Oxford Air Training
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Nimbus can now learn valuable lesson, appropriate to others. In this business, don't bull****. It is too tight, there are too many people who know people who know the truth, and also know people who will be vital to your career later on!
There are a lot of people who post on PPRuNe who work in the training system or recruit those coming out of the other side. There are also a lot who post on issues relating to that without knowing much about what they are talking about.
There are a lot of people who post on PPRuNe who work in the training system or recruit those coming out of the other side. There are also a lot who post on issues relating to that without knowing much about what they are talking about.
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The title of this thread says it all: “A positive post for OAT”; the definitive part is the “A” part of the sentence i.e. not “another”, not “more” etc,
I have read the posts by particularly Scroggs and Alex Whittingham and these distil the essentials of what the wary Wannabee should know about the various major league players in the FTO market in the Anglo-centric world.
It comes down to a couple of points related to fools:
1. “ they are soon parted from their money”
2. “in life one is born every minute and in aviation training, one every second”
I would venture to say that the fools make the most noise about their mistakes and encourage those of a similar persuasion to join them in their folly, the wise keep their own counsel, look at the pertinent advice that is given and keeping it to themselves steal a march on the more gullible wannabee.
However, one can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink. I don’t know how much time and energy I have spent giving people cautionary advice, to only see them go off and get badly burned when they ignore it. I often wonder what incredible pearls of wisdom is imparted by those operators that I have warned people about, even implored them not to risk their money with and what to they do – they go and do it anyway, so why to I waste my time I wonder?
If I could only have a small 10% commission of the money that they have wasted contrary to my advice I would be well off.
The best part on PPRuNe is that one can get a lot of good, non-biased information that is relevant and it will save people money, heartache and disillusion if you look at it properly without the blinkers. However it doesn’t seem to be able to match the hypnotic allure and persuasion from the spin-doctors. But we all listened too, and voted for, Tony didn’t we (and on that I not saying which one; or maybe I mean both!)?
I have read the posts by particularly Scroggs and Alex Whittingham and these distil the essentials of what the wary Wannabee should know about the various major league players in the FTO market in the Anglo-centric world.
It comes down to a couple of points related to fools:
1. “ they are soon parted from their money”
2. “in life one is born every minute and in aviation training, one every second”
I would venture to say that the fools make the most noise about their mistakes and encourage those of a similar persuasion to join them in their folly, the wise keep their own counsel, look at the pertinent advice that is given and keeping it to themselves steal a march on the more gullible wannabee.
However, one can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink. I don’t know how much time and energy I have spent giving people cautionary advice, to only see them go off and get badly burned when they ignore it. I often wonder what incredible pearls of wisdom is imparted by those operators that I have warned people about, even implored them not to risk their money with and what to they do – they go and do it anyway, so why to I waste my time I wonder?
If I could only have a small 10% commission of the money that they have wasted contrary to my advice I would be well off.
The best part on PPRuNe is that one can get a lot of good, non-biased information that is relevant and it will save people money, heartache and disillusion if you look at it properly without the blinkers. However it doesn’t seem to be able to match the hypnotic allure and persuasion from the spin-doctors. But we all listened too, and voted for, Tony didn’t we (and on that I not saying which one; or maybe I mean both!)?
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So what exactly does that last post tell us? That people who speak in a quite unnecessarily complicated way, slipping in proberbs metaphors and all those other things we tried to leave at school here there and everywhere are the kind of people that annoy us no-end?
No doubt this post of mine will be swiftly followed by a reply of a smiliar nature but never mind, I'm sure it'll have as much substance as the first. Why is it that people who've been to a particular FTO and then recommend based on their own first-hand experience are branded fools? Everyone has an opinion and in my experience so far the person who has the lesser hours in their logbook is just another deluded newbie who needs his or her hand holding.
I appologise in part for this post, I am a little tired and maybe a little cranky too but the amount of advice forced rather than given when asked for on here can be a little tedious.
No doubt this post of mine will be swiftly followed by a reply of a smiliar nature but never mind, I'm sure it'll have as much substance as the first. Why is it that people who've been to a particular FTO and then recommend based on their own first-hand experience are branded fools? Everyone has an opinion and in my experience so far the person who has the lesser hours in their logbook is just another deluded newbie who needs his or her hand holding.
I appologise in part for this post, I am a little tired and maybe a little cranky too but the amount of advice forced rather than given when asked for on here can be a little tedious.
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Hedges,
The thread started by Muddy Boots seemed to be a fairly decent and objective discussion with many former and wannabe OAT students contributing both positive and negative comments about their experience. It was then merged with your very one sided tirade. Scroggs rightly states that merging threads is a common practice on PPrune, but I don't accept that it should have been done to keep it from becoming all about OAT. Based on the title, I would expect it to be all about OAT. This is why I say it has become a joke. Perhaps Scroggs' intention was to keep it from being overly positive about OAT though I don't think it was nor would it have lasted long had it been. If anything, merging the two threads brought balance to the one you started.
I don't understand why some think it strange I have been absent for a few days. I think most posters here, including yourself, have a life outside PPrune that needs tending from time to time. To answer Alex's question, the training I am considering is uprading a CPL/IR to fATPL by doing ATPL theory and MCC. Sorry, but there is no sinister plot.
The thread started by Muddy Boots seemed to be a fairly decent and objective discussion with many former and wannabe OAT students contributing both positive and negative comments about their experience. It was then merged with your very one sided tirade. Scroggs rightly states that merging threads is a common practice on PPrune, but I don't accept that it should have been done to keep it from becoming all about OAT. Based on the title, I would expect it to be all about OAT. This is why I say it has become a joke. Perhaps Scroggs' intention was to keep it from being overly positive about OAT though I don't think it was nor would it have lasted long had it been. If anything, merging the two threads brought balance to the one you started.
I don't understand why some think it strange I have been absent for a few days. I think most posters here, including yourself, have a life outside PPrune that needs tending from time to time. To answer Alex's question, the training I am considering is uprading a CPL/IR to fATPL by doing ATPL theory and MCC. Sorry, but there is no sinister plot.
Last edited by Nimbus5; 26th Feb 2006 at 00:21.
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Muddy Boots
I have been rereading a few things, and have to correct a serious mispprehension that you seem to have.
This is not your PPL any more! These are not registered training facilities, they are approved FTOs, closely monitored by the CAA. Some of the small schools do extremely well in the CAA inspections.
I have known a few FTOs, as there have been 6 in Bournemouth (including one still run in a nissen hut, by men in smart shirts, with a good reputation) in the time I lived there, unsurprisingly with the qualities of the airport for training. Apart from one specific aircraft, bought by a now-defunct company under difficult circumstances (when JAA first came in all companies suddenly needed complex singles for CPL completion, and Arrows were like rocking-horse manure) I have not known any to have problems keeping their fleets running. The small companies keep their student numbers to manageable levels (and turn away students rather than overburden their system) and therefore avoid any more delay than the large ones.
In fact, looking back to when I did my training (with the defunct FTO), at the then largest, best-known FTO of 3 or 4 in Bournemouth, we had the least impressive fleet - PA-44s instead of Be-76s and an Arrow as old as I was as compared to a brand new Arrow III or a Beech Sierra.
The small company always has something to prove, the large guys can sit and wait for the money to roll in by inertia!
Nimbus
Sorry, but that makes no sense at all!
Where did you get the idea that only former and wannabe OAT students should post? As you said Muddy started it, but he did not specifically request that, nor would that be normal for a PPRuNe thread.
You suggest that you were expecting negative comments as well as positive. Why do you not accept a post that is entirely negative, and complain it is one-sided? Muddy's post is completely one-sided itself, entirely positive! Why is that post more relevant than Hedges's (which at least had the virtue of being almost entirely a description of his experience, rather than repetition of what he had been told but could not really know at his stage)?
If you have a CPL/IR then surely there is no decision to make. Integrated training seems a poor enough choice for a self-sponsored ab initio pilot, but it is ridiculous if you have significant experience, let alone a CPL/IR! You only require the ground exams. Why consider an integrated course?
By the way, quoting Oxford's pay level of £34k for instructors as a reason they are so expensive does not take account of the fact that this is normal for well-qualified instructors. The people teaching you will not be the same as those PPL instructors on any CPL or IR course.
I have been rereading a few things, and have to correct a serious mispprehension that you seem to have.
Those are the schools that charge 30k less and have a/c that go u/s suddenly, can you come back tomorrow... (Which is what my PPL experience was)
I have known a few FTOs, as there have been 6 in Bournemouth (including one still run in a nissen hut, by men in smart shirts, with a good reputation) in the time I lived there, unsurprisingly with the qualities of the airport for training. Apart from one specific aircraft, bought by a now-defunct company under difficult circumstances (when JAA first came in all companies suddenly needed complex singles for CPL completion, and Arrows were like rocking-horse manure) I have not known any to have problems keeping their fleets running. The small companies keep their student numbers to manageable levels (and turn away students rather than overburden their system) and therefore avoid any more delay than the large ones.
In fact, looking back to when I did my training (with the defunct FTO), at the then largest, best-known FTO of 3 or 4 in Bournemouth, we had the least impressive fleet - PA-44s instead of Be-76s and an Arrow as old as I was as compared to a brand new Arrow III or a Beech Sierra.
The small company always has something to prove, the large guys can sit and wait for the money to roll in by inertia!
Nimbus
Sorry, but that makes no sense at all!
Hedges,
The thread started by Muddy Boots seemed to be a fairly decent and objective discussion with many former and wannabe OAT students contributing both positive and negative comments about their experience. It was then merged with your very one sided tirade.
The thread started by Muddy Boots seemed to be a fairly decent and objective discussion with many former and wannabe OAT students contributing both positive and negative comments about their experience. It was then merged with your very one sided tirade.
You suggest that you were expecting negative comments as well as positive. Why do you not accept a post that is entirely negative, and complain it is one-sided? Muddy's post is completely one-sided itself, entirely positive! Why is that post more relevant than Hedges's (which at least had the virtue of being almost entirely a description of his experience, rather than repetition of what he had been told but could not really know at his stage)?
I will most likely choose Modular
By the way, quoting Oxford's pay level of £34k for instructors as a reason they are so expensive does not take account of the fact that this is normal for well-qualified instructors. The people teaching you will not be the same as those PPL instructors on any CPL or IR course.
Last edited by Send Clowns; 26th Feb 2006 at 12:55. Reason: To take account of Nimbus's edit
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Nimbus, you said this:
So you are now going to spend a lot of money to get ATPL theory exam passes. Why the 
did you not take the ATPL wriitens in the first place? It would have saved you lots of money and time??????
With this in mind why choose to go intergrated then????
As previously said
To answer Alex's question, the training I am considering is uprading a CPL/IR to fATPL by doing ATPL theory and MCC. Sorry, but there is no sinister plot.
did you not take the ATPL wriitens in the first place? It would have saved you lots of money and time??????With this in mind why choose to go intergrated then????
As previously said
don't bull****
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by Nimbus5
The thread started by Muddy Boots seemed to be a fairly decent and objective discussion with many former and wannabe OAT students contributing both positive and negative comments about their experience. It was then merged with your very one sided tirade. Scroggs rightly states that merging threads is a common practice on PPrune, but I don't accept that it should have been done to keep it from becoming all about OAT. Based on the title, I would expect it to be all about OAT. This is why I say it has become a joke. Perhaps Scroggs' intention was to keep it from being overly positive about OAT though I don't think it was nor would it have lasted long had it been. If anything, merging the two threads brought balance to the one you started.
The thread started by Muddy Boots seemed to be a fairly decent and objective discussion with many former and wannabe OAT students contributing both positive and negative comments about their experience. It was then merged with your very one sided tirade. Scroggs rightly states that merging threads is a common practice on PPrune, but I don't accept that it should have been done to keep it from becoming all about OAT. Based on the title, I would expect it to be all about OAT. This is why I say it has become a joke. Perhaps Scroggs' intention was to keep it from being overly positive about OAT though I don't think it was nor would it have lasted long had it been. If anything, merging the two threads brought balance to the one you started.
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I cant help thinking that this indusrty seems to be so similar to that of music?! 
- in terms of getting that shiny jet job
I mean all the critics love to criticise and condem all those 'manufactured' pop artists and so on these forums there is always criticism for the 'elitism' that is OAT and the other institutions pumping out pilots onto jets!
Take my comparison;
The 'traditional' almost oldskool approach;
Music Bands form, practice for years, do all the gigs around pubs & clubs for years, then they get their lucky break or their experience & fan base grows to get them featured nationally; then they live their dream!
For pilots you spend years working and saving up; dish out 30k whilst working to do a modular course. Then go join a turbo-prop small regional operator. Once enough experience is made; then off to the RHS of a shiny jet.
The zero to hero approach;
You sign up to Pop Idol, go through a tough selection procedure, get trained to sing*, make it through the manufactured pop school, public loving you, record label loving you, then live the dream!
For pilots you go through a tough selection procedure, dosh out 60K (either a huge loan or daddys wallet), manufactured pilot in a year, through the school contacts youre put into the RHS of a shiny jet.
*debatable!
The 2 approaches seem so identical?!?
- in terms of getting that shiny jet jobI mean all the critics love to criticise and condem all those 'manufactured' pop artists and so on these forums there is always criticism for the 'elitism' that is OAT and the other institutions pumping out pilots onto jets!
Take my comparison;
The 'traditional' almost oldskool approach;
Music Bands form, practice for years, do all the gigs around pubs & clubs for years, then they get their lucky break or their experience & fan base grows to get them featured nationally; then they live their dream!
For pilots you spend years working and saving up; dish out 30k whilst working to do a modular course. Then go join a turbo-prop small regional operator. Once enough experience is made; then off to the RHS of a shiny jet.
The zero to hero approach;
You sign up to Pop Idol, go through a tough selection procedure, get trained to sing*, make it through the manufactured pop school, public loving you, record label loving you, then live the dream!
For pilots you go through a tough selection procedure, dosh out 60K (either a huge loan or daddys wallet), manufactured pilot in a year, through the school contacts youre put into the RHS of a shiny jet.
*debatable!
The 2 approaches seem so identical?!?
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is it not about time that Nimbus5 was banned then?
Scroggs, I would also suggest checking out Muddy Boots ip address as well, would not surprise me if he/ she was at OAT as well. Apologies Mr boots if you are not.
Indeed it would I think be an interesting execise to check up on all the ppruners who put positive posts in for OAT. Reading such posts, it is strange the way that a lot of people leap to OATs defence, as if any criticism of the place is some kind of mortal insult. Perhaps there is something alltogether more sinister going on?
So we have possibly another thing to add to the list of questionable marketing tactics used by OAT.
Posing as innocent wannabes in this forum to further mislead people into lining their pockets. Imoral in my opinion.
King Rooney would have a field day!
Scroggs, I would also suggest checking out Muddy Boots ip address as well, would not surprise me if he/ she was at OAT as well. Apologies Mr boots if you are not.
Indeed it would I think be an interesting execise to check up on all the ppruners who put positive posts in for OAT. Reading such posts, it is strange the way that a lot of people leap to OATs defence, as if any criticism of the place is some kind of mortal insult. Perhaps there is something alltogether more sinister going on?
So we have possibly another thing to add to the list of questionable marketing tactics used by OAT.
Posing as innocent wannabes in this forum to further mislead people into lining their pockets. Imoral in my opinion.
King Rooney would have a field day!
Last edited by hedges81; 28th Feb 2006 at 16:38.
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Originally Posted by 2dmoon
Indeed when I was at Oxford certain students indeed mentioned they had been approached by management and asked to put positive posts on prune etc :
What Alex from Bristol does is very admirable and honest, posting under his real name, in the name of his employer. I may be wrong, but as far as I know there is no-one from OAT who does the same.
Come on then OAT, have the guts to officially defend ur organisation in this forum, rather than attempting to deceive people. Or maybe it is necessary for them to defend themselves covertly, as their arguments to promote/ defend themselves do not hold sufficient water to be posted in their own name?
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Originally Posted by hedges81
Reading such posts, it is strange the way that a lot of people leap to OATs defence, as if any criticism of the place is some kind of mortal insult.
Its like forking out loads of dosh for something like a car; and random people going thats ****, youre ****! You'd get very insecure & start defending your choice!
If you banned the oat ISP- you'd probably end up shutting off all the studes in halls!
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OAT experience
Thought I'd start by saying I do not work for OAT, I am a former student of theirs and for all the time I was there the management line was that pprune was a waste of time. (I guess it was all that OAT bashing that did it.)
I am a former APP student and thought the course was excellent - I thought overall all the tuition was top quality and, on the rare occasion when I had a problem, this was always sorted out in an adult and professional way.
The modular students get the same ground school and flight instructors so there should be no difference - and as far as I could tell the reasons for choosing modular or integrated were almost always personal, rather than being a case of one route better than the other.
I think the key really is to choose a school and a method (modular or integrated) that maximises your own chances of getting first time passes. There's no point in being integrated if you have 10 resits when you might have done better being a modular student. But clearly I can't make full comments on other schools or on the modular route since I have no experience of either. I can say that the route I chose worked well for me and that I enjoyed it.
If you are thinking of training why not ring up or email the pilot recruitment people at airlines and ask what sort of low hours pilots they are looking for. That's what I did and I discovered that the airline I wanted most to work for has a policy not to take on low hours modular students (which is still in place), although they will take on modular pilots with full ATPLs. Now I am working there, I think it's a stupid policy but it's unlikely to change in the near future. Other airlines don't care one way or the other, which, I think, just goes to show that, whatever way you train, you won't please everyone.
I am a former APP student and thought the course was excellent - I thought overall all the tuition was top quality and, on the rare occasion when I had a problem, this was always sorted out in an adult and professional way.
The modular students get the same ground school and flight instructors so there should be no difference - and as far as I could tell the reasons for choosing modular or integrated were almost always personal, rather than being a case of one route better than the other.
I think the key really is to choose a school and a method (modular or integrated) that maximises your own chances of getting first time passes. There's no point in being integrated if you have 10 resits when you might have done better being a modular student. But clearly I can't make full comments on other schools or on the modular route since I have no experience of either. I can say that the route I chose worked well for me and that I enjoyed it.
If you are thinking of training why not ring up or email the pilot recruitment people at airlines and ask what sort of low hours pilots they are looking for. That's what I did and I discovered that the airline I wanted most to work for has a policy not to take on low hours modular students (which is still in place), although they will take on modular pilots with full ATPLs. Now I am working there, I think it's a stupid policy but it's unlikely to change in the near future. Other airlines don't care one way or the other, which, I think, just goes to show that, whatever way you train, you won't please everyone.
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This thread is hilarious. Some of the stuff you are accusing OAT of is just classic. But I'm starting to think that maybe this is abit of reverse physcology going on here......
There are a number of people here who are continually slated OAT, perhaps this is Cabair in disguise!!!! come to rescue the poor students from OATs evil grasp!!!
or maybe Jerez?? No can't be Jerez, they would have used more spanish sounding alias....
Keep up the good work guys, entertainment at its best!
There are a number of people here who are continually slated OAT, perhaps this is Cabair in disguise!!!! come to rescue the poor students from OATs evil grasp!!!
or maybe Jerez?? No can't be Jerez, they would have used more spanish sounding alias....Keep up the good work guys, entertainment at its best!
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Nimbus is dead long live the King
Firstly I do not know King Rooney in any way.
Secondly IMHO King Rooney is not the mouth piece of some other FTO.
If he is, he should remain Persona Non Grata.
On that basis can the mods reinstate King Rooney as while he may have gone about his business in a fashion not approved.
This thread proves what he was saying all along, it is not the instruction (be it ground or flight training) that is in question. I have numerous friends who have graduated from OAT and they are all very accomplished pilots.
It is the marketing spin that is used to encourage people to enrol.
At least as other people have pointed out Alex from Bristol GS (yes I went there two and a half years ago) uses his own name.
If it really is an employee or someone posting at their behest using the anonymity that this site gives you. They have done themselves a great disservice. How can we believe any post that is in support of OAT again, especially if they have a zero post count.
There will no doubt be some very good OAT graduates who may have some positve and sound advice to give in the future, and unfortuanately due to Nimbalist 5 (whoops slip of the tongue) their opinion will count for nothing.
Oxford you do not deserve the hard working intelligent students that grace your halls.
CMO
Secondly IMHO King Rooney is not the mouth piece of some other FTO.
If he is, he should remain Persona Non Grata.
On that basis can the mods reinstate King Rooney as while he may have gone about his business in a fashion not approved.
This thread proves what he was saying all along, it is not the instruction (be it ground or flight training) that is in question. I have numerous friends who have graduated from OAT and they are all very accomplished pilots.
It is the marketing spin that is used to encourage people to enrol.
At least as other people have pointed out Alex from Bristol GS (yes I went there two and a half years ago) uses his own name.
If it really is an employee or someone posting at their behest using the anonymity that this site gives you. They have done themselves a great disservice. How can we believe any post that is in support of OAT again, especially if they have a zero post count.
There will no doubt be some very good OAT graduates who may have some positve and sound advice to give in the future, and unfortuanately due to Nimbalist 5 (whoops slip of the tongue) their opinion will count for nothing.
Oxford you do not deserve the hard working intelligent students that grace your halls.
CMO
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Nimbalist 5
Crickey, not sure why I bothered now.
So are you guys saying the original poster (who asked for positive OAT experiences) is someone working for OAT? And that anyone who writes a positive post about OAT must be working for them? Especially if they are new to the site?? (I signed up yesterday).
You are all indeed thicker than you seem.
So are you guys saying the original poster (who asked for positive OAT experiences) is someone working for OAT? And that anyone who writes a positive post about OAT must be working for them? Especially if they are new to the site?? (I signed up yesterday).
You are all indeed thicker than you seem.
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Minimalist
On the 22nd Feb this was the last line of Nimbus 5's post
"Just for the record, I have not made up my mind where to train yet, but I will most likely choose Modular, maybe at OAT or maybe elsewhere. I do give them a bit more credit than you though."
Why would someone who has not yet made up there mind where to train, be posting from inside OAT.
Muddy Boots and you may well have posted in all innocence.
It is not my accusation that any positive post must have been penned by an OAT employee. It is my belief that because of the actions of a minority the voice of a great majority of honest people will now be tarred with the same brush.
If you are new to this site and your post is genuine then let me be the first to welcome you to this forum.
In the past quite a few people have spouted their opinions on this website and when the majority have disagreed with them they have simply re-registered under a different name and their first post is the same story with a slightly different spin. You may only be guilty of bad timing but to others who have been here longer than I, that is the first thing that they will think.
If you are genuine then I apologise for the insinuation.
CMO
On the 22nd Feb this was the last line of Nimbus 5's post
"Just for the record, I have not made up my mind where to train yet, but I will most likely choose Modular, maybe at OAT or maybe elsewhere. I do give them a bit more credit than you though."
Originally Posted by scroggs
Nimbus5 is indeed posting from OAT. Make of that what you will.
Scroggs
Scroggs
Muddy Boots and you may well have posted in all innocence.
It is not my accusation that any positive post must have been penned by an OAT employee. It is my belief that because of the actions of a minority the voice of a great majority of honest people will now be tarred with the same brush.
If you are new to this site and your post is genuine then let me be the first to welcome you to this forum.
In the past quite a few people have spouted their opinions on this website and when the majority have disagreed with them they have simply re-registered under a different name and their first post is the same story with a slightly different spin. You may only be guilty of bad timing but to others who have been here longer than I, that is the first thing that they will think.
If you are genuine then I apologise for the insinuation.
CMO
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Scroggs, where is Minimalist posting from? surely he/she would not be stupid enough to post again from OAT, would they?
I think it is very unlikely that someone who has been through OAT and is now working as an airline pilot would be new to this site.
I think it is very unlikely that someone who has been through OAT and is now working as an airline pilot would be new to this site.
Last edited by hedges81; 1st Mar 2006 at 20:40.