Is pilot job market picking up at all??
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KAG
if you read my post once more, you'll find out, I used 10.000-20.000 and 100.000 from the start.
And guardian and wikipedia is very reliable source. Like most reliable of all you could find.
As I said earlier. Put operation on hold for couple of months, stop hiring pilots - on thing.
Companies going bankrupt, firing people, very experienced pilots can get a job, and it stay this way for 3 years - totally different.
2 easy questions:
1. If there was none high oil price, but there was global crisis, would aviation still be as bad as it is today? (answer is yes btw).
2. If there was high oil-prices for a while, but none global crisis, would situation be as bad as it is today? (answer is no, not even close).
And you can argue and trying to prove your self as much as you want. Did high oil prices had influence on aviation? Yes.
Was it high oil prices that killed aviation for 3 years? No, that was global crisis. And THATS IT.
cheers matey
stuckgear
Take a look at jobs, there IS companies looking for people with low hours. And I, my self, do know people getting into cockpit after CFI and working in Africa.
if you read my post once more, you'll find out, I used 10.000-20.000 and 100.000 from the start.
And guardian and wikipedia is very reliable source. Like most reliable of all you could find.
As I said earlier. Put operation on hold for couple of months, stop hiring pilots - on thing.
Companies going bankrupt, firing people, very experienced pilots can get a job, and it stay this way for 3 years - totally different.
2 easy questions:
1. If there was none high oil price, but there was global crisis, would aviation still be as bad as it is today? (answer is yes btw).
2. If there was high oil-prices for a while, but none global crisis, would situation be as bad as it is today? (answer is no, not even close).
And you can argue and trying to prove your self as much as you want. Did high oil prices had influence on aviation? Yes.
Was it high oil prices that killed aviation for 3 years? No, that was global crisis. And THATS IT.
cheers matey
stuckgear
Take a look at jobs, there IS companies looking for people with low hours. And I, my self, do know people getting into cockpit after CFI and working in Africa.
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cefey,
i've 16 years in this industry, and am currently in discussion on a job down in Africa. i've also lived there before. I think I have a better handle on reality than you do.
if this is a demonstration of your ability to process situational information, i'm sorry, but as a commercial pilot your career is going to be short.
i've 16 years in this industry, and am currently in discussion on a job down in Africa. i've also lived there before. I think I have a better handle on reality than you do.
if this is a demonstration of your ability to process situational information, i'm sorry, but as a commercial pilot your career is going to be short.
Last edited by stuckgear; 12th Mar 2011 at 08:30.
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So if there is 250hr type rated pilot from a good FTO or 1000hr single engine instructing etc. pilot, who would the airline go for?
I am sure there is a shortage of pilots, but highly qualified pilots with type rating on various types and airline experience etc., dont think there will ever be shortage of newbies.
I am sure there is a shortage of pilots, but highly qualified pilots with type rating on various types and airline experience etc., dont think there will ever be shortage of newbies.
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Hi!
KAL, China, Emirates, Qatar, etc. DESPERATE for pilots.
T&Cs for the China contract positions have been going up, up, up.
Most regional airlines in the US are now filling only half of their new-hire classes. ALL of them have lowered their minimums. Some do not have ANY published minimums any more.
American, the airline in the US that has not hired for the longest time of any US airline, announced that they will run through their list of 1800 furloughees and begin hiring this year. USAir is hiring, Southwest is hiring, CAL/UAL will recall all furloughees and begin hiring as soon as the merger is straightened out.
Intntl cargo is going crazy and companies are adding airframes and crews as fast as possible.
In the US, new Flight/Duty/Rest rules go into affect prior to 1 Aug, and it will cause all carriers to need additonal crew: For example, at my airline, which is a very good one (I LOVE my job!), we will need 25% more pilots to cover the flying with the new rules. We are adding LOTS of planes. The new requirement for ALL Part 121 new-hires to posses the ATP (NOT a frozen ATPL, and NOT just the written tests) will go into affect 1 Aug 2013. ANY new hire FO in ANY -121 airlines will need a full ATP to sit in the right seat!
And, the pilot hiring tsunami has just begun!
KAL, China, Emirates, Qatar, etc. DESPERATE for pilots.
T&Cs for the China contract positions have been going up, up, up.
Most regional airlines in the US are now filling only half of their new-hire classes. ALL of them have lowered their minimums. Some do not have ANY published minimums any more.
American, the airline in the US that has not hired for the longest time of any US airline, announced that they will run through their list of 1800 furloughees and begin hiring this year. USAir is hiring, Southwest is hiring, CAL/UAL will recall all furloughees and begin hiring as soon as the merger is straightened out.
Intntl cargo is going crazy and companies are adding airframes and crews as fast as possible.
In the US, new Flight/Duty/Rest rules go into affect prior to 1 Aug, and it will cause all carriers to need additonal crew: For example, at my airline, which is a very good one (I LOVE my job!), we will need 25% more pilots to cover the flying with the new rules. We are adding LOTS of planes. The new requirement for ALL Part 121 new-hires to posses the ATP (NOT a frozen ATPL, and NOT just the written tests) will go into affect 1 Aug 2013. ANY new hire FO in ANY -121 airlines will need a full ATP to sit in the right seat!
And, the pilot hiring tsunami has just begun!
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superstorm
relaxe, I will
Just like friends of mine did. No, dont be jealous
stuckgear
I do respect what you have achieved. And all your experience.
But perhaps we have different perspectives.
You see on "getting a job", from point of view of experienced guy.
I see it from "fresh-certified" pilot. People I do know, is quite "fresh" as well and they got jobs.
Please dont make any kind of assumptions, like how my carrier gonna be. That dont make you look like a professional pilot with 16 years in industry.
And again, I DO KNOW people, getting hired now. Why on earth do you try to convince me, about "its impossible to get a job". I know about several people that getting jobs, right now.
I have monitored job marked pretty closely for the last 2 years. Everything, from jobs at BA, KLM, SAS and to CFI jobs in US, Australia or jobs in Africa.
Market IS getting better and better. Minor, major companies, CFI. There IS a need for more pilots. Requirements is getting lower and lower.
relaxe, I will
Just like friends of mine did. No, dont be jealous stuckgear
I do respect what you have achieved. And all your experience.
But perhaps we have different perspectives.
You see on "getting a job", from point of view of experienced guy.
I see it from "fresh-certified" pilot. People I do know, is quite "fresh" as well and they got jobs.
Please dont make any kind of assumptions, like how my carrier gonna be. That dont make you look like a professional pilot with 16 years in industry.
And again, I DO KNOW people, getting hired now. Why on earth do you try to convince me, about "its impossible to get a job". I know about several people that getting jobs, right now.
I have monitored job marked pretty closely for the last 2 years. Everything, from jobs at BA, KLM, SAS and to CFI jobs in US, Australia or jobs in Africa.
Market IS getting better and better. Minor, major companies, CFI. There IS a need for more pilots. Requirements is getting lower and lower.
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KAG
if you read my post once more, you'll find out, I used 10.000-20.000 and 100.000 from the start.
if you read my post once more, you'll find out, I used 10.000-20.000 and 100.000 from the start.
And guardian and wikipedia is very reliable source. Like most reliable of all you could find.
As I said earlier. Put operation on hold for couple of months, stop hiring pilots - on thing.
Companies going bankrupt, firing people, very experienced pilots can get a job, and it stay this way for 3 years - totally different.
Companies going bankrupt, firing people, very experienced pilots can get a job, and it stay this way for 3 years - totally different.
2 easy questions:
1. If there was none high oil price, but there was global crisis, would aviation still be as bad as it is today? (answer is yes btw).
1. If there was none high oil price, but there was global crisis, would aviation still be as bad as it is today? (answer is yes btw).
2. If there was high oil-prices for a while, but none global crisis, would situation be as bad as it is today? (answer is no, not even close).
And you can argue and trying to prove your self as much as you want. Did high oil prices had influence on aviation? Yes.
Was it high oil prices that killed aviation for 3 years? No, that was global crisis. And THATS IT.
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It just shows you have no clue, and you don't know which number to chose. It could be 1000 or 500 aswell. Where did you get you number: 25 airlines going to bankrupcy from?
As I said earlier (hey, you supposed to be proff. pilot? Why do I need to type same thing over and over again? No wonder marked is so bad for you... Explains quite a lot), Depends WHAT you call for airlines. 1 "Dash-8" or "at least 5 B737". Since you gave no nubmers what so ever, its very hard for me to specify.
Indeed, I dont have a clue (just like you), what your source is calling for "airline". Might as well be c-210, for all we know?
I asked you to specify, but you didnt
Where did you get you number: 25 airlines going to bankrupcy from?
at least twenty-five airlines world-wide entered bankruptcy or were forced to cease operations.
And just to make it clear (I know its hard with lack of logic), to make it easier and not guessing, who go bankrupt, who had to cease operation, I count all of them as "bankrupt" or you can call it "bad times" for whole 25 companies...
Did you forget to mention the IATA source on purpose, or you have memory probs?
God, really, how on earth did you become pilot? Or did you...?
Yes it is.
Answer NO: The lower is the oil price, the lower is the airfare, the more people buy tickets, the more the airline flies (or the less they ground airplanes). In addition have a look at the airlines profit, and the link with the fuel price.
Oil prices goes up by 100%, tickets up by 30%.
My vacation budget is 1000-2000$. Where tickets stands for 100-200$.
If tickets now will cost 130-260 (whole vacation package price will be 1030-2060) will I cancel my vacation?
Even if ticket price get dobbled (for that, Oil have to be 3x average price), will I cancel whole vacation (price will be 2200, instead of 2000), or will I just cut down on something else?
For sure, some people MAY cancel vacation. 90% will go somewhere cheaper.
Will that affect airliners THAT much, as you claim? No, not at all.
So, with other words, you mean, global crisis, that affected basically every singe company in the world and around 70-80% of population in i-countries, did NOT affect whole aviation industry what so ever?!
I laugh and cry (of laughter)))))))Let me repeat. From your own post, whole 25 airlines, had bad times during first half of 2008.
End of 2009 - "a few more" companies experiencing bad time, ceasing operation. NO ONE hiring, its almost impossible even to get CFI job.
You know, its kind of like comparing: someone clap you on the chin (high oil prices) and then someone hit you on the head with baseball bat (crisis). And you gonna clame, that its clap that caused the brain damage.
Chin clap can be very hard and nasty. But you can never compare it to a good hit with the bat... So please, stop doing it
Was it high oil prices that killed aviation for 3 years? No, that was global crisis. And THATS IT.
High price induced a lot of airline bankrupcy till july 2008 with fuel price at $147. When the price went down (down to something like $25/30), thanks to the recession in 2009, much less companies went to bankrupcy.
High price induced a lot of airline bankrupcy till july 2008 with fuel price at $147. When the price went down (down to something like $25/30), thanks to the recession in 2009, much less companies went to bankrupcy.
Oil prices really affected 25 companies.
Prob. more companies had unpleasant times, but nothing big. But, out of your own post (IATA-source), only 25 companies worldwide, was forced to cease operation or go bankrupt, during that time.
So what we ended up with? High oil-prices DID had impact on aviation. But it was only 25 companies that was affected major.
So, where aviation is today, was not caused by high oil-price back then. That affected maybe 1%. Lets even say 10%. But you still have 90% because of crisis.
So, if we gonna again have such high prices, will that "kill" aviation, like CRISIS did? No. It may give bad times for 6 months or even a year. But then it will be fine.
So it absolutely wrong, to claim that "oil prices is picking up again, aviation gonna be dead". Well, maybe companies gonna stop expending and stop HIRING for some time (while high oil prices, 6-12 months). But then good trend will continue.
Sure, it will be slightly more competitivity for a job, since it was little hiring for a year. But low-hour pilot will NOT have to compete with some1 with 15000hrs on type.
So marked is not that bad, unless you think we gonna have new global crisis.
PS: Im sorry if somewhere I was disrespectful or rued. I felt you stated that tone. And I dont like to type same thing n-times and people just ignoring it, and keep asking same question.
No offence.
john_smith
Thank you for your post. Its really nice to see (for a change), someone just saying their opinion and not claiming to know everything.
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Sure I do. It shows at least I have SOME numbers, counter your... Nothing? Well, if I have no clue, then lets not even mention you..
As I said earlier (hey, you supposed to be proff. pilot? Why do I need to type same thing over and over again? No wonder marked is so bad for you... Explains quite a lot), Depends WHAT you call for airlines. 1 "Dash-8" or "at least 5 B737". Since you gave no nubmers what so ever, its very hard for me to specify.
Indeed, I dont have a clue (just like you), what your source is calling for "airline". Might as well be c-210, for all we know?
I asked you to specify, but you didnt
As I said earlier (hey, you supposed to be proff. pilot? Why do I need to type same thing over and over again? No wonder marked is so bad for you... Explains quite a lot), Depends WHAT you call for airlines. 1 "Dash-8" or "at least 5 B737". Since you gave no nubmers what so ever, its very hard for me to specify.
Indeed, I dont have a clue (just like you), what your source is calling for "airline". Might as well be c-210, for all we know?
I asked you to specify, but you didnt
From your own post. I guess you lack not only basic logic, but memory as well. Bad, bad combo for pilot...
at least twenty-five airlines world-wide entered bankruptcy or were forced to cease operations.
And just to make it clear (I know its hard with lack of logic), to make it easier and not guessing, who go bankrupt, who had to cease operation, I count all of them as "bankrupt" or you can call it "bad times" for whole 25 companies...
at least twenty-five airlines world-wide entered bankruptcy or were forced to cease operations.
And just to make it clear (I know its hard with lack of logic), to make it easier and not guessing, who go bankrupt, who had to cease operation, I count all of them as "bankrupt" or you can call it "bad times" for whole 25 companies...
Although Peak oil theorists such as David Goodstein, Richard Heinberg, and others, had for years predicted sharp declines in air travel following the peaking of world oil production and its subsequent decline, air travel enjoyed robust growth around much of the world spurred by low jet fuel costs starting in the mid-1980s. For example, air travel in the United States grew five times faster than population in the decades after 1978, with 769 million passengers boarding U.S. airline flights in 2007.[36] However, the run-up in oil prices after 2003 began eroding airline profits, and the further doubling of oil prices from May 2007 to May 2008 began to have a substantial impact on airline operations, forcing airlines to reduce flight schedules, and pushing weaker carriers into merger or bankruptcy. During the first half of 2008, at least twenty-five airlines world-wide entered bankruptcy or were forced to cease operations.
April 2008 began with four small airlines (Aloha Airlines, Champion Air, ATA Airlines and Skybus Airlines) ceasing operations in a period of a week. A fifth airline, Oasis Hong Kong Airlines ceased operations on April 9, 2008.[40] A sixth airline, Frontier Airlines filed for bankruptcy on April 11, 2008 to protect itself from its credit card processing company which was withholding airline ticket revenues. Frontier continues to operate under Chapter 11 and is working to get a new agreement with said company. Eos Airlines, a small specialty carrier with high costs, ceased operations on April 27, 2008. An eighth airline Nationwide Airlines ceased operations on April 29, 2008, due to the "impossibility" of profitably operating the Boeing 737-200 with oil prices of over $133 a barrel. The 737-200 is a 30 year old aircraft that is 30% less fuel efficient than new production 737's. On May 9, 2008, a ninth airline, EuroManx announced that it was ceasing all operations, citing rising fuel prices and reduced passenger numbers as the reasons.
Let's review the example they give when they speak about what kind of airline went to bankruptcy:
Aloha Airlines 22 Boeing 737
Champion Air 16 Boeing 727
ATA Airlines 29 Boeing 737/757 DC10/Lockheed L-1011-500 Tristar
Skybus Airlines 17 Airbus 319, 62 in order
Oasis Hong Kong Airlines 5 Boeing 747 (and some in order when went to bankrupcy)
Frontier Airlines 50 Airbus, some embraer. (after this company went to bankrupcy an other one bought it.
Eos Airlines 6 Boeing 757
airline Nationwide Airlines 17 Boeing 737/727/767
2 points:
-If we take the numbers only from the few example they give us (and not the total 25 airlines they are thinking about), we already have 170 Boeing Airbus, so around 1500 pilots affected whitin 6 months. Do you realize what we are talking about in this article, what kind of airlines? Do you know what is 1500 pilots within 6 months? And I took only the few examples of the bankrupcy they gave, that's bot the entire list, and of course we don't mention all the airlines who didn't go to bankruptcy but got rid of part of their pilot.
-If you took your information (25 airlines went to bankrupcy within 6 months, first half of 2008) from this article, do you realise how much ridiculous are your numbers, like 100 000, 20 000 or 10 000 airlines?
Do you know the total number of Boeing/Airbus that are flying right now around the world?
Your calculations are completely crazy, they come from nowhere, yet you gave them to all of us as a FACT. Wake up.
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Nope, cause I count IATA as reliable source. Which is quite logic... and quite logic that I dont mention it?
God, really, how on earth did you become pilot? Or did you...?
God, really, how on earth did you become pilot? Or did you...?
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Yes it is.
Edit for spelling.
Last edited by KAG; 13th Mar 2011 at 21:28.
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I did ticket calculation for you several times. Even of oil-price go up by 30%, prices on tickets will go up by 10% (approximate).
Oil prices goes up by 100%, tickets up by 30%.
My vacation budget is 1000-2000$. Where tickets stands for 100-200$.
If tickets now will cost 130-260 (whole vacation package price will be 1030-2060) will I cancel my vacation?
Even if ticket price get dobbled (for that, Oil have to be 3x average price), will I cancel whole vacation (price will be 2200, instead of 2000), or will I just cut down on something else?
For sure, some people MAY cancel vacation. 90% will go somewhere cheaper.
Will that affect airliners THAT much, as you claim? No, not at all.
So, with other words, you mean, global crisis, that affected basically every singe company in the world and around 70-80% of population in i-countries, did NOT affect whole aviation industry what so ever?! I laugh and cry (of laughter)))))))
Oil prices goes up by 100%, tickets up by 30%.
My vacation budget is 1000-2000$. Where tickets stands for 100-200$.
If tickets now will cost 130-260 (whole vacation package price will be 1030-2060) will I cancel my vacation?
Even if ticket price get dobbled (for that, Oil have to be 3x average price), will I cancel whole vacation (price will be 2200, instead of 2000), or will I just cut down on something else?
For sure, some people MAY cancel vacation. 90% will go somewhere cheaper.
Will that affect airliners THAT much, as you claim? No, not at all.
So, with other words, you mean, global crisis, that affected basically every singe company in the world and around 70-80% of population in i-countries, did NOT affect whole aviation industry what so ever?! I laugh and cry (of laughter)))))))
Let me repeat. From your own post, whole 25 airlines, had bad times during first half of 2008.
End of 2009 - "a few more" companies experiencing bad time, ceasing operation. NO ONE hiring, its almost impossible even to get CFI job.
You know, its kind of like comparing: someone clap you on the chin (high oil prices) and then someone hit you on the head with baseball bat (crisis). And you gonna clame, that its clap that caused the brain damage.
Chin clap can be very hard and nasty. But you can never compare it to a good hit with the bat... So please, stop doing it
End of 2009 - "a few more" companies experiencing bad time, ceasing operation. NO ONE hiring, its almost impossible even to get CFI job.
You know, its kind of like comparing: someone clap you on the chin (high oil prices) and then someone hit you on the head with baseball bat (crisis). And you gonna clame, that its clap that caused the brain damage.
Chin clap can be very hard and nasty. But you can never compare it to a good hit with the bat... So please, stop doing it
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Well, that exactly what Ive been telling you.
Oil prices really affected 25 companies.
Prob. more companies had unpleasant times, but nothing big. But, out of your own post (IATA-source), only 25 companies worldwide, was forced to cease operation or go bankrupt, during that time.
Oil prices really affected 25 companies.
Prob. more companies had unpleasant times, but nothing big. But, out of your own post (IATA-source), only 25 companies worldwide, was forced to cease operation or go bankrupt, during that time.
Have a look again at the IATA article, they mention nowhere 25 companies:
2nd June 2008 IATA
The International Air Transport Association (IATA) revised its industry financial forecast for 2008 significantly downwards to a loss of US$2.3 billion. The forecast uses a consensus oil price of US$106.5 per barrel crude (Brent). This is a swing of US$6.8 billion from the previously forecasted industry profit of US$4.5 billion that was announced in March and based on an average oil price of US$86 per barrel (Brent).
“For every dollar that the price of fuel increases, our costs go up by US$1.6 billion,” said Giovanni Bisignani, IATA Director General and CEO at the Association’s 64th Annual General Meeting and World Air Transport Summit (WATS/AGM) which opened today in Istanbul, Turkey.
The industry’s total fuel bill in 2008 is expected to be US$176 billion (based on oil at US$106.5 per barrel) accounting for 34% of operating costs. This is US$40 billion more than the 2006 bill which was US$136 billion (29% of operating costs). In 2002, the bill was US$40 billion, equal to 13% of costs.
“We also need to take a reality check. Despite the consensus of experts on the oil price, today’s oil prices make the US$2.3 billion loss look optimistic. For every dollar that the oil price increases, we add US$1.6 billion to costs. If we see US$135 oil for the rest of the year, losses could be US$6.1 billion,” said Bisignani.
“The situation has changed dramatically in recent weeks. Oil skyrocketing above US$130 per barrel has brought us into uncharted territory. Add in the weakening global economy and this is yet another perfect storm,” said Bisignani.
“Oil is changing everything. There are no easy answers. In the last six years, airlines improved fuel efficiency by 19% and reduced non-fuel unit costs by 18%. There is no fat left. To survive this crisis, even more massive changes will be needed quickly. Air transport is a catalyst for US$3.5 trillion in business and 32 million jobs. This is an extraordinary crisis with the potential to re-shape the industry with impacts throughout the global economy. Governments, industry partners and labour must deliver change,” said Bisignani.
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So, where aviation is today, was not caused by high oil-price back then. That affected maybe 1%. Lets even say 10%. But you still have 90% because of crisis.
So, if we gonna again have such high prices, will that "kill" aviation, like CRISIS did? No. It may give bad times for 6 months or even a year. But then it will be fine.
So it absolutely wrong, to claim that "oil prices is picking up again, aviation gonna be dead". Well, maybe companies gonna stop expending and stop HIRING for some time (while high oil prices, 6-12 months). But then good trend will continue.
Sure, it will be slightly more competitivity for a job, since it was little hiring for a year. But low-hour pilot will NOT have to compete with some1 with 15000hrs on type.
So marked is not that bad, unless you think we gonna have new global crisis.
Sure, it will be slightly more competitivity for a job, since it was little hiring for a year. But low-hour pilot will NOT have to compete with some1 with 15000hrs on type.
So marked is not that bad, unless you think we gonna have new global crisis.
PS: Im sorry if somewhere I was disrespectful or rued. I felt you stated that tone. And I dont like to type same thing n-times and people just ignoring it, and keep asking same question.
No offence.
No offence.
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18/03/2008 DHI Adam Air
25/03/2008 QSC African Safari Airways
30/03/2008 Freedom Air
30/03/2008 Airclass Airways
31/03/2008 JAA Japan Asia Airways
29/04/2008 NTW Nationwide Airlines
28/04/2008 AAH Aloha Airlines
02/04/2008 AMT ATA Airlines
09/04/2008 OHK Oasis Hong Kong Airlines
27/04/2008 ESS Eos Airlines
20/04/2008 VCX Ocean Airlines
07/04/2008 SKB Skybus Airlines
05/04/2008 SYW Skyway Airlines
11/04/2008 SWX Swazi Express Airways
03/05/2008 Mihin Lanka
13/05/2008 AOL Angkor Airways
09/05/2008 EMX Euromanx
13/05/2008 FEA Far Eastern Air Transport
23/05/2008 Club Air
30/05/2008 SLR Silverjet
31/05/2008 CCP Champion Air
10/06/2008 Magnicharters
11/06/2008 Aerocondor
16/07/2008 Yeti Airlines
21/07/2008 Ankair
21/07/2008 One-Two-Go
29/07/2008 Riau Airlines
13/08/2008 GCO Gemini Air Cargo
04/08/2008 SER Aerocalifornia
05/08/2008 Avolar
05/08/2008 Nova Air
28/08/2008 OOM Zoom Airlines
28/08/2008 UKZ Zoom Airlines (UK)
09/09/2008 FUA Futura International Airways
09/09/2008 FGL Futura Gael
11/09/2008 Air Bee
12/09/2008 XLA XL Airways UK
15/09/2008 APKX Air Pack Express
15/09/2008 AeBal
17/09/2008 Dalavia Russia
06/10/2008 Galaxy Airlines (Japan)
09/10/2008 Lagunair Spain
16/10/2008 Flysur Spain
17/10/2008 LTE Spain
17/10/2008 Omskavia
17/10/2008 Interavia
17/10/2008 Tesis
17/10/2008 Vyborg Airlines
18/10/2008 Hansung Airlines
20/10/2008 Flysur
21/10/2008 Aladia (Mexico)
29/10/2008 Sterling AirwaysAirlines
31/10/2008 Air Comet (Chile)
31/10/2008 Kras Air
01/11/2008 Domodedovo Airlines
08/11/2008 Alma (Mexico)
11/11/2008 Inter Airlines (Turkey)
01/12/2008 European Aviation Aircharter
01/12/2008 Primaris Airlines
01/12/2008 Siem Reap Airways International
03/12/2008 Flightline
06/12/2008 OK Air
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And I took only the few examples of the bankrupcy they gave, that's bot the entire list, and of course we don't mention all the airlines who didn't go to bankruptcy but got rid of part of their pilot.
Alpi Eagles 8 foker 100, 2 boeing
AirClass Airways 1 boeing.
Omskavia 3 Tu154
Vyborg Airlines 2 Il
Siem Reap Airways International - 3 airplanes
In that article, it said, 25 companies, went bankrupt OR ceased their operation. So, it was 25 companies that went bankrupt. "25" is including ceased operation.
So, out of 5 companies I googled, 60 pilots lost their jobs (3 pilots for 1 airplane).
You must have used quite much time, to find companies with 16 or even 50 airplanes
) Too bad PPRuNe Towers towers published the list and I could google it(So, 25 companies WORLDWIDE going bankrupt. Biggest on is 50 airplanes, smallest one is 1 airplane. Average is like 10? No exactly something you call major airliner.
So it seems like your wiki-article is counting for airliners, any companies that have 1 or more jets.
So, how many companies around the world, own at least 1 jet-plane? For sure more then 10.000.
To compare, in 2006 SAS had around 2500 pilots. Since then they have increased their fleet quite much.
So, all pilots that lost their jobs, due to high oil-prices is something like 1 major company.
Now, lets think for a while. Do companies go bankrupt from time to time? Sure they do.
So, oil-crisis just killed 25 minor companies, that already had big issues?
And as a result, no one hiring for 3 years, not even pilots with 2000+hrs on type.
I still stand by my word.
Did doble in oil price had impact in aviation? Yes.
Is situation we have today, caused by that? No, global crisis have to take the blame.
90% global crisis, 10% oil prices.
Do you want to be my best friend and get me a job? Ill buy you a beer. What do you like, Guinness or Corona?
Cheers
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Originally Posted by cefey
Did doble in oil price had impact in aviation? Yes.
Is situation we have today, caused by that? No, global crisis have to take the blame.
90% global crisis, 10% oil prices.
Is situation we have today, caused by that? No, global crisis have to take the blame.
90% global crisis, 10% oil prices.
Expensive oil doesn't just add to the price of an air ticket, it also makes it more expensive to get to work, to buy food, to heat your house - in short it takes a good chunk out of discretionary expenditure. Hint: discretionary expenditure is what pays the salaries of most pilots.
Why was it then, that the first neighbourhoods in US cities that started seeing house price declines were the exurbs (the most distant from the city centres)? And why is it that those worst hit continue to be the sprawliest, most spread out cities.
Why also were countries that had no sub-prime lending also hit by the recession (eg Japan)?
-----
I've also seen well-reasoned arguments that the financial crisis was a result of previously-very-cheap oil. The argument goes that cheap oil led to 2 decades of cheap transport costs, which led to the worlds manufacturing being moved to China. The vast amount of cheap unskilled factory labour available led to constant economic growth in rich countries without causing inflation. Low inflation led to cheap (and hence easy) money. All was going well until oil started becoming less cheap.
It's an interesting theory, not sure I agree with it, but it seems a plausible explanation.
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But Cefey, you already say you have an interview lined up for 3 companies, on the Norwegian forum! Why you need help to find a job?
How you reckon 3 pilots for each aircraft?
I am no expert but would think 1 aircraft would at least keep 6 to 10 pilots in work, I am sure someone here are more expert then me on this could probably elaborate better on this.
Also it is not just companies going out of business that has caused loss of jobs, also companies cutting down on staff, and some changing to P2F schemes, means less people to fill those jobs, that normally would have been FO jobs.
Get some real knowledge and life experience before you make such school boy comments!
You talk about SAS increasing their fleet so much, so how many pilots have they hired since 2006?
More aircraft, are you calculating this as they took over wideroe and got SAS Braathen?
You need to improve your maths or history lessons!
How you reckon 3 pilots for each aircraft?
I am no expert but would think 1 aircraft would at least keep 6 to 10 pilots in work, I am sure someone here are more expert then me on this could probably elaborate better on this.
Also it is not just companies going out of business that has caused loss of jobs, also companies cutting down on staff, and some changing to P2F schemes, means less people to fill those jobs, that normally would have been FO jobs.
Get some real knowledge and life experience before you make such school boy comments!
You talk about SAS increasing their fleet so much, so how many pilots have they hired since 2006?
More aircraft, are you calculating this as they took over wideroe and got SAS Braathen?
You need to improve your maths or history lessons!
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Cefey = Troll.... or idiot.... or both?
Its not impossible to get a job no. But you may feel differently about aviation as a career in 5-10 years time when your T&Cs are in the dirt and you can't support the lifestyle your family wants.
There have been many like Cefey in the past... will be many like him in the future...
Its not impossible to get a job no. But you may feel differently about aviation as a career in 5-10 years time when your T&Cs are in the dirt and you can't support the lifestyle your family wants.
There have been many like Cefey in the past... will be many like him in the future...
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Dear Cefey,
get your license then we can speak man to man...
if you want my point of view, you will be better if you forget this job-hobby.
I am not saying it 's not for you, I am saying than wanabes going on this path, will soon have their face in the dirt, with a pile of debt on their head.(Their face will be smashed in thousand of pieces so heavy their debt will be...)
even if you find a job, for how long? what pay? under what condition,...what kind of **** life you will get.and think you will have to pay back 1000 euro a month for over 10 years, and make maybe no money.
Want sleep in your car?, or stay with your mom or dad all your life because you are unable to make a living by yourself when 20 yo guys from university are studding to become doctor, lawer or engineer and they will all make money to feed their family?.
Or you can still stay with your little girlfriend, and your girlfriend will feed you with her own money when you stay all day long at home looking for a job and she will quit you because you are a pilot loser like many of us.
you will never cut back your "investment".at 40 or even 30 , you will be jobless like many.you think you will be lucky, ahah, heared that many times. why don't you send your cv to SAS, they are waiting for you.
or finnair, they say they have a pilot shortage.
this profession is dead, more experience you have , less attractive you become thanks to these P2F scams.
it' s like kids who want be "F1" driver or hollywood star or #1 tennis player... forget about it.
get real, get a life,...
get your license then we can speak man to man...
if you want my point of view, you will be better if you forget this job-hobby.
I am not saying it 's not for you, I am saying than wanabes going on this path, will soon have their face in the dirt, with a pile of debt on their head.(Their face will be smashed in thousand of pieces so heavy their debt will be...)
even if you find a job, for how long? what pay? under what condition,...what kind of **** life you will get.and think you will have to pay back 1000 euro a month for over 10 years, and make maybe no money.
Want sleep in your car?, or stay with your mom or dad all your life because you are unable to make a living by yourself when 20 yo guys from university are studding to become doctor, lawer or engineer and they will all make money to feed their family?.
Or you can still stay with your little girlfriend, and your girlfriend will feed you with her own money when you stay all day long at home looking for a job and she will quit you because you are a pilot loser like many of us.
you will never cut back your "investment".at 40 or even 30 , you will be jobless like many.you think you will be lucky, ahah, heared that many times. why don't you send your cv to SAS, they are waiting for you.
or finnair, they say they have a pilot shortage.this profession is dead, more experience you have , less attractive you become thanks to these P2F scams.
it' s like kids who want be "F1" driver or hollywood star or #1 tennis player... forget about it.
get real, get a life,...
