Oxford Air Training
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Well done - and thanks for the report.
Why 'well done'? Because you didn't leave your critical facilities at home when you went to OAT. As you suggest, OAT's Open Day is a marketing exercise structured to make the prospective student feel privileged to be there. It's no accident that it's very similar to the induction days within the military and other large employers - but the difference is that you are paying them, not the other way round!
OAT's marketing is slick. It has to be; they want a lot more money out of you than most FTOs, and they need a lot of you. But they are a business, there to make money - and some of that money may well come to them from the airlines they send graduates to. In other words, their sales product is not only their training system, it is their graduates - though not to the extent it is with CTC.
Nevertheless, you are the paying customer and if what you see doesn't float your boat (or is outside your realistic budget) remember there are plenty of credible options. Oxford is a very good school, but it's not the only one. As some airlines boast, 'we always remember you have a choice'!
Scroggs
Why 'well done'? Because you didn't leave your critical facilities at home when you went to OAT. As you suggest, OAT's Open Day is a marketing exercise structured to make the prospective student feel privileged to be there. It's no accident that it's very similar to the induction days within the military and other large employers - but the difference is that you are paying them, not the other way round!
OAT's marketing is slick. It has to be; they want a lot more money out of you than most FTOs, and they need a lot of you. But they are a business, there to make money - and some of that money may well come to them from the airlines they send graduates to. In other words, their sales product is not only their training system, it is their graduates - though not to the extent it is with CTC.
Nevertheless, you are the paying customer and if what you see doesn't float your boat (or is outside your realistic budget) remember there are plenty of credible options. Oxford is a very good school, but it's not the only one. As some airlines boast, 'we always remember you have a choice'!
Scroggs
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When you say exactly the same thing what do you mean by that? Are you talking FOF, MCC, JOT and the careers service afterwards which although it has been a bit dodgy in the past I beleive its improving all the time. Aswell as the instructors all being more experienced so quite rightly commanding a higher wage packet. Also the facilites are very good and no doubt cost more to build than some other schools and more to maintain. No doubt OAT do make a pretty penny out of each an every one of us but its not quite as clear cut as they make 30k more than other other schools do.
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No doubt OAT do make a pretty penny out of each an every one of us but its not quite as clear cut as they make 30k more than other other schools do.
Oxford's overheads are certainly greater than most schools, which does go some way to explaining their prices. Some of the excess is also down to Oxford's perception of its own reputation - and the fact that they will charge what the market will bear, as will any on-the-ball organisation. In fact, it's probably fair to say that Oxford's prices determine the market rate. I doubt that the price is arrived at on a 'cost plus' basis, except to check that all conceivable costs are covered. In fact, I'd love to know what Oxford's margin is. I'll bet it's more than any airline's!
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Sure, no problem. What I mean is that some people seem to think that OAT are absoloutly no different to any other school and therefor the extra 30k or however much depending on who you're comparing them too is all profit, I just cant see how this could be true and am sure it isn't. I suspect you're right in that their profit margin is no doubt amongst the highest, in fact I'd be suprised if there were a higher. The fact is that they offer a premium product at a premiuim price, possibly a little more than a premium price. You do get the feeling that some of the course fees go towards things you'd rather they didn't because they dont affect you much like the seemingly constant rebuilding of offices, classrooms, canteen etc. Just how much difference does moving these rooms around actually make?!
I think Oxford offer more than any other school and charge more than any other....plus a little extra. Overall though I'd say that people of the younger generation do tend to waste money on some useless junk and I'd say there were better places to spend a bit of excess money than investing in your future. Dont get the wrong impression of me though, I dont have thousands of pounds burning a hole in my pocket all the time, I'm in debt for the whole course fee plus my type rating so its not a decision I took lightly.
I think Oxford offer more than any other school and charge more than any other....plus a little extra. Overall though I'd say that people of the younger generation do tend to waste money on some useless junk and I'd say there were better places to spend a bit of excess money than investing in your future. Dont get the wrong impression of me though, I dont have thousands of pounds burning a hole in my pocket all the time, I'm in debt for the whole course fee plus my type rating so its not a decision I took lightly.
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OK, I understand what you're getting at. I was a little worried that you thought OAT's FIs were getting 30k more than anyone else's!
I don't doubt that some of OAT's expenditure is little more than window-dressing. Every organisation with something to sell does it to some extent. On the other hand, I am sure that much of it is spent in order to provide the best learning environment they can. Naturally, there will be more than one opinion on what constitutes the best learning environment, but that's why there's more than one school to look at.
Do they offer more than any other school? Well, that's what you have to decide for yourself. It may well be that they offer more than you need or want. It may be in some areas they don't offer enough for your needs. I hope your choice works out well for you - and I hope the debt doesn't cripple you for too long!
Scroggs
I don't doubt that some of OAT's expenditure is little more than window-dressing. Every organisation with something to sell does it to some extent. On the other hand, I am sure that much of it is spent in order to provide the best learning environment they can. Naturally, there will be more than one opinion on what constitutes the best learning environment, but that's why there's more than one school to look at.
Do they offer more than any other school? Well, that's what you have to decide for yourself. It may well be that they offer more than you need or want. It may be in some areas they don't offer enough for your needs. I hope your choice works out well for you - and I hope the debt doesn't cripple you for too long!
Scroggs
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Critical Faculty?
Scroggs,
Yes Hedges81 took his critical faculty to OAT. From what he has written, that seems to be all he took. To me his post reads like that of one who had their mind made up already and just listened enough to jot down a few points to dress up the already planned bad report. It seems pretty clear he went in with an agenda and I hardly think the report is objective.
By the way, last time I saw instructor adverts on OAT's website, the salary was around Ģ34K. That is a hell of a lot more than self improvers get for instructing PPLs while they build hours and is probably what OAT have to pay to attract the quality of instructors they seem to have. I suspect it is some part of why they cost more, though certainly not all of it.
Yes Hedges81 took his critical faculty to OAT. From what he has written, that seems to be all he took. To me his post reads like that of one who had their mind made up already and just listened enough to jot down a few points to dress up the already planned bad report. It seems pretty clear he went in with an agenda and I hardly think the report is objective.
By the way, last time I saw instructor adverts on OAT's website, the salary was around Ģ34K. That is a hell of a lot more than self improvers get for instructing PPLs while they build hours and is probably what OAT have to pay to attract the quality of instructors they seem to have. I suspect it is some part of why they cost more, though certainly not all of it.
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If I had made my mind up I didnt want to go there before I went why did I get up a 630 in the morning, drive a 300mile round trip in a day to see the place? Before I went I had, through their brochures put OAT at the top of my prefered schools. When I arrived however I, being well versed in the world of business my self, immediately began to smell rats, and was put off the place.
If I was the owner of a flying school I would do exactly what OAT are doing, and that is why as a customer I dont want to go there!
Busbo, when I say exactly the same thing I mean fatpl with mcc, which can be found at many very good modular schools, such as stapleford for 30k. Ok, if you want a JOC as well, which is not necessary to gain employment with an airline then it might cost you a couple of grand more.
So it essentially works out that you pay say 28k more for first officer fundamentals and a career service. It d be cheaper to bribe an airline recruiter/ hire the maffia to force them to give you a job!
Im interested to hear what the First officer fundamentals course tought you when you did it?
If I was the owner of a flying school I would do exactly what OAT are doing, and that is why as a customer I dont want to go there!
Busbo, when I say exactly the same thing I mean fatpl with mcc, which can be found at many very good modular schools, such as stapleford for 30k. Ok, if you want a JOC as well, which is not necessary to gain employment with an airline then it might cost you a couple of grand more.
So it essentially works out that you pay say 28k more for first officer fundamentals and a career service. It d be cheaper to bribe an airline recruiter/ hire the maffia to force them to give you a job!
Im interested to hear what the First officer fundamentals course tought you when you did it?
Last edited by hedges81; 22nd Feb 2006 at 16:10.
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well OAT's first oroficer fundamentals is like this......
you get talked at for 2 weeks during which some of the second most boring people in the world come in and repeat themselves to you for 8 hours a day and give lots of power point presentzzzzzzzzzzzz....
oh and in the second week the most boring people in the world come in and say all the same stuff again in a slightly more mind-numbingly tedious tone...
then at the end you get to give a presentation to the latest new course on some accident that happened god knows when and god knows why and at the end of it if you're still awake you get given new wings to make you feel like a little ba pilot and bla bla bla... unless it has changed substantially over the last year that is....
sb
you get talked at for 2 weeks during which some of the second most boring people in the world come in and repeat themselves to you for 8 hours a day and give lots of power point presentzzzzzzzzzzzz....
oh and in the second week the most boring people in the world come in and say all the same stuff again in a slightly more mind-numbingly tedious tone...
then at the end you get to give a presentation to the latest new course on some accident that happened god knows when and god knows why and at the end of it if you're still awake you get given new wings to make you feel like a little ba pilot and bla bla bla... unless it has changed substantially over the last year that is....
sb
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Hedges 81,
I agree, that calling it the "APP" is probably the biggest part of their marketing spin but what's in a name, a name doesn't make you but you make a name, you can't judge a book by its cover... I could go on but don't want to be tedious! Once you turn the BS filter up to max, I still feel that OAT is offering one of the best packages around.
Also, First Officer Fundimntals is more about how airlines work and manage their fuel and schedules plus how to keep the marriage going and personal effects of flying etc. I sat in on a class and found it quite interesting, I hope that Soviet Bloc doesn't think I'm dull too, I only had one class not two weeks...
Other things that I find that Oxford give you are the CRM and Jet Orientation Course which would be quite a big cost if you paid for them later on a modular course.
One last thing, my Dad died last year and therefore isn't a "rich daddy" waiting in the wings to pay for me, I'm paying for everything out of my own pocket. (My Mother rightly inherited everything which probably means it'll go to the cats home when she pops her clogs, where's the love?)
I posted this thread because there is so much Oxford bashing going on mainly from people who haven't been there or are older and learnt to fly through the military and have had there career successes and are watching over us. I wanted to hear what current Oxford attendies and grads had to say, which by and large is positive.
Muddy Boots
I agree, that calling it the "APP" is probably the biggest part of their marketing spin but what's in a name, a name doesn't make you but you make a name, you can't judge a book by its cover... I could go on but don't want to be tedious! Once you turn the BS filter up to max, I still feel that OAT is offering one of the best packages around.
Also, First Officer Fundimntals is more about how airlines work and manage their fuel and schedules plus how to keep the marriage going and personal effects of flying etc. I sat in on a class and found it quite interesting, I hope that Soviet Bloc doesn't think I'm dull too, I only had one class not two weeks...
Other things that I find that Oxford give you are the CRM and Jet Orientation Course which would be quite a big cost if you paid for them later on a modular course.
One last thing, my Dad died last year and therefore isn't a "rich daddy" waiting in the wings to pay for me, I'm paying for everything out of my own pocket. (My Mother rightly inherited everything which probably means it'll go to the cats home when she pops her clogs, where's the love?)
I posted this thread because there is so much Oxford bashing going on mainly from people who haven't been there or are older and learnt to fly through the military and have had there career successes and are watching over us. I wanted to hear what current Oxford attendies and grads had to say, which by and large is positive.
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Muddy Boots,
no I don't think you're dull, actually I've been enjoying your posts....
and yes one day of the FOF, even 2 would be ok, but by the end of the 2 weeks I maintained that what was covered could've been done in 2 days not 2 weeks. Also the FOF does vary slightly with every course depending on which talkers can come in.... guess I was particularly unlucky - but anyway it was still poor value for money.
for those who want or need guidance on cv's or interview technique, get a book and speak to people don't line OAT's pockets at Ģ90 a day or whatever.
sb out
no I don't think you're dull, actually I've been enjoying your posts....
and yes one day of the FOF, even 2 would be ok, but by the end of the 2 weeks I maintained that what was covered could've been done in 2 days not 2 weeks. Also the FOF does vary slightly with every course depending on which talkers can come in.... guess I was particularly unlucky - but anyway it was still poor value for money.
for those who want or need guidance on cv's or interview technique, get a book and speak to people don't line OAT's pockets at Ģ90 a day or whatever.
sb out
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hedges81, assuming that you went through the brochures and therefore knew the price of the course before you attended the seminar, may I ask then exactly what you expected to find?? I am the first to say that you should visit all your possible training providers, but reading the material that OAT sent you, surely you would have known about all the facilities/aircraft/groundschool/materials etc. etc. What exactly did you expect?? 
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I think I might forget flying and instead become the Michael O'Leary of the FTO Industry. Oxford, Jerez and Cabair are in a comfort zone where they are in mutual agreement to not enage in a price competition (which is what shouldn't happen in a true competitive market). How awesome would it be for someone to come and take over say Jerez so they would have the brand "Flight Training Europe" for everyones CV's but offer it at a no frills price where there are no uniforms, no fancy brochures, no posh nosh at their open days etc. People may say "oh but they'd lose favour with the airlines". I'd say I bet it doesn't matter as airlines supposedly want integrated, pre-selected graduates which is what they'd get. The difference would be the graduates (having saved 10-20K) could afford it when the airlines say "now pay for your type rating".
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Originally Posted by hedges81
If I was the owner of a flying school I would do exactly what OAT are doing, and that is why as a customer I dont want to go there!
Hedges81,
It sounds like what you are saying is that you are an unethical business man. This seems like a logical conclusion to me as your charge against OAT seems to be they are unethical for charging what they do. Apparently the market bears it though so many others conclude differently.
The reason I wrote that you seem to have made your mind up is because you did not seem to say one good thing about them. You did mention the food they served was good, but even that must be a negative since the food cost comes out of their students' pockets. Personally, I didn't think the food was so great, chicken wings, egg rolls, samosas and finger sandwiches are not my idea of an expensive feast. So they expressed what they think are the positive merits of OAT. What did you expect them to talk about? Why you should train at Cabair?
What were you expecting of their airplanes, glass cockpits and leather seats? You can get those on CTC's very expensive modular course if you wish. You mention the logo on the tail. I wasn't aware other schools didn't have logos on their planes! Pardon my incredulity, but is this the stuff you evaluate an FTO for, their livery?
I think the most ridiculous part of your post is the way you think you know what other people were thinking. For example you claim people were told the answer they wanted to hear. How do you know what they wanted to hear? Even if you did read their minds correctly, are you then saying OAT staff lied to them?
You assume OAT has uniforms to create a military environment. Did you ask them if this is the case? Did you ask any students if they felt this was the case having been there for a while? You accuse students of sucking up. How do you know what is in their mind? You even go so far as to make the same accusation against other seminar attendees.
After all of this, you can't see why someone might read your post and come to the conclusion you had your mind made up before you went in? Do you honestly expect us to believe OAT was top of your list until five minutes into the Director's presentation? Did you really make up your mind on a gut instinct after five minutes rather than a side by side comparison of the merits of several FTOs? I think not. Rather I think you had read enough on PPrune to know that you most likely were not going to choose OAT and you went there to hear what you wanted to hear, that what you read on PPrune was all true.
Just for the record, I have not made up my mind where to train yet, but I will most likely choose Modular, maybe at OAT or maybe elsewhere. I do give them a bit more credit than you though.
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Oxford must be doing something right, else the airlines wouldn't be trying to pick their gradutes. What i do notice though is Oxford seem to spend a TREMENDOUS amount of money on marketing, I don't see why - surely if a school is good it will circulate via other medium's (word of mouth, internet etc..) I'm off to bristol gs soon, and I heard of them through a friend, not the fancy advertising I see for OAT everywhere (including the recent Airliner World article)
I agree and applaud hedges81 though, his report is well written, and does convey facts. It's all to easy to sit on pprune and object to what people say but he's taken the trouble to go and see it.
Nimbus, how can you say he made his mind up? It clearly states that "Before I went I had, through their brochures put OAT at the top of my prefered schools."
I spent a while mulling over integrated via modular, different FTO's etc, and I chose modular. I fail to see how I could pay 60k for a license i could get for 30k, AND keep my (very enjoyable) job in the process. Hell i could buy a nice MCC and A320 TR and still have enough for a new Mini Cooper. As an employer, i'd be much more impressed with someone who took time out to study in the evening, around a job, and came up with the results to prove they were worth it - Maybe that's why i won't be the next MOL..
Horgy
I agree and applaud hedges81 though, his report is well written, and does convey facts. It's all to easy to sit on pprune and object to what people say but he's taken the trouble to go and see it.
Nimbus, how can you say he made his mind up? It clearly states that "Before I went I had, through their brochures put OAT at the top of my prefered schools."
I spent a while mulling over integrated via modular, different FTO's etc, and I chose modular. I fail to see how I could pay 60k for a license i could get for 30k, AND keep my (very enjoyable) job in the process. Hell i could buy a nice MCC and A320 TR and still have enough for a new Mini Cooper. As an employer, i'd be much more impressed with someone who took time out to study in the evening, around a job, and came up with the results to prove they were worth it - Maybe that's why i won't be the next MOL..
Horgy
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Hedges81, maybe you didn't read properly my previous response to you and instead just read what you wanted to read just as you heard what you were expecting to hear at the OAT semina rather than what was said. I'm not going to write everything out again but the big difference for OAT is the quality of instructors, facilities, the lot.
I know the comparison to cars has already been made but I think its a good one so I'll use it again. I used to drive an old Ford, it never broke down and it got me everywhere I wanted to go when I wanted to go there. That said, I recently got a new car which cost over 15 times the amount I sold the Ford for and yet it does exactly the same job! I get where I want to go, when I want to go there. It doesn't have any more seats, it doesn't really have many more features and it even costs a lot more to run. So have I wasted all that money?! Are the two cars actually exactly the same and I'm just blinded by the shiny paint and delightful alloy wheels??
I'm sure I'll get plenty of stupid responses to this post but the point I'm trying to make is serious.
I think your first post which on the surface appeared to be someone giving an honest opinion of a FTO open day is actually just you enjoying spouting off and rubbishing a large proffesional organisation just because you can. Let me ask you, did you raise any of these endless criticisms at the open day or did you just save them for the safety of an anonamous forum?
I know the comparison to cars has already been made but I think its a good one so I'll use it again. I used to drive an old Ford, it never broke down and it got me everywhere I wanted to go when I wanted to go there. That said, I recently got a new car which cost over 15 times the amount I sold the Ford for and yet it does exactly the same job! I get where I want to go, when I want to go there. It doesn't have any more seats, it doesn't really have many more features and it even costs a lot more to run. So have I wasted all that money?! Are the two cars actually exactly the same and I'm just blinded by the shiny paint and delightful alloy wheels??
I'm sure I'll get plenty of stupid responses to this post but the point I'm trying to make is serious.
I think your first post which on the surface appeared to be someone giving an honest opinion of a FTO open day is actually just you enjoying spouting off and rubbishing a large proffesional organisation just because you can. Let me ask you, did you raise any of these endless criticisms at the open day or did you just save them for the safety of an anonamous forum?
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Hedges81, I take it you didn't like OAT then? Sorry about that.
Umm, where does everybody get that Oxford are 30K more expensive than everyone else? Who are you making the comparison with? I visited Jerez and they have quite an involved campus on a former military base with hangers where you could eat your dinner off the floor and a lot of white wash. They and Cabair as far as I am concerned are the only competition at this level of FTO. They are only about 5k different in price, if that. Especially when you take into account the things they don't include on the course such as FOF, JOC, interview prep and career advice.
I don't want to go to school in a WW II era nissan hut on an old airfield, where people wear grubby T-shirts, which is what a lot of UK GA is. Those are the schools that charge 30k less and have a/c that go u/s suddenly, can you come back tomorrow... (Which is what my PPL experience was). There's no comparison to the top 3 FTO's which is really the debate.
The airlines visit the top 3 FTOs and its about keeping them impressed as well as potential students.
As far as the uniforms go, you're going to have to wear one in the job, you may as well get used to it. FTE give you 6 white shirts and 3 pairs of trousers when you start, unfortunately you have to dress yourself!
Scroggs, I picked this up from one of your other postings:
You have had a fantastic career and I must admit that I am jealous, as ugly as that seems. I would just love to lick some of the aircraft you have flown let alone fly them! But as our "Slightly Bemussed Moderator" isn't your role to stop us from squabling amongst our selves rather than offer advice, especially as you have never had to have the angst of which school to choose and drop 60k at? You banned King Rooney for bashing OAT and you're not a fan either.
Muddy Boots
I hope that doesn't get me banned for a week like King Rooney!
Umm, where does everybody get that Oxford are 30K more expensive than everyone else? Who are you making the comparison with? I visited Jerez and they have quite an involved campus on a former military base with hangers where you could eat your dinner off the floor and a lot of white wash. They and Cabair as far as I am concerned are the only competition at this level of FTO. They are only about 5k different in price, if that. Especially when you take into account the things they don't include on the course such as FOF, JOC, interview prep and career advice.
I don't want to go to school in a WW II era nissan hut on an old airfield, where people wear grubby T-shirts, which is what a lot of UK GA is. Those are the schools that charge 30k less and have a/c that go u/s suddenly, can you come back tomorrow... (Which is what my PPL experience was). There's no comparison to the top 3 FTO's which is really the debate.
The airlines visit the top 3 FTOs and its about keeping them impressed as well as potential students.
As far as the uniforms go, you're going to have to wear one in the job, you may as well get used to it. FTE give you 6 white shirts and 3 pairs of trousers when you start, unfortunately you have to dress yourself!
Scroggs, I picked this up from one of your other postings:
Started as a glider pilot in 1970, at 15. Started training on jets in the RAF in 1977, age 21. Became a captain on Hercules in 1983, age 27. Became an RAF QFI (instructor) in 1987 on Bulldogs and, later, back on Hercules. Joned Virgin on the B747-200 in 1998. Moved to the A340 in 2002. Currently doing command conversion.
Have somewhere around 14000 hours (must do my logbook!), but only about 10 types: Jet Provost T3/5, Hawk, Hunter FGA9/T7, Jetstream T1, Hercules C1/K/3, Bulldog, Chipmunk, B742, A343, A346. Flown (but not operational on) several others: Lightning, VC10, Tristar, Tucano, Robin, Seneca, Chinook, Sea King, HH53, and probably a few others!
In other words: been there, done that, got the T-shirt!
Scroggs
Have somewhere around 14000 hours (must do my logbook!), but only about 10 types: Jet Provost T3/5, Hawk, Hunter FGA9/T7, Jetstream T1, Hercules C1/K/3, Bulldog, Chipmunk, B742, A343, A346. Flown (but not operational on) several others: Lightning, VC10, Tristar, Tucano, Robin, Seneca, Chinook, Sea King, HH53, and probably a few others!
In other words: been there, done that, got the T-shirt!
Scroggs
Muddy Boots
I hope that doesn't get me banned for a week like King Rooney!
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Thank you Soviet Bloc.
I do agree with you, I'm sure I'd quickly lose the will to live if the same thing was repeated to me for two weeks. Isn't that Revd. Moon use to do?
A good place I'm told in Penny Austin's to help with interview technique too! http://pilotinterviews.co.uk/
Muddy Boots
I do agree with you, I'm sure I'd quickly lose the will to live if the same thing was repeated to me for two weeks. Isn't that Revd. Moon use to do?
A good place I'm told in Penny Austin's to help with interview technique too! http://pilotinterviews.co.uk/
Muddy Boots