Trade exam was bloody hard , its not just smacking in a few nails in or bending afew pipes.. You have to learn alot of engineering for structural work. Spec, Building regs and codes of practice... anyway enough on that.. I was just saying if you are young and want to fly, within afew years of hard work put in you can earn great money and take your trade anywhere in the world with you, while you fly, and instead of fighting to build hours with a massive loan and competing with everyone else.. You can work quite flexable hours on good money... and not sit round and moan about having a massive loan and how to pay for it.. Out of five stiff wing lads i worked part time with while i was doing my trade, one flys in OZ and the other four are working verous jobs not involved in aviation all these lads spent about 85k and three years at uni doing av degree...
I do agree with you on some accounts but let me tell you a trade is not as easy as you may think it is to get.. I dont no about in the U.K but in N.Z its alot of work ..I had to go to night school for two years as well as working ,and the Trade exam was bloody hard , its not just smacking in a few nails in or bending afew pipes.. You have to learn alot of engineering for structural work. Spec, Building regs and codes of practice... anyway enough on that.. I was just saying if you are young and want to fly, within afew years of hard work put in you can earn great money and take your trade anywhere in the world with you, while you fly, and instead of fighting to build hours with a massive loan and competing with everyone else.. You can work quite flexable hours on good money... and not sit round and moan about having a massive loan and how to pay for it.. Out of five stiff wing lads i worked part time with while i was doing my trade, one flys in OZ and the other four are working verous jobs not involved in aviation all these lads spent about 85k and three years at uni doing av degree...
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I went to university too, what a f*&^%ng week that was.
There are some very interesting points of view in this thread and some very funny comments on the first page but I can't help feeling that there is a major factor being overlooked.
I, like many 10 year olds at their first airshow, just wanted to be a pilot. I never really grew out of that but the dream died away as reality set in. I became an engineer and soon realised that actually, I could possibly become a pilot. I went for it and here I sit many years later having enjoyed every second.
The point I'm getting at is that most of us fly because it was something to which we were attracted, not something that we went into to make a pile of money. For many of us it has been a second career and we didn't give up the first to make money, we gave it up to fly.
Making a fair salary is essential to self-fulfilment but how do you define "fair".
There is a clear structure within helicopter aviation, the more demanding jobs pay better salaries and the more determined and professional pilots get those jobs, its just like any other profession. Some of you guys need to stop whining and give yourself a career assessment. If you want one of those higher paid jobs, work at it and make it happen. If you can't live with your current lot, do something about it, go back to school and become qualified for the profession that will provide the salary you want. If you are unhappy, do something.
Pilots' desire to fly is a huge driving force in this industry, that is never going to change. Comparing ourselves with other professionals in order to establish where you fit into the social or professional structure is just comical.
Incidentally, I make less money now than I did 10 years ago, but I still have a plan and I still love going to work every day. When that changes, I'll do something else.
There are some very interesting points of view in this thread and some very funny comments on the first page but I can't help feeling that there is a major factor being overlooked.
I, like many 10 year olds at their first airshow, just wanted to be a pilot. I never really grew out of that but the dream died away as reality set in. I became an engineer and soon realised that actually, I could possibly become a pilot. I went for it and here I sit many years later having enjoyed every second.
The point I'm getting at is that most of us fly because it was something to which we were attracted, not something that we went into to make a pile of money. For many of us it has been a second career and we didn't give up the first to make money, we gave it up to fly.
Making a fair salary is essential to self-fulfilment but how do you define "fair".
There is a clear structure within helicopter aviation, the more demanding jobs pay better salaries and the more determined and professional pilots get those jobs, its just like any other profession. Some of you guys need to stop whining and give yourself a career assessment. If you want one of those higher paid jobs, work at it and make it happen. If you can't live with your current lot, do something about it, go back to school and become qualified for the profession that will provide the salary you want. If you are unhappy, do something.
Pilots' desire to fly is a huge driving force in this industry, that is never going to change. Comparing ourselves with other professionals in order to establish where you fit into the social or professional structure is just comical.
Incidentally, I make less money now than I did 10 years ago, but I still have a plan and I still love going to work every day. When that changes, I'll do something else.
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I will pay exactly what I have to in order to get the job done.
I think there will always be more pilots than jobs so you're well placed to take full advantage in that way.
What surprises me is that you're not only so proud of the way you exploit the situation, but get such pleasure from gloating about the fact that you can and do.
Still, decency and integrity have never been requirements to be a businessman so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
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I apologise to all accountants, lawyers, engineers and timeserved tradesmen for dragging you into this. This pilot for one appreciates what you have to go through to achieve and maintain your qualifiacations. We pilots have it easy (and have far more fun) - and thats why I gave up engineering.
Perhaps I did not make it clear but I base all my posts on a N Sea commander as my pilot reference for comparisons.
I find it interesting that some posters think that getting the licence is the end of learning process when compared to other industries. This is just the start.
If you were lucky enough to get a job in the N Sea with the basic CPL/IR you would then start a learning and training process that would take 5+ years before you would be considered for a command on a twin. We have recruited pilots who seem to be experienced only for them to fail line flying or night deck landings.
Even in the RAF, which has a very selective recruitment system you would expect to do at least 4 yrs from wings before being assessed for a SAR command.
We live in a capitalist society where market forces should reflect what we are paid. Hence FL's reference to plumbers etc who seem to be in very short supply. The easier it is to do a job the less you generally are paid.
In the N Sea we are desperately short of suitably qualified pilots hence CHC Scotia's recent advert in Flight Int - unheard of really as our HR dept usually has a drawer full of CVs. Therefore our pay now is rising and pilots are retiring one day and being enticed back the next at a contract rate that has risen 50% in the past 6 months.
HF
I find it interesting that some posters think that getting the licence is the end of learning process when compared to other industries. This is just the start.
If you were lucky enough to get a job in the N Sea with the basic CPL/IR you would then start a learning and training process that would take 5+ years before you would be considered for a command on a twin. We have recruited pilots who seem to be experienced only for them to fail line flying or night deck landings.
Even in the RAF, which has a very selective recruitment system you would expect to do at least 4 yrs from wings before being assessed for a SAR command.
We live in a capitalist society where market forces should reflect what we are paid. Hence FL's reference to plumbers etc who seem to be in very short supply. The easier it is to do a job the less you generally are paid.
In the N Sea we are desperately short of suitably qualified pilots hence CHC Scotia's recent advert in Flight Int - unheard of really as our HR dept usually has a drawer full of CVs. Therefore our pay now is rising and pilots are retiring one day and being enticed back the next at a contract rate that has risen 50% in the past 6 months.
HF
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A career in aviation
I wonder how many professional pilots look back and say, ' If I had my time again I'd do something different and fly for pleasure when I want to'.
I wonder how many golf pro's are happy in their work?
I stopped short of the Commercial back in the 70's and have flown privately since.
I can fly my 4 fixed wing aircraft ( and shortly my new R44) when I want to.
The path to success in your own business is tough but the rewards are far greater than you can ever dream of as a pilot.
Why is it also that so many retired airline pilots are grouchy old gits? I reckon they missed something in their lives.
Couple that with the high divorce rate and the reduced life expectancy...
All I would say is, 'If you are passionate about flying theres nothing better than to enjoy your passion when you alone want to. There are other paths to aviation fulfilment and certainly more money for the essentials in life.
Want a job flying me and my staff ( 35 lovely ladies) around in the new R44? Its yours.
You want paying?
I'll have a deal with you. I wont charge you for the priviledge - get a job evenings and weekends to pay the mortgage and your £50k training loan off.
I bet I get lots of offers.
HP
I wonder how many golf pro's are happy in their work?
I stopped short of the Commercial back in the 70's and have flown privately since.
I can fly my 4 fixed wing aircraft ( and shortly my new R44) when I want to.
The path to success in your own business is tough but the rewards are far greater than you can ever dream of as a pilot.
Why is it also that so many retired airline pilots are grouchy old gits? I reckon they missed something in their lives.
Couple that with the high divorce rate and the reduced life expectancy...
All I would say is, 'If you are passionate about flying theres nothing better than to enjoy your passion when you alone want to. There are other paths to aviation fulfilment and certainly more money for the essentials in life.
Want a job flying me and my staff ( 35 lovely ladies) around in the new R44? Its yours.
You want paying?
I'll have a deal with you. I wont charge you for the priviledge - get a job evenings and weekends to pay the mortgage and your £50k training loan off.
I bet I get lots of offers.
HP
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nakamichie fan
The 'anti lawyer' stuff is occasionally a little frustrating, but it doesn't bother me. Having been a lawyer for a long time, I'm used to it - I've got no illusions that the legal profession will ever do well in the popularity stakes.
I think Pprune is an amazing website and the talent on this forum in particular is truly outstanding. I've always found professional pilots to be extremely helpful when I've wanted advice and I try to give something back from my area of expertise when I can.
Droopystop
Thank you, but there's really no need to apologise as far as I'm concerned. I've enjoyed the discussion. I still don't see how/why you rate timeserved tradesmen above professional pilots, but we can agree to differ on that.
Gymble
If you're trolling, you do it extremely well. When some people cast bait, it's very obvious.
In your case, I find it difficult to tell if you're just having fun on the internet or whether you really are in real life an unpleasant individual who exploits people and derives great pleasure from doing so.
Hairyplane
I meet many professional pilots (airline/corporate, fixed-wing/helicopters) during the course of my work and have a number of friends who are professional pilots. They sometimes mention things they don't like about their jobs, but I can't remember one of them ever saying he doesn't enjoy the most crucial thing about his job, even after many years in the industry - flying.
My clear impression is that the answer to your question is that very few would do something different if they had their time over. There was a thread about this some time ago. As I recall, the overwhelming majority of helicopter pilots said they'd do it again.
"I can fly my 4 fixed wing aircraft ( and shortly my new R44) when I want to."
Good for you. 4 f/w's and not only an R44, but a new R44! Gosh, you must be very rich. I'm sure everyone will be as impressed as I am that you've told us that.
"Why is it also that so many retired airline pilots are grouchy old gits? I reckon they missed something in their lives."
I haven't noticed they are but, if you're right, perhaps what they're missing is the flying.
"All I would say is, 'If you are passionate about flying theres nothing better than to enjoy your passion when you alone want to. There are other paths to aviation fulfilment and certainly more money for the essentials in life."
If you think that, all I'd say is that you obviously don't understand the enormous gulf between private flying and operating an aircraft as a professional pilot. Pottering around as a PPL may be sufficient for some of us, but it's unlikely to provide fulfilment for anyone who has serious aviation aspirations.
Did it give you a nice warm smug feeling to post that in a forum where the majority of people are professional pilots who don't earn anything like the amount you do? And where some are newly-qualifed with massive loans to repay but can't find a job?
That's undoubtedly true, and I'm sure they already knew that.
Such a shame so many self-made businessmen who've made a lot of money tend to be, like you, so boastful and flash about it.
But of course, there's one thing no amount of money can buy - as you demonstrate so well.
The 'anti lawyer' stuff is occasionally a little frustrating, but it doesn't bother me. Having been a lawyer for a long time, I'm used to it - I've got no illusions that the legal profession will ever do well in the popularity stakes.
I think Pprune is an amazing website and the talent on this forum in particular is truly outstanding. I've always found professional pilots to be extremely helpful when I've wanted advice and I try to give something back from my area of expertise when I can.
Droopystop
Thank you, but there's really no need to apologise as far as I'm concerned. I've enjoyed the discussion. I still don't see how/why you rate timeserved tradesmen above professional pilots, but we can agree to differ on that.
Gymble
If you're trolling, you do it extremely well. When some people cast bait, it's very obvious.
In your case, I find it difficult to tell if you're just having fun on the internet or whether you really are in real life an unpleasant individual who exploits people and derives great pleasure from doing so.
Hairyplane
I meet many professional pilots (airline/corporate, fixed-wing/helicopters) during the course of my work and have a number of friends who are professional pilots. They sometimes mention things they don't like about their jobs, but I can't remember one of them ever saying he doesn't enjoy the most crucial thing about his job, even after many years in the industry - flying.
My clear impression is that the answer to your question is that very few would do something different if they had their time over. There was a thread about this some time ago. As I recall, the overwhelming majority of helicopter pilots said they'd do it again.
"I can fly my 4 fixed wing aircraft ( and shortly my new R44) when I want to."
Good for you. 4 f/w's and not only an R44, but a new R44! Gosh, you must be very rich. I'm sure everyone will be as impressed as I am that you've told us that.
"Why is it also that so many retired airline pilots are grouchy old gits? I reckon they missed something in their lives."
I haven't noticed they are but, if you're right, perhaps what they're missing is the flying.
"All I would say is, 'If you are passionate about flying theres nothing better than to enjoy your passion when you alone want to. There are other paths to aviation fulfilment and certainly more money for the essentials in life."
If you think that, all I'd say is that you obviously don't understand the enormous gulf between private flying and operating an aircraft as a professional pilot. Pottering around as a PPL may be sufficient for some of us, but it's unlikely to provide fulfilment for anyone who has serious aviation aspirations.
"Want a job flying me and my staff ( 35 lovely ladies) around in the new R44? Its yours.
You want paying?
I'll have a deal with you. I wont charge you for the priviledge - get a job evenings and weekends to pay the mortgage and your £50k training loan off.
I bet I get lots of offers.
You want paying?
I'll have a deal with you. I wont charge you for the priviledge - get a job evenings and weekends to pay the mortgage and your £50k training loan off.
I bet I get lots of offers.
"The path to success in your own business is tough but the rewards are far greater than you can ever dream of as a pilot."
Such a shame so many self-made businessmen who've made a lot of money tend to be, like you, so boastful and flash about it.
But of course, there's one thing no amount of money can buy - as you demonstrate so well.
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To clarify my position.
I never indicated that a suitably qualified and experienced pilot should not receive a decent wage. That wage should be adjusted to allow for location and role. What constitutes a decent wage is contentious and we all have our views on what it should be. I personaly don't believe that pilots can demand the pay that certain professionals command - we don't work hard enough.
I would dearly love to see aviation be more selective early on. It would prevent many dissillusioned wannabees with big debts, no hours and no job. It might have even prevented me from doing what I do now, but at least I could be flying for fun as suggested by Hairyplane.
What is interesting is what Hummingfrog says about the lack of "qualified" (I think you meant experienced - they wouldn't be there without the right qualifications) pilots in the NS. All the NS companies have taken on self improvers over the last few years and it is interesting that they do not seem to be making the grade. Reason enough to make the training more demanding at an early stage.
I never indicated that a suitably qualified and experienced pilot should not receive a decent wage. That wage should be adjusted to allow for location and role. What constitutes a decent wage is contentious and we all have our views on what it should be. I personaly don't believe that pilots can demand the pay that certain professionals command - we don't work hard enough.
I would dearly love to see aviation be more selective early on. It would prevent many dissillusioned wannabees with big debts, no hours and no job. It might have even prevented me from doing what I do now, but at least I could be flying for fun as suggested by Hairyplane.
What is interesting is what Hummingfrog says about the lack of "qualified" (I think you meant experienced - they wouldn't be there without the right qualifications) pilots in the NS. All the NS companies have taken on self improvers over the last few years and it is interesting that they do not seem to be making the grade. Reason enough to make the training more demanding at an early stage.
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Droop
Droopstop
I've before worked in the IT sector as both a technician and supervisor. I've also had a few extrajobs doing very diffrent stuff. So I've got a pretty good view of the jobmarket in general.
Now I'm studying to be a pilot. I find many of your oppinions quite remarkable. I consider being a professional pilot one of the most qualified jobs you can have. But ofcourse, this is a matter of oppinion. I guess there are people who feel that beeing a electrician (a high school education in this country) is more demanding than sitting 1000 feet up in the air flying a helicopter.
What sort of jobs have you had flying to make you have the oppinion that pilots work so little and sit on their a** so much ? I currently work extra at a helicoptercompany that builds mobilephone antennas and various work like that. We work very hard every shift I'm there, the pilots fly much every day.
My friend who works in EMS might not fly more than 2-3h per 8h shift, but on the other hand much of the flying is very demanding and there are company rules about rest between IFR/NVG flying.
I dont think you and me share anything in this matter, anyway I wish you all the best...
Regards
RotorSwede
I've before worked in the IT sector as both a technician and supervisor. I've also had a few extrajobs doing very diffrent stuff. So I've got a pretty good view of the jobmarket in general.
Now I'm studying to be a pilot. I find many of your oppinions quite remarkable. I consider being a professional pilot one of the most qualified jobs you can have. But ofcourse, this is a matter of oppinion. I guess there are people who feel that beeing a electrician (a high school education in this country) is more demanding than sitting 1000 feet up in the air flying a helicopter.
What sort of jobs have you had flying to make you have the oppinion that pilots work so little and sit on their a** so much ? I currently work extra at a helicoptercompany that builds mobilephone antennas and various work like that. We work very hard every shift I'm there, the pilots fly much every day.
My friend who works in EMS might not fly more than 2-3h per 8h shift, but on the other hand much of the flying is very demanding and there are company rules about rest between IFR/NVG flying.
I dont think you and me share anything in this matter, anyway I wish you all the best...
Regards
RotorSwede
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tommacklin, you make some excellent points and do so with great tact. Your first line is a classic!
Flying Lawyer, your posts are getting more to the point each time. I disagree with a few of your points but by and large I think you're right on.
Everyone would like to make more money and most of us think we deserve it. I'm just a PPL because I've convinced myself that I enjoy flying enought that if I did it for a living I wouldn't enjoy it anymore. Well, that and the fact that it takes A LOT of work and a LOT of personal sacrifice. And a LOT of money. So professional pilots deserve a handsome wage and most of the ones I know do fairly well. Obviously the newer ones barely get by, but that's part of putting in your time and paying your dues, something required in almost every profession.
In jest I'll say that it's a lot like giving a salary to the warden of a women's prison. "You mean I get paid too?!!!"
Flying Lawyer, your posts are getting more to the point each time. I disagree with a few of your points but by and large I think you're right on.
Everyone would like to make more money and most of us think we deserve it. I'm just a PPL because I've convinced myself that I enjoy flying enought that if I did it for a living I wouldn't enjoy it anymore. Well, that and the fact that it takes A LOT of work and a LOT of personal sacrifice. And a LOT of money. So professional pilots deserve a handsome wage and most of the ones I know do fairly well. Obviously the newer ones barely get by, but that's part of putting in your time and paying your dues, something required in almost every profession.
In jest I'll say that it's a lot like giving a salary to the warden of a women's prison. "You mean I get paid too?!!!"
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A report in the paper here this morning said the AVERAGE wage for an Australian working full time has reached $1000 per week for the first time.
Now if that is the average I would think that most pilots in GA (fixed & rotary) are being paid less than the national averagein this country.
Now maybe if I think about it for a while that will make perfect sense but right at the moment I must admit I'm struggling.
Now before you start Gymgle, I do earn more than that and I'm happy with what I earn but I don't think thats really the point of this thread. I'm lucky. And you shouldn't be lucky to get paid what you think you are worth.
Now if that is the average I would think that most pilots in GA (fixed & rotary) are being paid less than the national averagein this country.
Now maybe if I think about it for a while that will make perfect sense but right at the moment I must admit I'm struggling.
Now before you start Gymgle, I do earn more than that and I'm happy with what I earn but I don't think thats really the point of this thread. I'm lucky. And you shouldn't be lucky to get paid what you think you are worth.
Droopystop
No, I meant qualified - this is not just a paper qualification it is a personnel qualification in that you have to have the right qualities to be a N Sea commander. Leadership, handling skills, integrity being some.
Experience just means that you have done something be it night deck landings, rig radars or usls it doesn't mean you are any good at it or are fit to be a commander while doing it.
HF
No, I meant qualified - this is not just a paper qualification it is a personnel qualification in that you have to have the right qualities to be a N Sea commander. Leadership, handling skills, integrity being some.
Experience just means that you have done something be it night deck landings, rig radars or usls it doesn't mean you are any good at it or are fit to be a commander while doing it.
HF