Oxford Air Training
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Muddy Boots,
I congratulate you on an excellent post. I’m off to the APP seminar on Saturday. I attended the Waypoint seminar late last year and was very impressed with there whole operation.
Yes, like you I’m an older pilot err’ing on the other side of thirty therefore it is deemed that one should get as much help as possible securing that first job.
Also I’m a firm believer in ‘getting what you pay for’.
I congratulate you on an excellent post. I’m off to the APP seminar on Saturday. I attended the Waypoint seminar late last year and was very impressed with there whole operation.
Yes, like you I’m an older pilot err’ing on the other side of thirty therefore it is deemed that one should get as much help as possible securing that first job.
Also I’m a firm believer in ‘getting what you pay for’.
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Muddy Boots
It sounds as though you've made the decision based on a bit of research into the various schools and for what is right for you. That is the most important as you are the only person who can say whether it is the right decision to make for yourself.
As for my experience of OAT, I can honestly say that initially I was worried about spending a bit more to go there and whether it was going to be worth it. It was the right decision for me....I had 2 great flying instructors in Scottsdale and back here for IR. The training on the MCC/JOT was really excellent, and I got help finding a job at the end of it.
One of the criticisms about OAT is sometimes the lack of help with getting a job...you can't just sit back and wait for a job offer to pop through the letter box like magic; OAT have a lot of graduates finishing throughout the year so you do need to keep in contact with them, go in for a chat once every couple of weeks to see what is around. They are more likely to recommend you to an airline if they can put a face to a name easily!
It sounds as though you've made the decision based on a bit of research into the various schools and for what is right for you. That is the most important as you are the only person who can say whether it is the right decision to make for yourself.
As for my experience of OAT, I can honestly say that initially I was worried about spending a bit more to go there and whether it was going to be worth it. It was the right decision for me....I had 2 great flying instructors in Scottsdale and back here for IR. The training on the MCC/JOT was really excellent, and I got help finding a job at the end of it.
One of the criticisms about OAT is sometimes the lack of help with getting a job...you can't just sit back and wait for a job offer to pop through the letter box like magic; OAT have a lot of graduates finishing throughout the year so you do need to keep in contact with them, go in for a chat once every couple of weeks to see what is around. They are more likely to recommend you to an airline if they can put a face to a name easily!
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Send Clowns, thats exactly the kind of response that people always give. I tried to avoid this by making clear that I was saying that if you take everything else away like the small matter of what kind of person is being interviewed then integrated MAY sneak it. I also did say that I was only talking about some airlines.
I'm sure you do know plenty of people who were modular and have jobs, good for them too.
The point I was making, and it was only a small point when this thread is not about this issue, was that no doubt unfairly some recruiters may look at whether you're integrated or modular and stick with the more tried and tested method.
I'm sure you do know plenty of people who were modular and have jobs, good for them too.
The point I was making, and it was only a small point when this thread is not about this issue, was that no doubt unfairly some recruiters may look at whether you're integrated or modular and stick with the more tried and tested method.
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Busbo
I am quite aware of what you are saying. However I can't see where you get that assumption from. I have heard no evidence of this from the people I know, graduates of both types of courses, who have jobs. However I do know that hours count.
I am quite aware of what you are saying. However I can't see where you get that assumption from. I have heard no evidence of this from the people I know, graduates of both types of courses, who have jobs. However I do know that hours count.
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Originally Posted by Busbo
I'm not sure I've heard Oxford say that Modular students on the whole do not get jobs.
...but for a large number of irlines if you had two identical candidates in every way possible, one modular and one integrated then the integrated might sneak it.
Its all a matter of loading the dice in your favour, sure OAT may be a little pricey but thats a choice you've got to make, is it worth it for you the individual. The answer to that question wont be the same for everyone.
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Dear All,
The one thing I do feel about Oxford's intergrated course is that you leave with a set of logs that can be authenticated by one phone call rather than a amalgam of hours from different FTO's and hour building which can't be verified. With my tender age being 36 I feel that the cleaner my logs appear to be the better chance of getting a job at the end I'll have. At the end of the day its not about which FTO is better but which FTO will inspire confidence in an airline to get that job. After all that's why we're making this huge investment in ourselves is to get a job rather than just training for the sake of it.
I do believe that there are a huge number of modular guys out there who are and will be better pilots than me when I graduate. They will have had more fun and flown in a greater variety of aircraft, in different airspace and weather conditions. They will have been able to keep their day jobs and home study at nights or when quiet at work and fly on the weekends. They will have had trips to the US, South Africa, New Zealand etc. as they tack the courses into their log books they need to complete their training. However they have had the time and maybe youth on their side. I want a career change but can't afford to hang arround on no income for a couple of years, I have a bar bill to pay.
I know that finding a job is down to you and you only but it does help if the school you're at has the phone numbers for the airline recruitment department and also knows who's looking this month. As for Oxford assisting the intergrated guys a little more with getting a job vs. the modular guys... I wouldn't think you could expect to do a part of your course there, maybe JOT at the end and expect to receive the same assistance as somebody who has dropped 60K plus on the place? It would be like having a drink in a hotel bar and then expecting to be able to use the spa.
Ready to be shouted at again,
Muddy Boots.
The one thing I do feel about Oxford's intergrated course is that you leave with a set of logs that can be authenticated by one phone call rather than a amalgam of hours from different FTO's and hour building which can't be verified. With my tender age being 36 I feel that the cleaner my logs appear to be the better chance of getting a job at the end I'll have. At the end of the day its not about which FTO is better but which FTO will inspire confidence in an airline to get that job. After all that's why we're making this huge investment in ourselves is to get a job rather than just training for the sake of it.
I do believe that there are a huge number of modular guys out there who are and will be better pilots than me when I graduate. They will have had more fun and flown in a greater variety of aircraft, in different airspace and weather conditions. They will have been able to keep their day jobs and home study at nights or when quiet at work and fly on the weekends. They will have had trips to the US, South Africa, New Zealand etc. as they tack the courses into their log books they need to complete their training. However they have had the time and maybe youth on their side. I want a career change but can't afford to hang arround on no income for a couple of years, I have a bar bill to pay.
I know that finding a job is down to you and you only but it does help if the school you're at has the phone numbers for the airline recruitment department and also knows who's looking this month. As for Oxford assisting the intergrated guys a little more with getting a job vs. the modular guys... I wouldn't think you could expect to do a part of your course there, maybe JOT at the end and expect to receive the same assistance as somebody who has dropped 60K plus on the place? It would be like having a drink in a hotel bar and then expecting to be able to use the spa.
Ready to be shouted at again,
Muddy Boots.
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Hi there Muddy Boots!
Firstly, let me congratulate you for your fantastic thread! I am enrolled to start on the March course at Oxford and am even more convinced that i have made the right decision.
I have visited a number of FTO's, specifically CTC and FTE, I must say that i never bothered visiting Cabair because i really didn't think it could compare with OAT. CTC was an experience, although because of my immaturity i didn't get onto their course. FTE are a fantastic school, i was offered a place with them and after visiting Oxford decided to turn them down. I was very impressed by the modern equiptment utilised by Oxford, specifically the simulators used for the mcc part of the course. I was also very impressed with their results and with their relationship with the airlines.
Although i'm a little anxious i really can't wait to start! I handed in my noticed yesterday and suddenly it's all become very real
Regards
Bozzato
Firstly, let me congratulate you for your fantastic thread! I am enrolled to start on the March course at Oxford and am even more convinced that i have made the right decision.
I have visited a number of FTO's, specifically CTC and FTE, I must say that i never bothered visiting Cabair because i really didn't think it could compare with OAT. CTC was an experience, although because of my immaturity i didn't get onto their course. FTE are a fantastic school, i was offered a place with them and after visiting Oxford decided to turn them down. I was very impressed by the modern equiptment utilised by Oxford, specifically the simulators used for the mcc part of the course. I was also very impressed with their results and with their relationship with the airlines.
Although i'm a little anxious i really can't wait to start! I handed in my noticed yesterday and suddenly it's all become very real
Regards
Bozzato
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As I have said a few times on Pprune, it really is each to their own. Some people feel that Fords are better but some people like Vauxhall's. Both will get you to your destination, but in a different manner. Exactly the same with deciding on a FTO, or integrated vs. modular. There is no right or wrong answer and no one can tell you any different because what he/she thinks is right may not feel fight to you. From what I have learned so far in this industry, is you shouldn’t be doing something if it doesn’t feel right, because it probably wont be right.
However, that said, I went down to Oxford and it just felt like the place for me. I visited and researched all the other options, just like you would do if you were investing this amount of money into something, and decided that Oxford was the correct place to go. If someone else makes a different decision from mine then that doesn’t make them a worse pilot or wrong. It just means that they are going about it a different way than me, good luck to them.
It is nice though to hear someone saying something positive about Oxford for once.
Just my "on the fence" 2pence worth
However, that said, I went down to Oxford and it just felt like the place for me. I visited and researched all the other options, just like you would do if you were investing this amount of money into something, and decided that Oxford was the correct place to go. If someone else makes a different decision from mine then that doesn’t make them a worse pilot or wrong. It just means that they are going about it a different way than me, good luck to them.
It is nice though to hear someone saying something positive about Oxford for once.
Just my "on the fence" 2pence worth
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Did King Rooney really get banned - shame.
Brillient thread, agree with alot of it, but I must say both vauxhalls and fords are rubbish although one is Clearly Inferior oTher
definitely agree with the advice to hold your ankles and don't make any noise, quite litterally in some cases one hears. I was certainly pleased to get out of there :/
Brillient thread, agree with alot of it, but I must say both vauxhalls and fords are rubbish although one is Clearly Inferior oTher
definitely agree with the advice to hold your ankles and don't make any noise, quite litterally in some cases one hears. I was certainly pleased to get out of there :/
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OAT
...Its great to read positive comments about OAT, Im new to the forum and the first threads I read when I joined were all negative things about OAT. Which sucked as I have always wanted to go to OAT and when i visited I loved the place. Really felt right for me.
Im now at the stage of visiting and researching every other option before i commit to any decision of which FTO.
So the loan, APP costs plus fees plus accommodation, how practical is it really, and how long a repayment? anyone know?
Any advice on who else I can visit, ive done Cabair and OAT, its a bit far for me to visit CTC and FTE, ive got most peoples brochures but I really wanted to fit in more open days. Probably a stupid question really,
keep the comments coming, its great to hear the positives AND the negatives, as its one hell of a big decision to make!
Andy
Im now at the stage of visiting and researching every other option before i commit to any decision of which FTO.
So the loan, APP costs plus fees plus accommodation, how practical is it really, and how long a repayment? anyone know?
Any advice on who else I can visit, ive done Cabair and OAT, its a bit far for me to visit CTC and FTE, ive got most peoples brochures but I really wanted to fit in more open days. Probably a stupid question really,
keep the comments coming, its great to hear the positives AND the negatives, as its one hell of a big decision to make!
Andy
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Originally Posted by scroggs
I said that they would like you to think that you are unlikely to get a job unless you go through their system. There is no evidence to support this that I have seenScroggs
Originally Posted by scroggs
One of the problems with this forum is that a great deal of BS is spouted by those who have little or no knowledge. As most of the readers have none either, there's a serious possibility that the BS might be believed. Busbo, can you tell me what experience you have that qualifies you to make this statement?Scroggs
That said, I did also write that they MIGHT sneak it (the job) i.e. they also MIGHT not. If I didn't write "in my opinion" before each paragraph when I should have, I apologise.
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That may well be, to be honest I'm not too up to date with that info especially as I'm genuinly not someone who's interested in joining a company as arrogant as BA. The comment I was making was related to the boring old integrated vs modular debate which has come up again.
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Too true, thank you for getting this thread back on track. I for one visited a number of schools including a weekend visiting one in Michigan and no if you're wondering I'm really not rich enough to be popping over to the US for a weekend I just really thought it warranted such a trip. It all made me feel a lot more comfortable with my choice in the end, knowing that I had looked at all possible options.
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Ive never been to Oxford, I know many that have and would have favoured doing such a course myself. I have to say that I support the integrated course, proper screening of candidates, the concept of being able to complete structured training from start to finish, in one place, to a fixed, high and recognised standard is great. I think the airlines like the idea of cadets being put under pressure to complete a course of study in a SET time frame, its says alot about a persons ability to work under pressure. Just like going to Uni and being in the real world when your employer wants you Typed and out on the line ASAP. Another added advantage for airlines is they can build a relationship with the training provider and fill jobs with people who have been through a system which is to a consistant standard. OAT got to give it to you I'm up for that
However, I decided Id go the structured Modular route, full time. Unfortunately as much as I wanted to go integrated I put my commercial hat on and thought what am I getting getting for my extra 20K or 30K? Mybe Im paying for a few doors to open, no harm in that
and a decent careers service. However, many of my friends graduated from OAT in 2001\2002 and at that time if the airlines didnt have jobs for them, not even OAT can do anything about that. What did it for me was I know the US West Coast extreamly well. I have been to Phoenix, Goodyear, Scotsdale etc many times (On another note all those going to AZ, I can recommend the George and Dragon English Pub, Downtown PHX on Central, opposite the Holiday Inn. Great night out) and know that the cost of flying in the US is almost 1\3 of that in the UK on todays exchange rates. So why are OAT going to charge me UK rates to fly while they send me to the US to save money? Just a thought.
Well, now I have a job for a carrier in Europe. Its been said once, Ill say it again nobody cares where you got ya licence. Now we are part of JAR land most of the Captains I fly with think that Oxfords something to do with the boat race . There are many foreign guys\gals flying in the UK and the HR departments cant even pronounce the name of their flight schools.
As for Fords and Vauxalls I like the comparison, however when I go to the CAA I pick my licence up from the same counter, same colour etc. If I pay for a Dawoo I get the same as the guy who paid for a Bentley. Mybe the difference is we have the same car (lets say a Dodge) but I take mine to Jiffy lube (or Halfords) to get it serviced, the other guy goes to the Dealer.
I guess in summary I would have loved to go do an integrated course. What OAT put on seems good, those that go priase the course and the airlines seem to like it. Mybe 5K is a premium worth paying but I still cant get around that 20K, and I would have been a cash customer to.
I'm up for that However, I decided Id go the structured Modular route, full time. Unfortunately as much as I wanted to go integrated I put my commercial hat on and thought what am I getting getting for my extra 20K or 30K? Mybe Im paying for a few doors to open, no harm in that
and a decent careers service. However, many of my friends graduated from OAT in 2001\2002 and at that time if the airlines didnt have jobs for them, not even OAT can do anything about that. What did it for me was I know the US West Coast extreamly well. I have been to Phoenix, Goodyear, Scotsdale etc many times (On another note all those going to AZ, I can recommend the George and Dragon English Pub, Downtown PHX on Central, opposite the Holiday Inn. Great night out) and know that the cost of flying in the US is almost 1\3 of that in the UK on todays exchange rates. So why are OAT going to charge me UK rates to fly while they send me to the US to save money? Just a thought.Well, now I have a job for a carrier in Europe. Its been said once, Ill say it again nobody cares where you got ya licence. Now we are part of JAR land most of the Captains I fly with think that Oxfords something to do with the boat race
. There are many foreign guys\gals flying in the UK and the HR departments cant even pronounce the name of their flight schools.As for Fords and Vauxalls I like the comparison, however when I go to the CAA I pick my licence up from the same counter, same colour etc. If I pay for a Dawoo I get the same as the guy who paid for a Bentley. Mybe the difference is we have the same car (lets say a Dodge) but I take mine to Jiffy lube (or Halfords) to get it serviced, the other guy goes to the Dealer.
I guess in summary I would have loved to go do an integrated course. What OAT put on seems good, those that go priase the course and the airlines seem to like it. Mybe 5K is a premium worth paying but I still cant get around that 20K, and I would have been a cash customer to.
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Originally Posted by Busbo
Firstly, there is no evidence that I have seen that they would like you to think that. Clearly it would make sense that they may as they are obviously pushing their integrated course more than the modular route but what is there to support that? If you mean the fact that they advertise the APP more than modular then what should they do, put "dont forget there's always modular" at the bottom of each brochure?
...and secondly, thank you for insinuating that I have little or no knowledge we can only aspire to such greatness. What qualifies me to make such a statement is mainly the right to express an opinion although not just an opinion I've made up without looking at all facts available to me. I'm not in touch with BAs policy now, I beleive it may have changed, but it definitly was that they only took integrated students....end of story.
BA certainly do prefer Integrated students - for those that join under the SSP scheme. However, they have in the very recent past spread the net beyond the Integrated schools. Not only that, but the majority of their recruiting is not ab-initio students, it is via the Direct Entry Pilot scheme, which requires pilots to have as little as 400 hours commercial experience - about six months in most airlines. BA express (and evidence) no preference about the kind of CPL course its DEPs have undergone.
by LAX
However, I decided Id go the structured Modular route, full time. Unfortunately as much as I wanted to go integrated I put my commercial hat on and thought what am I getting getting for my extra 20K or 30K? Mybe Im paying for a few doors to open, no harm in that and a decent careers service. However, many of my friends graduated from OAT in 2001\2002 and at that time if the airlines didnt have jobs for them, not even OAT can do anything about that.
However, I decided Id go the structured Modular route, full time. Unfortunately as much as I wanted to go integrated I put my commercial hat on and thought what am I getting getting for my extra 20K or 30K? Mybe Im paying for a few doors to open, no harm in that and a decent careers service. However, many of my friends graduated from OAT in 2001\2002 and at that time if the airlines didnt have jobs for them, not even OAT can do anything about that.
by Andy Fez
Its great to read positive comments about OAT, Im new to the forum and the first threads I read when I joined were all negative things about OAT. Which sucked as I have always wanted to go to OAT and when i visited I loved the place. Really felt right for me.
Im now at the stage of visiting and researching every other option before i commit to any decision of which FTO
Its great to read positive comments about OAT, Im new to the forum and the first threads I read when I joined were all negative things about OAT. Which sucked as I have always wanted to go to OAT and when i visited I loved the place. Really felt right for me.
Im now at the stage of visiting and researching every other option before i commit to any decision of which FTO
Scroggs
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One thing which slighlty irritates me about OAT is that they feel the need to call their course the "Airline Preparation Programme" as opposed to its real name, an "fATPL course" as everywhere else calls it. As far as I can make out the only thing different is that they give you their "First Officer Fundamentals" section, where real airline pilots come in and give you talks about the job. How useful is this really, I mean learning to fly the plane is what ur there for. So they might tell you a bit the job from non flying perspective, what the airlines want to see, good attitude, smart appearance. This kind of stuff is obvious to anyone who has done anykind of other professional work already! If the purpose of the first officer fundamentals is to tell u a bit about what the job is like then it really has no point, as anyone who has already handed over their 60k to OAT already isnt going to change their mind halfway through if they hear something about the job they don´t like, and they will ideally be finding out what it is like to be a FO in due course anyway.
Think about it, rich daddy/ perspective trainee is keen on their offspring/ themselves getting an airline job. What will they be more drawn to, a course called the "Airline Preparation Programme," or the same course somewhere else given a less fancy name.
Ps, I dont really know what the First officer fundamentals course is like, am just making reasonable assumptions above. Would be interesting to hear from anyone with an opinion on said element of the course, what does it tell you that you dont/ should know already, and is it any use?
Think about it, rich daddy/ perspective trainee is keen on their offspring/ themselves getting an airline job. What will they be more drawn to, a course called the "Airline Preparation Programme," or the same course somewhere else given a less fancy name.
Ps, I dont really know what the First officer fundamentals course is like, am just making reasonable assumptions above. Would be interesting to hear from anyone with an opinion on said element of the course, what does it tell you that you dont/ should know already, and is it any use?
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I think you raise a fair point in that the difference between APP first officer (as its now called) and other fATPL courses can sometimes seem a bit vague. I would point out that the MCC and JOT is also included in the course, its supposed to be a true zero to hero type course where other than a type rating possibly it should be the only course you need do to get fully "airline job ready".
I actually found the FOF course very interesting and while you're right that some of it was just us being talked to by a variety of highly experienced people from all fields of aviation there were other aspects to it, also the stories we were told were fascinating! We went through a good deal of CRM material which is of course very relevant for your future career and to get a good introduction to it at that stage gives you a real heads up for when you do it in greater detail later on. We also went through things such as decision making, risk assesment etc, clearly all very relevant in every-day airline life. No doubt I'm forgetting a lot of what we did as I'm not looking it up, just trying to remember what I did a year ago. At the end of the course we had to split into groups and give a formal presentation on a particular accident case study which was practice I know I needed as public speaking is far from being a strong point of mine. Also if I remember rightly we had a full day on CV preperating and interview technique at the end which was another first look for me so it was nice to start getting my head into gear.
Throughout the whole course it definitly seemed like we were getting groomed into an airline way of thinking not just learning to fly a plane, as I'm sure anyone currently flying for an airline will tell you flying the plane is the easy part.
I actually found the FOF course very interesting and while you're right that some of it was just us being talked to by a variety of highly experienced people from all fields of aviation there were other aspects to it, also the stories we were told were fascinating! We went through a good deal of CRM material which is of course very relevant for your future career and to get a good introduction to it at that stage gives you a real heads up for when you do it in greater detail later on. We also went through things such as decision making, risk assesment etc, clearly all very relevant in every-day airline life. No doubt I'm forgetting a lot of what we did as I'm not looking it up, just trying to remember what I did a year ago. At the end of the course we had to split into groups and give a formal presentation on a particular accident case study which was practice I know I needed as public speaking is far from being a strong point of mine. Also if I remember rightly we had a full day on CV preperating and interview technique at the end which was another first look for me so it was nice to start getting my head into gear.
Throughout the whole course it definitly seemed like we were getting groomed into an airline way of thinking not just learning to fly a plane, as I'm sure anyone currently flying for an airline will tell you flying the plane is the easy part.
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Oxford Aviation Open Day, A Report
Hi all, attended the OAT open day a few weeks ago, so thought I´d put my thoughts about it here, for the information of anyone thinking about going along.
The day began, and after checking in at reception was sent over to the waiting room where a number of the other attendees were sitting. They were a mixture, a couple of kids there with their fathers, as well as some others. Im 24, and was probably the oldest there. They were all dressed very smartly, and were obviously looking to impress whoever they were about to meet. Everyone seemed very nervous and not really saying much, they were perhaps a bit overawed by the whole experience and imposing reputation of OAT.
A few minutes later we were all shepherded to a very nice, carpeted, airconditioned seminar room complete with projector and dimmable lights. My first thoughts were of what such conference facilities, which would not look out of place in a hotel, were doing here. Surely this is an FTO, not a corporate conference centre?
Anyway, a bloke, whose name I forget but I think was general manager, or something like that, proceeded to give a talk about the APP programme.
His opening line was to state emphatically that the emphasis of his speech was not to be on the actual training facility at Oxford, but on the state of the airline jobs market, which "was what we were all really here to hear about right?" He then proceeded to quote a number of facts about how the aviation jobs market was verymuch on the up with "hundreds of jobs for new pilots coming available in the next couple of years", how BA deffinitely didnt take modular students, and how, with its connections, OAT could get us all into those jobs. He then flashed up a picture on his power point screen showing the logos of around 50 airlines, where OAT students had got jobs.
We were also told to "beware of modular courses, as the hours building between PPL and CPL stages was un-supervised. At OAT all flying hours are supervised, and therfore better." I though about this for a while, comparing the number of hours of dual and solo instruction given at OAT with those that a modular trainee would recieve through the PPL, CPL and IR training elements of the course. The numbers were the same, give or take 2 or 3 hours. I mused on how a students flying technique and cockpit management whilst flying solo could be supervised from on the ground? The student could perhaps have radio contact with their instructor, but that would be all.
Throughout the talk, my fellow attendees would nod their heads in approval, daddies would look at their kids, with looks on their faces which said "I am happy for you to go here, I will pay."
Various questions were asked, whereby the bloke giving the speech would tell the answer the asker wanted to hear. Que more nodding of heads in agreement.
The next stage was a "hob nobbing" session over a finger buffet. OAT had pushed the boat out with this one, the food was delicious, and had obviously cost a fair bit to put on. We had the chance to chat informally with a number of instructors, however every topic of conversation would invariably revert back to discussing the positive merits of OAT, so and so finished 2 months ago and is now FO with BA, etc.
We were then taken through to a room full of computers, where we were allowed to try out some of the co-ordination tests they use for trainee selection. Not too much however, "in case we got too much practice and gained an unfair advantage in their highly competitive selection process." I and others seemed to be quite sucessfull at the relatively simple tasks involved, and it was certain that the confidence of some peoples ability to pass the test was improved by this taster session.
Next we went through to have a look at some of the planes. On the way however we passed through the cafeteria, where around 30 trainees were hanging around on a break from their ground school or flying. Each one was dressed identically in their OAT uniform, which prominently featured the OAT logo both shirt and jumper. Some of the trainees were wearing epaulets, some with more than others. I learnt that the difference in epaulets was due to their progrees through the course, with more epaulets awarded as one progresses through different stages of the course. I wondered what the need was for such a reward system, why it was felt necessary that a hierachy marked by visual denotation was in place? Was a student who had passed his CPL test seen as more senior, and therefore more demanding of respect than someone who had merely started the course a few months earlier? Indeed the uniforms gave the place the feel of a regimented military academy. Whilst it takes discipline to be/ become an airline pilot, as with any professional job, the training/ doing the job doesnt require the "millitary regimentation" that OAT try to portray.
The uniforms resembled considerably the one I wore at school ten years ago. It was dificult to tell the age of the students I saw, but they all looked nearer to school age than me, perhaps it was the uniforms.
We were then taken to see the planes. I had a sit down in one of their senecas. It was no different whatsoever to any other Id seen, apart from the prominant OAT logo on the tail.
We then went with the general manager to look at the simulators, where it was emphasised that the sims were "state of the art" and "the same ones used by the airlines." Que more nodding of heads in approval. One of the sims had some students in it. I noticed the students reaction to the general manager, the sound of hoovers sprung to mind, such was the "sucking up." It was then that it occured to me that this was due to their desire to be recommended to an airline and that they felt that if they stayed on the goodside of the staff then they would be recommended. Indeed the general manager was heard to say at one point "if there is a guy we like, then we will put him forward when an airline calls." It struck me how awful it would be to spend a year competing for the affetions of the powers that be at OAT with all the other students, walking a tightrope, where one argument, late arrival or word out of place might mean you loosing favour and "recommendation" prospects. Such sucking up appeared to have started with some of the attendees already, before they had even started the course!
Finally we were taken into a classroom, where were were "de-briefed" and given the opportunity to ask questions. This stage was again a cleverly done sales pitch, with every question asker receiving the answer they wanted to hear.
The final words of the day were: "here are the application forms, you can fill them in and hand them over now if you want. We advise you to get them in as soon as possible, as demand is high, and places are limited." At least half of the attendees did so, and signed up there and then.
My overall impression of the day was that it was a very very cleverly staged marketing exercise, designed to create an "air of mystique" about the place, and make people feel that they are lucky and privelidged to be given the opportuinity to hand over their 60grand to OAT. Looking at the faces of the people attending, it was almost as if they were hypnotised by the whole affair, such was the regularity of the nodding of heads in agreement. The gen manager could have told them that the moon was made of cheese and they would have agreed with him!
When one strips away the unnecessary frills, OAT appears to me to be no different to any other training organisation.
There is no need for fancy, air conditioned buildings. It is what goes on in the plane that counts. You might as well have an FTO that operates out of a portakabin if the planes are the same.
With such obviously expensive advertising campaigns and unnecessary conference facilities, one has to wonder how much the 60k price tag goes towards supporting these, rather than to optimise the standards of the aircraft/teaching/ instruction
The sims were the same as ive seen elsewhere.
The uniforms, with their hierachical epaulets are unnecessary, save to add to the mystique of the brand. They add an oppresive air of millitary regimentation to the place which is unnecesary. One does not need a uniform to be disciplined in their approach to training.
The planes were the same as Ive seen elsewhere.
I cannot comment on the instructors, but as all instructors are subject to the same JAA/CAA training, exams and continued career development, there is no reason why the ones at OAT should be any better than elsewhere.
The only difference, which I can accept, is that OAT might get you into a job, if you stay on the right side of the people there and give them the hoover treatment.
To conclude, I decided not to go there.
I could not see any justification for the hefty price tag over other FTOS which offer exactly the same service.
I felt that I would not be comfortable in such a regimented environment, wearing an unnecessary uniform that took me back to my school days, with everyone competing for the approval of those who might recommend them to an airline.
Regarding the enhanced job prospects through OAT, I decided that If I have got what it takes and I end up as a first class pilot through training elsewhere I will be able to get a job off my own back, and feel all the better for it.
To all those who have been impressed by OAT and are thinking of signing their 60k away, think very carefully about whether or not it is worth it, and whether the wool has been pulled over your eyes by OATs very clever open day programme.
Im a cynical bugger, so Ive see through it quite easily. Those of you who are a bit younger with less life experience may not be so lucky. Also, many parents with a bit of cash will do anything to see their kids suceed, and this desire may cloud their judgement somewhat. If you are young, ie late teens/early 20s, you have LOADS of time to get an airline job. If you think OAT might give u 6mth/ a year headstart in getting an airline job, put it into perspective. When you are that young, 6mth / a year will make sod all difference to your life, is it really worth 30k?
The day began, and after checking in at reception was sent over to the waiting room where a number of the other attendees were sitting. They were a mixture, a couple of kids there with their fathers, as well as some others. Im 24, and was probably the oldest there. They were all dressed very smartly, and were obviously looking to impress whoever they were about to meet. Everyone seemed very nervous and not really saying much, they were perhaps a bit overawed by the whole experience and imposing reputation of OAT.
A few minutes later we were all shepherded to a very nice, carpeted, airconditioned seminar room complete with projector and dimmable lights. My first thoughts were of what such conference facilities, which would not look out of place in a hotel, were doing here. Surely this is an FTO, not a corporate conference centre?
Anyway, a bloke, whose name I forget but I think was general manager, or something like that, proceeded to give a talk about the APP programme.
His opening line was to state emphatically that the emphasis of his speech was not to be on the actual training facility at Oxford, but on the state of the airline jobs market, which "was what we were all really here to hear about right?" He then proceeded to quote a number of facts about how the aviation jobs market was verymuch on the up with "hundreds of jobs for new pilots coming available in the next couple of years", how BA deffinitely didnt take modular students, and how, with its connections, OAT could get us all into those jobs. He then flashed up a picture on his power point screen showing the logos of around 50 airlines, where OAT students had got jobs.
We were also told to "beware of modular courses, as the hours building between PPL and CPL stages was un-supervised. At OAT all flying hours are supervised, and therfore better." I though about this for a while, comparing the number of hours of dual and solo instruction given at OAT with those that a modular trainee would recieve through the PPL, CPL and IR training elements of the course. The numbers were the same, give or take 2 or 3 hours. I mused on how a students flying technique and cockpit management whilst flying solo could be supervised from on the ground? The student could perhaps have radio contact with their instructor, but that would be all.
Throughout the talk, my fellow attendees would nod their heads in approval, daddies would look at their kids, with looks on their faces which said "I am happy for you to go here, I will pay."
Various questions were asked, whereby the bloke giving the speech would tell the answer the asker wanted to hear. Que more nodding of heads in agreement.
The next stage was a "hob nobbing" session over a finger buffet. OAT had pushed the boat out with this one, the food was delicious, and had obviously cost a fair bit to put on. We had the chance to chat informally with a number of instructors, however every topic of conversation would invariably revert back to discussing the positive merits of OAT, so and so finished 2 months ago and is now FO with BA, etc.
We were then taken through to a room full of computers, where we were allowed to try out some of the co-ordination tests they use for trainee selection. Not too much however, "in case we got too much practice and gained an unfair advantage in their highly competitive selection process." I and others seemed to be quite sucessfull at the relatively simple tasks involved, and it was certain that the confidence of some peoples ability to pass the test was improved by this taster session.
Next we went through to have a look at some of the planes. On the way however we passed through the cafeteria, where around 30 trainees were hanging around on a break from their ground school or flying. Each one was dressed identically in their OAT uniform, which prominently featured the OAT logo both shirt and jumper. Some of the trainees were wearing epaulets, some with more than others. I learnt that the difference in epaulets was due to their progrees through the course, with more epaulets awarded as one progresses through different stages of the course. I wondered what the need was for such a reward system, why it was felt necessary that a hierachy marked by visual denotation was in place? Was a student who had passed his CPL test seen as more senior, and therefore more demanding of respect than someone who had merely started the course a few months earlier? Indeed the uniforms gave the place the feel of a regimented military academy. Whilst it takes discipline to be/ become an airline pilot, as with any professional job, the training/ doing the job doesnt require the "millitary regimentation" that OAT try to portray.
The uniforms resembled considerably the one I wore at school ten years ago. It was dificult to tell the age of the students I saw, but they all looked nearer to school age than me, perhaps it was the uniforms.
We were then taken to see the planes. I had a sit down in one of their senecas. It was no different whatsoever to any other Id seen, apart from the prominant OAT logo on the tail.
We then went with the general manager to look at the simulators, where it was emphasised that the sims were "state of the art" and "the same ones used by the airlines." Que more nodding of heads in approval. One of the sims had some students in it. I noticed the students reaction to the general manager, the sound of hoovers sprung to mind, such was the "sucking up." It was then that it occured to me that this was due to their desire to be recommended to an airline and that they felt that if they stayed on the goodside of the staff then they would be recommended. Indeed the general manager was heard to say at one point "if there is a guy we like, then we will put him forward when an airline calls." It struck me how awful it would be to spend a year competing for the affetions of the powers that be at OAT with all the other students, walking a tightrope, where one argument, late arrival or word out of place might mean you loosing favour and "recommendation" prospects. Such sucking up appeared to have started with some of the attendees already, before they had even started the course!
Finally we were taken into a classroom, where were were "de-briefed" and given the opportunity to ask questions. This stage was again a cleverly done sales pitch, with every question asker receiving the answer they wanted to hear.
The final words of the day were: "here are the application forms, you can fill them in and hand them over now if you want. We advise you to get them in as soon as possible, as demand is high, and places are limited." At least half of the attendees did so, and signed up there and then.
My overall impression of the day was that it was a very very cleverly staged marketing exercise, designed to create an "air of mystique" about the place, and make people feel that they are lucky and privelidged to be given the opportuinity to hand over their 60grand to OAT. Looking at the faces of the people attending, it was almost as if they were hypnotised by the whole affair, such was the regularity of the nodding of heads in agreement. The gen manager could have told them that the moon was made of cheese and they would have agreed with him!
When one strips away the unnecessary frills, OAT appears to me to be no different to any other training organisation.
There is no need for fancy, air conditioned buildings. It is what goes on in the plane that counts. You might as well have an FTO that operates out of a portakabin if the planes are the same.
With such obviously expensive advertising campaigns and unnecessary conference facilities, one has to wonder how much the 60k price tag goes towards supporting these, rather than to optimise the standards of the aircraft/teaching/ instruction
The sims were the same as ive seen elsewhere.
The uniforms, with their hierachical epaulets are unnecessary, save to add to the mystique of the brand. They add an oppresive air of millitary regimentation to the place which is unnecesary. One does not need a uniform to be disciplined in their approach to training.
The planes were the same as Ive seen elsewhere.
I cannot comment on the instructors, but as all instructors are subject to the same JAA/CAA training, exams and continued career development, there is no reason why the ones at OAT should be any better than elsewhere.
The only difference, which I can accept, is that OAT might get you into a job, if you stay on the right side of the people there and give them the hoover treatment.
To conclude, I decided not to go there.
I could not see any justification for the hefty price tag over other FTOS which offer exactly the same service.
I felt that I would not be comfortable in such a regimented environment, wearing an unnecessary uniform that took me back to my school days, with everyone competing for the approval of those who might recommend them to an airline.
Regarding the enhanced job prospects through OAT, I decided that If I have got what it takes and I end up as a first class pilot through training elsewhere I will be able to get a job off my own back, and feel all the better for it.
To all those who have been impressed by OAT and are thinking of signing their 60k away, think very carefully about whether or not it is worth it, and whether the wool has been pulled over your eyes by OATs very clever open day programme.
Im a cynical bugger, so Ive see through it quite easily. Those of you who are a bit younger with less life experience may not be so lucky. Also, many parents with a bit of cash will do anything to see their kids suceed, and this desire may cloud their judgement somewhat. If you are young, ie late teens/early 20s, you have LOADS of time to get an airline job. If you think OAT might give u 6mth/ a year headstart in getting an airline job, put it into perspective. When you are that young, 6mth / a year will make sod all difference to your life, is it really worth 30k?
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Dinifitley a more cynical response to OAT as you say yourself. Having been through the course myself I'm well aware of how when they want to OAT really turn up the corporate image and put on a show. Its all part of their image as a truly professional outfit and can we really blame them for trying to make themselves look as good as possible for prospective trainees? Would people not be more concerned if they gave the impression of not really caring about treating people well who might be sending sixty odd thousand pounds their way?!
Your comments about the military-like regimented atmosphere in the school with regard to the uniforms seem a little odd, I certainly never got that feeling during my stay there and never heard other people comment to the contrary. Getting different number's of bars on your uniform I personally found to be quite a good thing, you really have to dig deep to get through ground school and each other stage in the course so why shouldn't you get a little token at the end of it as a recognition of the acheivement. There's no real rank or advantage to whether you've got one silver or two gold stripes, you dont get special treatment and you dont look down or up to people with more of less than you.
The coment about the instructors passing the same exams so in theory being the same as any other FTO is understandable although in my experience the instructors (especially in England) that OAT use are almost all highly experienced pilots rather than hour building guys who may well be competing with you for jobs when you finish! For example my instructor for my instrument rating was ex-RAF ex-BA 747 captain with god knows how many years in each, he'd been flying for a lot longer than you or I'd been alive!
I would agree with you that sometimes, especially at times such as seminars, OAT can put on an image with just seems too glossy and sugar coated which may lead to cynicism. I for one didn't fall for it just like that, I did my research and visited a number of schools both here and abroad, finally deciding that at least the majority of things I had been told by Oxford added up.
Your comments about the military-like regimented atmosphere in the school with regard to the uniforms seem a little odd, I certainly never got that feeling during my stay there and never heard other people comment to the contrary. Getting different number's of bars on your uniform I personally found to be quite a good thing, you really have to dig deep to get through ground school and each other stage in the course so why shouldn't you get a little token at the end of it as a recognition of the acheivement. There's no real rank or advantage to whether you've got one silver or two gold stripes, you dont get special treatment and you dont look down or up to people with more of less than you.
The coment about the instructors passing the same exams so in theory being the same as any other FTO is understandable although in my experience the instructors (especially in England) that OAT use are almost all highly experienced pilots rather than hour building guys who may well be competing with you for jobs when you finish! For example my instructor for my instrument rating was ex-RAF ex-BA 747 captain with god knows how many years in each, he'd been flying for a lot longer than you or I'd been alive!
I would agree with you that sometimes, especially at times such as seminars, OAT can put on an image with just seems too glossy and sugar coated which may lead to cynicism. I for one didn't fall for it just like that, I did my research and visited a number of schools both here and abroad, finally deciding that at least the majority of things I had been told by Oxford added up.