How much do helicopter pilots earn?
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Don't know where Mr Selfish gets his pay info from , looks like he's talking in dollars in which case even an offshore co-pilot makes 100k and only has to work half a year for it
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you should try the north sea if you're looking a pay rise experienced IFR captains get paid over 200k in your aussie dollars , maybe we do just get paid what we are worth and we are better at it ?
BC7669,
With the standard and the cost of living comparison between Aus/UK, your pound sterling buys in UK the same as a $A buys in Oz.
Quality of life, now there's another subject
With the standard and the cost of living comparison between Aus/UK, your pound sterling buys in UK the same as a $A buys in Oz.
Quality of life, now there's another subject
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Mr Selfish........
In the crewroom, northsea wise, you would have labelled yourself as a sh*t for brains with your comments.
With your comments you have shown all insiders that you don't have a clue, none whatsoever, about anything worth a discussion.
IMO
regards
In the crewroom, northsea wise, you would have labelled yourself as a sh*t for brains with your comments.
With your comments you have shown all insiders that you don't have a clue, none whatsoever, about anything worth a discussion.
IMO
regards
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Ok I'm lost. Just what has Mr S said thats got you all so fired up. Maybe he said he would like to earn more money, but I'm not really sure he did. Maybe he was saying that pilots in general don't earn enough...... Any one out there like to be earning less !!!!
I thought he made some interesting copmparisons. Surely if we aspire to be professionals we can aspire to be paid as professionals. Maybe not from day one but once you develop the skills to make a valuable contribution to an organisation then I think it's fair enough to expect a reasonable wage.
Gymble ?????
You are either 1. A master plsstaker or 2. An employer of entry level, no hour pilots or 3. An employer of quallified pilots who keeps his views about them carefully hidden.
If you really feel the way you say you do I don't see why you are in this business at all. Why employ people you can't stand, whos skills you don't value I can't see anyone with any choice at all working for you if you treated them the way you claim to.
You're not the king of the outback skies by any chance are you ???
I thought he made some interesting copmparisons. Surely if we aspire to be professionals we can aspire to be paid as professionals. Maybe not from day one but once you develop the skills to make a valuable contribution to an organisation then I think it's fair enough to expect a reasonable wage.
Gymble ?????
You are either 1. A master plsstaker or 2. An employer of entry level, no hour pilots or 3. An employer of quallified pilots who keeps his views about them carefully hidden.
If you really feel the way you say you do I don't see why you are in this business at all. Why employ people you can't stand, whos skills you don't value I can't see anyone with any choice at all working for you if you treated them the way you claim to.
You're not the king of the outback skies by any chance are you ???
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I feel that pilots (both fixed and rotary) are underpaid to the point of poverty.
The reason is that "scabs" will work for next nothing to get there hours and the scumbag operators will let them.
This seems to be OK, "a rite of passage that we all had to do". Bulls**t.
We should be putting pressure on the companies to pay what we deserve. Not bend over and take it.
I think it is time we all stop complaining to each other,go and tell your employer. Maybe if they hear it enough they may get the picture.
At the end of the day, you can always vote with your feet.
The reason is that "scabs" will work for next nothing to get there hours and the scumbag operators will let them.
This seems to be OK, "a rite of passage that we all had to do". Bulls**t.
We should be putting pressure on the companies to pay what we deserve. Not bend over and take it.
I think it is time we all stop complaining to each other,go and tell your employer. Maybe if they hear it enough they may get the picture.
At the end of the day, you can always vote with your feet.
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I don't know how arduous the Australia CPL course is, but I suspect that it is not dissimilar to the UK and indeed any other. The bottom line is this. If you put your mind to it, you can get a frozen ATPL, with an IR, a couple of type ratings and maybe one or two speciallity ratings in say 15 months. That allows you at least to call yourself a fully paid up member of the professional pilot community. Just over a year.
Now take for instance an electrician. Apprenticeship that takes 4 or 5 years including college. An accountant / lawyer / design engineer / teacher - 3 or 4 years at uni followed by 2 or more years on the job training followed by exams. So where does that put us? Nothing more than machinery operators. Complicated machinery I grant you, but simply machinery operators. Until we have to do proper qualifications to be allowed to fly, pilots will remain poorly paid. As for experience, every employer wants experience - it is expected of any trade or profession. Experience gets you the top wack wage. Until you have experience, expect to be paid accordingly.
Now I am not saying that this is necessarily right, but I believe that pilots generally have an over inflated opinion of themselves, their profession and wage expectations. Companies only pay what they have to. If you want a cushy number close to home flying tourists around Sydney, don't expect to be paid as well as someone doing Offshore SAR in the Norwegian Sea.
Now take for instance an electrician. Apprenticeship that takes 4 or 5 years including college. An accountant / lawyer / design engineer / teacher - 3 or 4 years at uni followed by 2 or more years on the job training followed by exams. So where does that put us? Nothing more than machinery operators. Complicated machinery I grant you, but simply machinery operators. Until we have to do proper qualifications to be allowed to fly, pilots will remain poorly paid. As for experience, every employer wants experience - it is expected of any trade or profession. Experience gets you the top wack wage. Until you have experience, expect to be paid accordingly.
Now I am not saying that this is necessarily right, but I believe that pilots generally have an over inflated opinion of themselves, their profession and wage expectations. Companies only pay what they have to. If you want a cushy number close to home flying tourists around Sydney, don't expect to be paid as well as someone doing Offshore SAR in the Norwegian Sea.
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eating our own!!
Assuming that everyone on this thread is a colleaugue pilot,
How is it that colleaugues are actually arguing about wages? Should we all not be "on the same page" and ask for more money whatever job we do? Doesn't mean we'll get it!!
I would suggest that this is a " bass ackwards" industry (business/employment part) and many of us have been programmed to not rock the boat!!!!
Too much infighting.....not enough peer support!
SAD TO SEE boys and girls!
DK
How is it that colleaugues are actually arguing about wages? Should we all not be "on the same page" and ask for more money whatever job we do? Doesn't mean we'll get it!!
I would suggest that this is a " bass ackwards" industry (business/employment part) and many of us have been programmed to not rock the boat!!!!
Too much infighting.....not enough peer support!
SAD TO SEE boys and girls!
DK
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Droopystop
I think you're being far too modest about professional pilot qualifications.
The time it takes to qualify is only one factor and, in isolation, means nothing.
You say it's possible to obtain "a frozen ATPL, with an IR, a couple of type ratings and maybe one or two speciallity ratings in say 15 months" whereas becoming an electrician involves a 4-5 year apprenticeship including attending college. Are you assuming the same intensity of effort and study during the respective periods?
There are always exceptions to all generalisations but are you assuming that, generally, people who train to become electricians have the same mental capacity as those who train to become professional pilots?
Or that anyone capable of qualifying as an electrician is capable of qualifying as a professional pilot/accountant / lawyer / design engineer?
"Until we have to do proper qualifications to be allowed to fly, pilots will remain poorly paid."
What do you mean by 'proper qualifications'? Isn't a professional licence a proper qualification? And an IR?
"Companies only pay what they have to."
True - demand and supply ultimately dictates. (The outrageous amounts currently charged by plumbers in the UK is a classic example.) Earnings aren't going to improve much (if at all) while there are more pilots than jobs.
If supply exceeeds demand, why would companies pay more to pilots with "proper qualifications"?
(I agree with you about experience.)
I think you're being far too modest about professional pilot qualifications.
The time it takes to qualify is only one factor and, in isolation, means nothing.
You say it's possible to obtain "a frozen ATPL, with an IR, a couple of type ratings and maybe one or two speciallity ratings in say 15 months" whereas becoming an electrician involves a 4-5 year apprenticeship including attending college. Are you assuming the same intensity of effort and study during the respective periods?
There are always exceptions to all generalisations but are you assuming that, generally, people who train to become electricians have the same mental capacity as those who train to become professional pilots?
Or that anyone capable of qualifying as an electrician is capable of qualifying as a professional pilot/accountant / lawyer / design engineer?
"Until we have to do proper qualifications to be allowed to fly, pilots will remain poorly paid."
What do you mean by 'proper qualifications'? Isn't a professional licence a proper qualification? And an IR?
"Companies only pay what they have to."
True - demand and supply ultimately dictates. (The outrageous amounts currently charged by plumbers in the UK is a classic example.) Earnings aren't going to improve much (if at all) while there are more pilots than jobs.
If supply exceeeds demand, why would companies pay more to pilots with "proper qualifications"?
(I agree with you about experience.)
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cast of characters
I detect two windups here. Another two that would argue with anyone about anything, which always makes for good fun and keeps the conversation lively. And a handful of folks that wouldn't mind pilots making a better wage.
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I bet they don't pay $100k for a 300 hour electrician.
They're also looking for an experienced guy.
There is a shortage in general of experienced people, not only in aviation.
But the fact a helicopter pilot runs a lot more risk than in most other jobs, including fixed-wing pilots, the pay should be accordingly.
This however can only be achieved by the pilots and don't expect employers just to raise the wages. But most of us just jump on a job without negotiations. Yes you should negotiate beffore you start. As soon as you started working you can forget it, don't expect anybody start paying you better when you perform well. An employer just takes that for granted and after all he's paying you to do the job well, so nothing you have nothing to complain about.
But in general off course I think the pay is to low, don't get me wrong.
They're also looking for an experienced guy.
There is a shortage in general of experienced people, not only in aviation.
But the fact a helicopter pilot runs a lot more risk than in most other jobs, including fixed-wing pilots, the pay should be accordingly.
This however can only be achieved by the pilots and don't expect employers just to raise the wages. But most of us just jump on a job without negotiations. Yes you should negotiate beffore you start. As soon as you started working you can forget it, don't expect anybody start paying you better when you perform well. An employer just takes that for granted and after all he's paying you to do the job well, so nothing you have nothing to complain about.
But in general off course I think the pay is to low, don't get me wrong.
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Diverse bunch of characters chopper pilots are...
In what other profession would you find guys that are actually fully qualified in other trades.
Truth is that with the expense we go to become eligible for that 'nice' job, we all had to get a well paying job first. Thus the wealth of computer industry people, wildlife experts, geologists and fw pilots that evolve into chopper jocks.
We can safely add a few years to the 15 months droopystop mentioned, to leave time for saving up for training.
In what other profession would you find guys that are actually fully qualified in other trades.
Truth is that with the expense we go to become eligible for that 'nice' job, we all had to get a well paying job first. Thus the wealth of computer industry people, wildlife experts, geologists and fw pilots that evolve into chopper jocks.
We can safely add a few years to the 15 months droopystop mentioned, to leave time for saving up for training.
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The pilot profession
Been reading this thread and felt like I wanted to make a contribution.
In Sweden, where I'm from, it would not take 15 months to become a fully trained, unexperienced pilot. Not in a long shot. Somewhere between 24 and 36 months is a more realistic estimation of time.
PPL theori, PPL flyinglessons, PPL exams, PPL checkride, PIC time, ATPL theori, CPL flyinglessons, ATPL exams, CPL checkride, typeratings (for example R44 and B206L) to be able to start IR flyinglessons, IR-flyging lessons, IR checkride. Add to this all the canceled flights because of bad weather, the few exams you have to do again and technical problems with the a/c. It soon adds up.
So, in my world 15 months is out of the question. Since Sweden is member of JAA this should go for most JAA countries.
In Sweden the cost of this education would be 130 000 US$. This is about 5 times what a the typical swedes makes in a year (and then you have to pay tax on top of that). It is probably the most expensive education you can take.
More expensive than studying to be a doctor of medicin (even if that eduction is 5-7 years), much more expensive than a bachelor of science or bachelor of engineering or lawyer. The cost of an education generally reflects on the pay.
So the comparisson some people make in this thread about electricians beeing having a more qualified work is nonsens. An electrician education is a high school education
To this Mr Gymble: What is your name and what company do you work for ?
Best regards
RotorSwede
In Sweden, where I'm from, it would not take 15 months to become a fully trained, unexperienced pilot. Not in a long shot. Somewhere between 24 and 36 months is a more realistic estimation of time.
PPL theori, PPL flyinglessons, PPL exams, PPL checkride, PIC time, ATPL theori, CPL flyinglessons, ATPL exams, CPL checkride, typeratings (for example R44 and B206L) to be able to start IR flyinglessons, IR-flyging lessons, IR checkride. Add to this all the canceled flights because of bad weather, the few exams you have to do again and technical problems with the a/c. It soon adds up.
So, in my world 15 months is out of the question. Since Sweden is member of JAA this should go for most JAA countries.
In Sweden the cost of this education would be 130 000 US$. This is about 5 times what a the typical swedes makes in a year (and then you have to pay tax on top of that). It is probably the most expensive education you can take.
More expensive than studying to be a doctor of medicin (even if that eduction is 5-7 years), much more expensive than a bachelor of science or bachelor of engineering or lawyer. The cost of an education generally reflects on the pay.
So the comparisson some people make in this thread about electricians beeing having a more qualified work is nonsens. An electrician education is a high school education
To this Mr Gymble: What is your name and what company do you work for ?
Best regards
RotorSwede
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Firstly I am not on a wind up.
Secondly a full time JAR approved ATPL course takes about 11 months, an IR 6 weeks, a type rating anything from a day to 3 weeks. Hence the 15 months.
I am fed up with pilots thinking that because they have a CPL / ATPL they should have the same social standing and pay as a degree trained professional (Though I have to say that this is a trait more common in FW pilots than RW). The current training system in aviation allows virtually anyone with a handful of dollars to become a professional pilot. Money is just about the only means of selection. How relevant is that to being a good pilot?
The reason Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants and many other professions and trades command the wages and social standing they do is becuase they have been through a gruelling selection / grading process.
Now if aviation made it harder to become a pilot by ensuring that only the good get through, then and only then will the wages will increase. Until then, pilots will have to come to terms with the fact that selection only occurs once you have spent your £60/70/80, 000 and you start hunting for those poorly paid jobs.
Even if you do make it, there are very few pilots (if any) out there who work as hard and are challenged as often as a doctor / lawyer / accountant / design engineer. Those few earn good money and rightly so (especially since those types of jobs invaribaly mean antisocial hours and hostile environments).
Secondly a full time JAR approved ATPL course takes about 11 months, an IR 6 weeks, a type rating anything from a day to 3 weeks. Hence the 15 months.
I am fed up with pilots thinking that because they have a CPL / ATPL they should have the same social standing and pay as a degree trained professional (Though I have to say that this is a trait more common in FW pilots than RW). The current training system in aviation allows virtually anyone with a handful of dollars to become a professional pilot. Money is just about the only means of selection. How relevant is that to being a good pilot?
The reason Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants and many other professions and trades command the wages and social standing they do is becuase they have been through a gruelling selection / grading process.
Now if aviation made it harder to become a pilot by ensuring that only the good get through, then and only then will the wages will increase. Until then, pilots will have to come to terms with the fact that selection only occurs once you have spent your £60/70/80, 000 and you start hunting for those poorly paid jobs.
Even if you do make it, there are very few pilots (if any) out there who work as hard and are challenged as often as a doctor / lawyer / accountant / design engineer. Those few earn good money and rightly so (especially since those types of jobs invaribaly mean antisocial hours and hostile environments).
Droopystop
I had a good laugh at your last post!!
Lawyers are only paid so much because they work in a subsidised industry - what was the last legal aid bill - £2 billion+ out of a total tax take of £487Billion. Take away legal aid and lawyers pay would plummet.
Accountants can only see the price of something not its value - my company has recently given volunteer redundancy to some pilots as the accountants said we had lost a contract so didn't need the pilots, however, the next day operations offered them all contract work as we are short of pilots!!!!
"Those few earn good money and rightly so (especially since those types of jobs invariably mean antisocial hours and hostile environments)."
When did you last see an accountant or lawyer in a hostile environment working anti social hours (try a rig radar approach down to 200ft and 3/4nm in a 55kt wind on Xmas Day?)
Doctors and Design engineers I have no problem with.
In the offshore industry I work in, I value myself above lawyers and accountants but on a par with Docs and engineers as we, all do jobs, which benefit others.
After all if there were no lawyers and accountants would the world stop - no (in fact would we notice). Without Docs, you may die and without pilots to fly the workers and engineers to get the oil out you would be living in a cold house and have to walk to work. (Alternatively, hire a lawyer to carry you on his back
)
To be a pilot I went through a stiff selection (300+ applicants for 6 RAF cadetships) and out of my course 50% failed.
HF
(I also have a BSc Eng)
I had a good laugh at your last post!!
Lawyers are only paid so much because they work in a subsidised industry - what was the last legal aid bill - £2 billion+ out of a total tax take of £487Billion. Take away legal aid and lawyers pay would plummet.
Accountants can only see the price of something not its value - my company has recently given volunteer redundancy to some pilots as the accountants said we had lost a contract so didn't need the pilots, however, the next day operations offered them all contract work as we are short of pilots!!!!
"Those few earn good money and rightly so (especially since those types of jobs invariably mean antisocial hours and hostile environments)."
When did you last see an accountant or lawyer in a hostile environment working anti social hours (try a rig radar approach down to 200ft and 3/4nm in a 55kt wind on Xmas Day?)
Doctors and Design engineers I have no problem with.
In the offshore industry I work in, I value myself above lawyers and accountants but on a par with Docs and engineers as we, all do jobs, which benefit others.
After all if there were no lawyers and accountants would the world stop - no (in fact would we notice). Without Docs, you may die and without pilots to fly the workers and engineers to get the oil out you would be living in a cold house and have to walk to work. (Alternatively, hire a lawyer to carry you on his back
)To be a pilot I went through a stiff selection (300+ applicants for 6 RAF cadetships) and out of my course 50% failed.
HF
(I also have a BSc Eng)
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I knew someone would have a go at accountants and lawyers!! But it is not accountants fault that industry thinks that they make good managers of businesses they don't intimately understand. They should stick to diddling the tax man (legally of course)!!
I am sorry but there is no way that I consider any pilot to be of the same callibre as a doctor, architect or indeed design engineer. We all have something to offer and are an important cog in the machine of society, but most work alot harder for their pennies and careers than pilots do.
I am sorry but there is no way that I consider any pilot to be of the same callibre as a doctor, architect or indeed design engineer. We all have something to offer and are an important cog in the machine of society, but most work alot harder for their pennies and careers than pilots do.
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My advice to any young person... Get a trade... I trained as a carpenter for four years on pretty crap money working two jobs,But now i am making good money and can mostly fly when i like..
I no of a few guys who have trades and intruct in the weekends.. they can pay all their loans off, have money to live on ,and get hours up in the weekends.. and only at the age of 25yrs...
I no of a few guys who have trades and intruct in the weekends.. they can pay all their loans off, have money to live on ,and get hours up in the weekends.. and only at the age of 25yrs...
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Droopystop
I appreciate your comments about lawyers (better informed than the anti-lawyer rants which frequently appear on Pprune) but I still think you under-rate a professional pilot's qualifications.
I seen no reason why professional pilots shouldn't have the same 'social standing' and pay as a degree trained professional.
You're right that doctors and lawyers take longer to qualify, but the difference isn't as quite great as the 'years' suggest. The 4 academic years actually amount to 4 x 26 weeks = 2 years.
'Degree trained'?
There was a time when having a degree really meant something; now it depends upon what degree and which 'university'.
"The current training system in aviation allows virtually anyone with a handful of dollars to become a professional pilot."
The same is now true of getting a degree. When I was a student, only 4% of school leavers got into university. Since the government decided on a target of 50%, and decided all colleges should be called 'universities', anyone who really wants a degree would have to be really thick not to be able to get some degree from somewhere or other.
"Money is just about the only means of selection."
The same selection process applies to many of the new universities. A couple of E's at 'A' level and funds to get through three academic years (about six months each) will get you onto some course somewhere.
"How relevant is that to being a good pilot?"
How relevant is having a degree to being a good pilot? How is an ability to excel in the academic sphere (even assuming a degree from a good university) relevant to being a good pilot? People see the practical side of the work of doctors and lawyers, but it also involves a significant amount of studying behind the scenes throughout your career so, unless you have an academic ability, you won't succeed at the practical.
"Now if aviation made it harder to become a pilot by ensuring that only the good get through, then and only then will the wages will increase."
How would requiring a degree ensure that only good pilots get through? Assuming we're talking about good universities, then all it would prove is academic ability.
I have no doubt whatsoever that someone capable of obtaining an ATPL is more than capable of getting a degree - and I don't just mean daft courses at (now called) universities.
I fully agree with you about the experience aspect. I often read newly-qualified FIs saying their hourly rate/annual income should be commensurate with what it's cost them to qualify. That's a great idea, but unrealistic IMHO.
Hummingfrog
Well done on getting your B.Sc. Eng. It's not immediately obvious from the level of reasoning in your post how you managed it, but good for you.
"Lawyers are only paid so much because they work in a subsidised industry"
I doubt if you'll allow the facts to get in the way of your ill-informed prejudices but, FWIW,if I get paid per day when I do publicly funded work what I get per hour when doing 'free market' privately paid work, I'm happy. I choose to do some aviation work for pilots at publicly funded rates or less (or for nothing in appropriate cases), but that's a different matter and my choice.
Assuming you're correct about the the last legal aid bill, and using the academic and intellectual skills your degree implies, how does the total legal aid bill enable you determine how much individual lawyers doing publicly funded work are paid, or form an informed opinion about whether they are overpaid?
"Take away legal aid and lawyers pay would plummet."
No doubt that's why lawyers in America where there's virtually no publicly funded work are famously poor.
Publicly funded work is the worst paid of all legal work.
"Accountants can only see the price of something not its value"
Yes. I'm sure airlines and other aviation companies would work much more efficiently and profitably if they were run by pilots.
"When did you last see a .... lawyer in a hostile environment working anti social hours"
We don't work in hostile environments, but if you think lawyers we don't work anti-social hours you don't know much about our jobs. Perhaps you think barristers only work when the courts are sitting.
Nobody needs lawyers?
I can think of a few pilots still working, and the families of pilots killed in accidents, who'd disgaree with you.
Nobody needs lawyers - until they need one.
Heliseka
I disagree. It depends upon the youngster.
Two brothers I know have recently made that decision, both deciding to become plumbers.
For the younger one, it's a good choice. Lovely lad, but thick. (Failing every single GCSE takes some doing.) I'm sure he'll be very happy, particularly if he qualifies before the number of plumbers increases and they will no longer be able to charge astronomical rates.
The elder brother is bright. Good GCSE grades, but dropped out of school during his 'A' level course, abandoning all plans to go to university because he was fed up of studying and wants money now.
I hope he changes his mind before it's too late. We all have different strengths and, unless he ends up in a job which challenges his brain power/intellectual capacity, I believe he'll end up very frustrated when the fun of earning good money while young has passed.
I appreciate your comments about lawyers (better informed than the anti-lawyer rants which frequently appear on Pprune) but I still think you under-rate a professional pilot's qualifications.
I seen no reason why professional pilots shouldn't have the same 'social standing' and pay as a degree trained professional.
You're right that doctors and lawyers take longer to qualify, but the difference isn't as quite great as the 'years' suggest. The 4 academic years actually amount to 4 x 26 weeks = 2 years.
'Degree trained'?
There was a time when having a degree really meant something; now it depends upon what degree and which 'university'.
"The current training system in aviation allows virtually anyone with a handful of dollars to become a professional pilot."
The same is now true of getting a degree. When I was a student, only 4% of school leavers got into university. Since the government decided on a target of 50%, and decided all colleges should be called 'universities', anyone who really wants a degree would have to be really thick not to be able to get some degree from somewhere or other.
"Money is just about the only means of selection."
The same selection process applies to many of the new universities. A couple of E's at 'A' level and funds to get through three academic years (about six months each) will get you onto some course somewhere.
"How relevant is that to being a good pilot?"
How relevant is having a degree to being a good pilot? How is an ability to excel in the academic sphere (even assuming a degree from a good university) relevant to being a good pilot? People see the practical side of the work of doctors and lawyers, but it also involves a significant amount of studying behind the scenes throughout your career so, unless you have an academic ability, you won't succeed at the practical.
"Now if aviation made it harder to become a pilot by ensuring that only the good get through, then and only then will the wages will increase."
How would requiring a degree ensure that only good pilots get through? Assuming we're talking about good universities, then all it would prove is academic ability.
I have no doubt whatsoever that someone capable of obtaining an ATPL is more than capable of getting a degree - and I don't just mean daft courses at (now called) universities.
I fully agree with you about the experience aspect. I often read newly-qualified FIs saying their hourly rate/annual income should be commensurate with what it's cost them to qualify. That's a great idea, but unrealistic IMHO.
Hummingfrog
Well done on getting your B.Sc. Eng. It's not immediately obvious from the level of reasoning in your post how you managed it, but good for you.
"Lawyers are only paid so much because they work in a subsidised industry"
I doubt if you'll allow the facts to get in the way of your ill-informed prejudices but, FWIW,if I get paid per day when I do publicly funded work what I get per hour when doing 'free market' privately paid work, I'm happy. I choose to do some aviation work for pilots at publicly funded rates or less (or for nothing in appropriate cases), but that's a different matter and my choice.
Assuming you're correct about the the last legal aid bill, and using the academic and intellectual skills your degree implies, how does the total legal aid bill enable you determine how much individual lawyers doing publicly funded work are paid, or form an informed opinion about whether they are overpaid?
"Take away legal aid and lawyers pay would plummet."
No doubt that's why lawyers in America where there's virtually no publicly funded work are famously poor.
Publicly funded work is the worst paid of all legal work.
"Accountants can only see the price of something not its value"
Yes. I'm sure airlines and other aviation companies would work much more efficiently and profitably if they were run by pilots.
"When did you last see a .... lawyer in a hostile environment working anti social hours"
We don't work in hostile environments, but if you think lawyers we don't work anti-social hours you don't know much about our jobs. Perhaps you think barristers only work when the courts are sitting.
Nobody needs lawyers?
I can think of a few pilots still working, and the families of pilots killed in accidents, who'd disgaree with you.
Nobody needs lawyers - until they need one.
Heliseka
I disagree. It depends upon the youngster.
Two brothers I know have recently made that decision, both deciding to become plumbers.
For the younger one, it's a good choice. Lovely lad, but thick. (Failing every single GCSE takes some doing.) I'm sure he'll be very happy, particularly if he qualifies before the number of plumbers increases and they will no longer be able to charge astronomical rates.
The elder brother is bright. Good GCSE grades, but dropped out of school during his 'A' level course, abandoning all plans to go to university because he was fed up of studying and wants money now.
I hope he changes his mind before it's too late. We all have different strengths and, unless he ends up in a job which challenges his brain power/intellectual capacity, I believe he'll end up very frustrated when the fun of earning good money while young has passed.