Oxford Air Training

[Dave Martin]

Re: Oxford Aviaiton "Waypoint Scheme". Yet more marketing spin.

Wbryce,

Have to say, for the first time ever I am getting interested in modular too (guess I'm a sucker for marketting).

The info on this one still seems a little vague, but it will be interesting to see how well the employment opportunites offered under the Waypoint scheme compare with the APP.

A quick back of the hand calculation shows this approach will cost about £30,000 incl. JOC, plus about another £15,000 for the first 150 hours. Still a substantial sum of money, but a little easier to cope with than the £60K odd. Seems odd that OAT is no longer offering PPL training, when I would expect demand for this would probably improve now they have created this new programme.

Regarding these delays, what exactly do you mean by this? Is this 1-6 weeks the delay before you can start, or are you talkign about missed days flying causing the training to be extended by this length of time?

[scroggs]

Re: Oxford Aviaiton "Waypoint Scheme". Yet more marketing spin.

'Marketing' - in other words, a selective presentation of statements intended to give an impression of being factual, though without necessarily being so, is used by every organisation that you guys look at, from your first trial lesson to your final longhaul employer. It's up to you to see through the hype and decide whether what's actually on offer is what you really want or need - and can afford. 'Caveat Emptor' as always.

Scroggs

[Slow Down]

I'm a British B737 FO with a major European carrier. I can honestly say none of the European Captains have heard of Oxford or Cabair. They themselves don't give a damn where you trained so long as you've got hours on type.

My advice to wannabees. Go to S. Africa / USA and get your licence the cheapest possible way, buy a type rating and some hours on type. Its not how I did it. But in todays market there are thousands of CV's on every chief pilots table and all he wants to know is are you type rated with some line experience!!

I never trained in the UK but I was a QFI at Oxford Aviation Training School for a few months. I have never seen such a robbing organisation!!

[rons22]

this is good info for inexperienced people

This is good info for inexperienced people to know before they part with £60000. I recently tried to sell OAT staff that I dont need on ebay and OAT asked ebay to block my account. I was just trying to sell the staff legally purchased in reputable pilot shop that I didn't need.

[king rooney]

rons22, your comment says it all. Surely it cant be ilegal to sell on books etc that uve finished with on e-bay, as long as you mark them as second hand.

If that was the case then second hand bookshops would not exist!

OAT actions in trying to block ur account are dispicable and imoral. Obviously all training schools are out to make a profit, but the way these boys go about their business is a complete disgrace.

In the eyes of OAT, a trainee pilot is a walking pound sign, simple as that.
You dont get anything more for your money there than at anywhere else. Who do you think pays for their adverts, marketing efforts, air conditioned, carpeted headquarters, staff pensions, share holders mercs, etc. The paying customers thats who!

At the end of the day, when stripped down, flying training costs are essentially the same where ever you go. Plane maintainance costs, fuel costs, instructor wages, etc do not vary greatly from place to place. The extra money you pay at OAT does not go towards better training but to all the unnecessary extras mentioned above, plus it helps line the partners'/ shareholders' pockets.

They're on to a nice little earner there, all at the expense of their students/ students parents.
Dont make them any richer.

With the 20/30 grand you could save by going somewhere else you could buy ur own cessna! Check it out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NO-RE...04130214QQrdZ1

[Slow Down]

Ron22

Oxford are charging £65,000 for what I paid £22,500 (0 hrs - MCC)

Go overseas and do it as cheaply as possible. And with the change buy a house have a life, rent a room, get an income to pay off outstanding debts, and if you have no luck with the job market after doing it the cheap way, buy an A320 / B737 rating for £16k, and if you have to, anothe £11k for 300 hours with Eagle Jet.

The 2 Oxford guys on my type rating course who paid £65k at Oxford, anda further £25k for a type rating with a package of hours are very very bitter about Oxford.

I never went there so I am in no way bitter towards OATS. But dont be blinded by the big names and in what they can offer you.

[Megaton]

Slow own,

QFI? Didn't think they had military instructors at OATS. Perhaps you meant FI?

Anyway, I neither attended OATS nor any integrated cse and I work for a major airline flying the Airbus. Don't believe all they tell you.

[Superpilot]

How can you be sure it was Oxford that tried to have your account blocked and not some too-much-time-to-waste lonely nosey git who thought you were infringing copyrights? Also, Ebay staff go around looking at their pages once in a while and if they sense anything dodgy they will shut down the ad. I've had completely legitimate ads closed down for reasons that I'll never know. Ebay do not disclose who was responsible for the complaint.

Although I'm currently on the D.L ATPL Course with Oxford, I am still keeping my options open about the Waypoint. I agree the courses (especially Waypoint) do come across as slightly over-marketed.

waypoint is a new Modular training course solution from OAT to enable some of the airlines with whom we work closely to consider recruiting modular graduates for their first airline job. However, they will only do so provided they achieve the required standard, but more importantly, provided they have carried out all their training with one provider - Oxford Aviation Training.

However, they will only do so provided they achieve the required standard, but more importantly, provided they have carried out all their training with one provider - Oxford Aviation Training

It is a bit of rubbish because about 90% of students DO do their modular training with the same school. Oh well, still time to decide.....

[englishal]

What really gets my goat with some of these JAA training providers, is that many send their students to the states for training, and then charge over TWICE the going rate.....in the name of JAR.

I can rent a Seneca II dual for CPL/IR/ME/whatever training in the USA for $220 per hour. Now ask what a JAA training provider will charge for the same aircraft, for an instructor with the same qualifications, for the same airspace.........

If a USA training provider can still make profit on USA prices, just think what profit the JAR boys are making......all from your pocket.

[Nimbus5]

Believing Everything You Read

Rons22,

I suspect the OAT guys are far too busy driving their Mercedes' to the bank to cash those fat checks to browse around eBay looking for listings to block. Besides, if they are making so much on the backs of young and wet behind the ears suckers with rich daddies, why would they bother with such trivial sums as what you'll get for your stuff on eBay?

Funny how King Rooney jumps straight on the OAT bashing bandwagon based on "what he read" without bothering to check the facts a bit yet he is perhaps the first one to shout at the top of his lungs that one should NOT believe everything they read!

FACT: eBay does not tell you why they remove a listing other than something generic like you broke the rules. In any case, they do not tell you who reported your alleged violation.

FACT: Anyone can report listing violations or copyright/trademark infringement on eBay.

FACT: OAT allow students to advertise their used stuff for sale on their own forums. I would place a link here, but links to other forums are not allowed so you'll have to look in the Any Other Business folder for yourself.

I just don't find rons22's claim that OAT stopped him from selling his stuff on eBay to be credible.

Maybe when Rons22 finishes eating his humble pie he can post his own advert there for free and sell the stuff to some unsuspecting kid. Heck, he could even include a little marketing hype in the advert and probably get twice as much if the kid believes everything they read as readily as King Rooney does!

[king rooney]

who else would have tried to stop him flogging the stuff?

[rons22]

negative

eBay told me if I have any questions I should contact OAT. Also, been there few times and havent seen any mercs in the car park (apart from mine).
Anyway, it doesnt bother me, OAT or not, just want to let other people know, that if they sell on ebay, be carefull and probably check with OAT whats allowed etc. or ask Nimbus for "independent" advice. The reason I was selling it on ebay was cos I wanted to give it for 10% of the original cost to some student who may need it. (humbleness is good Nimbus5)
By the way, Rooney is right, who else would try to stop the sale? Unless you (Nimbus5) are payed by OAT to police eBay as well as pprune. lol
Also, your account is very recent onhere and yet you sound so knowledgable, hmmm.

[Superpilot]

transitionlevel,

check your PM's

[boogie-nicey]

I can say for SURE that when I recently attempted to sell the Oxford ATPL questions CD, they contacted ebay who informed me that they had received some form of official and signed documentation about Copyright! In my ad I even mentioned how great Oxford study material was

These Oxford characters are indeed bad news and really think that they have some kind of exclusive ownership of aviation science that one else can teach. Anyway I shan't be sending my 2 sons there that's for sure, in fact maybe just campaign outside their gates !!!

[Muddy Boots]

Oxford Air Traiining (merged)

Dear All,

With King Rooney banned I seriously would like a positive post for OAT. I have chosen to start in the next couple of months and it would warm the cockles of my heart and soothe any nerves I have about doing the right thing. I am making a significant career change as an older student and do have some jitters about it.

I have visited several other FTOs including the immediate and obvious competitors and listened to their spin. With the B.S. filter on and open eyes I do believe that I have made the right choice with Oxford. Their course structure is good for me, 6 months in Oxford doing ground school, Goodyear Arizona for only 5 months flying and back to Oxford to finish IR, MCC and JOT. It means that I'm not changing country for a significant period of time so I can keep my social life and hopefully girlfriend too!

I felt their aircraft were good and also their sims were much more modern than a lot of the competition plus they have a 737 sim for JOT plus JOT is included in the course price which needs to be taken into account when comparing to other courses!

It is a much more mature campus and you're free to get away in the evening and arrange your own accomodation and can drink in any pub you like after you finish studying. I had a bad experience of the FTE bar being closed when I visited as a punishment to all for a party and had to drink beer from a vending machine.

Finally and most importantly, I do believe they help you find a job. No there are no guarentees but there is help. I hope I've got this right, 85% of last years grads have jobs? I heard of a story of one of their grads from one class who failed all his interviews but he was a bit of a quirky character, they took him back in and gave him some more interview training. Their assesment is more stringent than any of the other's I've been to (didn't do CTC, to old) because they want to make sure that you can get through and get a job and not spoil their succes rate.

I know its more money but you get what you pay for and as a mature student I want a good set of logs to help me get that job. I am expecting delays with flight scheduling but that apparently is par for the course everywhere.

With my tin hat on, I expect a barrage of abuse.

Muddy Boots

P.S. King Rooney did do some funny posts too, be good to have him back soon.

[Willows]

I dunno, getting the necessary qualifications under your belt is up to the individual. Just make sure you definitely get what you pay for. Be it at Oxford or X, Y, Z school.

There's no denying it's pricey but it's a nice set up they have.

[Busbo]

I think you should rest assured that your money (although quite a lot of it) is well spent at Oxford. If you have the ability and commitment to become a pilot then Oxford will help that become a reality. I think one of the biggest differences between Oxford and elsewhere is the instructors seem to be mainly ex Airline pilots themselves or at least pilots with a huge amount of exerience rather than some recent graduate hoping to build some hours before going on to bigger and better things.

With respect to availability of planes and scheduling I think it comes down to luck and whether or not your instructor pushes for them, getting his bid in early. If he's not so efficient you can always push for slots yourself, its no big deal. Of course aircraft do sometimes go tech and there's not a lot anyone can do about that but thats going to be the same story the world over, thats the nature of the business.

Throughout the course its important to get as many first time passes in anything that you can, the less retakes of anything at all you have the less reasons Oxford will have to not put you forward to airlines at the end of the course! With the airlines setting criteria they can afford to be pretty picky with the mass of unemployed guys and girls out there.

I'm not sure quite why OAT get such a bad press especially on here and mainly by people who haven't even been there! Oxford offer a damn good quality course and charge a permium price for it, its as simple as that. You wouldn't fly BA and expect to pay a Ryanair ticket price would you. I'm not saying its perfect by any means although in my experience they do take feedback on board and attempt to address any issues that arise.

Unless you're incredibly lucky wherever you train you're going to end up in a lot of debt, I personally think its worth the extra because of your job prospects after. Its all very well saving 20k or however much but if you're unemployed for a year or two after you might just pay most of that in interest before you can start earning serious bucks to pay it back. If I had to do it all over I would go to OAT again without a doubt, I cant say I didn't have single reason to complain while I was there but I can say I was happy with the overall package.

[scroggs]

The main reason that Oxford gets criticised is that they're the largest and best known. They also got lazy a few years ago, and their marketing spin was not matched by the reality - by far. That appears to be being addressed.

They are also criticised (and, by implication, so are the rest of the Integrated schools) because of the enormous price of their product, and the rate at which that price has increased. They would naturally claim that their costs have risen and they must cover them, but the huge difference between the basic costs of the same course elements through the modular system and that at Oxford (and Cabair and Jerez) is difficult to fully justify - from a consumer's point of view, rather than an accountant's.

The fact remains, though Oxford and the others would prefer it didn't, that modular students in reasonable numbers do still succeed in getting jobs in the airline industry. OAT and the others would like you to believe that you are unlikely to get a job unless you use their training; that is patently not true, and deserves to be criticised and highlighted at every opportunity.

King Rooney went about it the wrong way, but there is much merit in his message.

Scroggs

[Busbo]

I'm not sure I've heard Oxford say that Modular students on the whole do not get jobs. The impression I always got and not just from OAT was the idea that perhaps your chances were improved (rightly or wrongly). I dont want to turn this into yet another modular vs integrated argument but for a large number of airlines if you had two identical candidates in every way possible, one modular and one integrated then the integrated might sneak it. I'm not saying every airline and I'm not saying that there aren't a thousand modular people out there who'll be straight back at me here saying they were picked over 5 other integrated candidates.

Its all a matter of loading the dice in your favour, sure OAT may be a little pricey but thats a choice you've got to make, is it worth it for you the individual. The answer to that question wont be the same for everyone.

[Send Clowns]

Not a good way to start if you "...dont want to turn this into yet another modular vs integrated argument...", Busbo!

...for a large number of airlines if you had two identical candidates in every way possible, one modular and one integrated then the integrated might sneak it

Why do you say this? I know of many where the reverse would usually be the case, as the modular student is likely to have more hours. I know of arlines saying they will only take integrated but neither caring nor, seemingly, knowing when they finally select candidates. Many others simply would not know or care - it is very clear from some that they don't even know the difference, and wouldn't even recognise which course someone had been on, as it doesn't matter to them! I could also tell you at least one flying organisation that would not use integrated graduates, as the system produces pilots with the wrong attitudes for their purpose; most of their competitors are likely to find the same.

That point is the core. The (many) people I know who have found jobs in the last few months have all got their because of their attitude and personality, that is the final point and I hbave been told attitude is the reason I got this job.