PLEASE READ THIS AND HELP SAVE GA IN THE UK - Save the IMCR
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Last time or we are going to fall out.
The title of this thread is to help you support the IMCR. Not lets all bash AOPA.
You have expressed that you are unhappy with what AOPA have done and wish to run your own campaign. I have wished you the best of luck with it. It is your horse to flog.
I am satisfied that AOPA have done everything within there power to assist this cause. Bashing them is not going to change anything.
It just shows a lack of maturity on your part at a time when you are hoping to convince others to join your cause and pay money to support it. Why do you think Martin does not enter into these debates nor does he enter into publicly bashing the competition.
I look forward to meeting you representing your alliance at the committee table.
The title of this thread is to help you support the IMCR. Not lets all bash AOPA.
You have expressed that you are unhappy with what AOPA have done and wish to run your own campaign. I have wished you the best of luck with it. It is your horse to flog.
I am satisfied that AOPA have done everything within there power to assist this cause. Bashing them is not going to change anything.
It just shows a lack of maturity on your part at a time when you are hoping to convince others to join your cause and pay money to support it. Why do you think Martin does not enter into these debates nor does he enter into publicly bashing the competition.
I look forward to meeting you representing your alliance at the committee table.
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The reason why the discussion moved on to AOPA is because there is a perception that AOPA are seeking to protect the future of the IMCR. Were that the case we might well conclude the work was in safe hands and that AOPA would do their best to achieve what they set out to do.
I think I am correct in saying that the message is clear - AOPA are not seeking to save the IMCr - so far as AOPA is concerned it is already dead and their attention is solely focused on trying to persuade EASA to adopt an IR that is more accessable by private pilots.
The suggestion is that it is all our faults that so far as AOPA is concerned the battle has already been lost. I am sure we would disagree on whether or not AOPA ever went to battle over this in the first place, but we do agree that would not be productive.
My purpose has not been therefore to bash AOPA as you put it for bashing sake but becasue I think it is important everyone understands that they should not look towards AOPA to argue their corner for the IMCr - because AOPA have already given up on that - unless I am very much mistaken?
I think I am correct in saying that the message is clear - AOPA are not seeking to save the IMCr - so far as AOPA is concerned it is already dead and their attention is solely focused on trying to persuade EASA to adopt an IR that is more accessable by private pilots.
The suggestion is that it is all our faults that so far as AOPA is concerned the battle has already been lost. I am sure we would disagree on whether or not AOPA ever went to battle over this in the first place, but we do agree that would not be productive.
My purpose has not been therefore to bash AOPA as you put it for bashing sake but becasue I think it is important everyone understands that they should not look towards AOPA to argue their corner for the IMCr - because AOPA have already given up on that - unless I am very much mistaken?
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
My purpose has not been therefore to bash AOPA as you put it for bashing sake...
It's just something you do - anyone who has read these pages for more than 10 minutes knows it.
IO540 is GPS man
You are bash-AOPA man
Fact.
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Rustle
True - because I think they have done a poor job on many issues - as do many. At least I have provided the evidence - and your evidence is .. .. .. ah yes, non existent.
well the subtleties of the English language are never lost .. ..
I would love AOPA to do a good job. At least I have put forward some suggestions and at least Bose has been kind enough to acknowledge they are weak in a number of areas. I suppose you subscribe to the train of thought that it is better to do nothing other than cancel your subs. Look at their accounts and ask yourself why their subscriptions have barely increased from last year - hardly the first sign of a vibrant organisation at a time when your first thought would be, given all the unpopular change taking place, pilots would be flocking to join.
Bose
Sorry, I really was trying not to comment on AOPA again, but some people just cant leave it alone. At least you have the temerity to accept they could do better - thank you for that. I promise not to mention it again, unless someone else does!
.. .. .. and in so far as GPS goes while we are on the subject I expect IO will be along to defend himself. However I suspect he believe GPS is a major contributor to safety and I think that is also a very worth while message to broadcast.
You are bash-AOPA man
for bashing sake
I would love AOPA to do a good job. At least I have put forward some suggestions and at least Bose has been kind enough to acknowledge they are weak in a number of areas. I suppose you subscribe to the train of thought that it is better to do nothing other than cancel your subs. Look at their accounts and ask yourself why their subscriptions have barely increased from last year - hardly the first sign of a vibrant organisation at a time when your first thought would be, given all the unpopular change taking place, pilots would be flocking to join.
Bose
Sorry, I really was trying not to comment on AOPA again, but some people just cant leave it alone. At least you have the temerity to accept they could do better - thank you for that. I promise not to mention it again, unless someone else does!
.. .. .. and in so far as GPS goes while we are on the subject I expect IO will be along to defend himself. However I suspect he believe GPS is a major contributor to safety and I think that is also a very worth while message to broadcast.
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My purpose has not been therefore to bash AOPA as you put it for bashing sake but becasue I think it is important everyone understands that they should not look towards AOPA to argue their corner for the IMCr - because AOPA have already given up on that - unless I am very much mistaken?
However they have followed due process and made the correct representations. Now we wait until the NPA comes out in March and the next round starts. AOPA understand and follow the process you do not.
The only thing you can do that AOPA won't is kidnap the EASA bods and hold them hostage until they give into your demands.
But like I said if you think you can have a greater impact by going off as a loose canon then you are welcome.
Just don't make an ass out of yourself by making assumptions about AOPA.
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So really if our future is really so pre-ordained by the powers that be in Europe, then there is not a thing we, AOPA, or anyone else can do about it.....So we may as well take IO's advice and just "wait and see" just in case the soothsayers are wrong.
If the **** hits the fan, at least I know EASA can't touch my FAA ratings, and if I can use them in Europe, all well and good, if not I'll just go to America every two months and spend my money there.....
If the **** hits the fan, at least I know EASA can't touch my FAA ratings, and if I can use them in Europe, all well and good, if not I'll just go to America every two months and spend my money there.....
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Good on you Al!! Sadly not that I expect the eurocrats to loose any sleep over loss of income from you.
Believe me I am as frustrated as you all at the blind signing away of our rights by politicians. Another example of how our rights are being given away from under our noses by the blind desire to create the United States of Europe.
Can the last one out please turn out the lights (to save the planet).
Believe me I am as frustrated as you all at the blind signing away of our rights by politicians. Another example of how our rights are being given away from under our noses by the blind desire to create the United States of Europe.
Can the last one out please turn out the lights (to save the planet).
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Hi
I notice there is a fairly brief article on this subject in the AOPA page of this month's Pilot magazine.
At least this will get read by a number of folk 19000 + a month on their circulation figures.
Now if enough people write and respond to that article, it will prompt more press coverage which should wake up more of the GA community to the threat.
Surely whether you are a small organisation trying to generate awareness and pressure, or AOPA then having some thousands of pilots banging the drum is no bad thing.
So for anybody interested, can I suggest letters to the Editor of Pilot mag and let's share our views.
BB
I notice there is a fairly brief article on this subject in the AOPA page of this month's Pilot magazine.
At least this will get read by a number of folk 19000 + a month on their circulation figures.
Now if enough people write and respond to that article, it will prompt more press coverage which should wake up more of the GA community to the threat.
Surely whether you are a small organisation trying to generate awareness and pressure, or AOPA then having some thousands of pilots banging the drum is no bad thing.
So for anybody interested, can I suggest letters to the Editor of Pilot mag and let's share our views.
BB
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and if I can use them in Europe, all well and good, if not I'll just go to America every two months and spend my money there.....
That point, Englishal, will not be lost on a bunch of much bigger people than you or I.
If N-reg are kicked out of Europe, all the big fish (there are loads of privately owned turboprops and jets) who are mobile will not be wasting their "max 90-days in Europe" (or whatever) by having their big iron sitting in some maintenance hangar in Europe with the inspection covers opened up, are they?
At the appropriate time, it is most important to draw the attention of anybody and everybody with a commercial interest in the matter to this proposal.
Not just manufacturers but all maintenance organisations.
That point, Englishal, will not be lost on a bunch of much bigger people than you or I.
If N-reg are kicked out of Europe, all the big fish (there are loads of privately owned turboprops and jets) who are mobile will not be wasting their "max 90-days in Europe" (or whatever) by having their big iron sitting in some maintenance hangar in Europe with the inspection covers opened up, are they?
At the appropriate time, it is most important to draw the attention of anybody and everybody with a commercial interest in the matter to this proposal.
Not just manufacturers but all maintenance organisations.
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Bose
Thank you, I am very pleased to be corrected.
However, with very little searching you did say among other comments.
Perhaps just me, but I had certainly formed the impression that AOPA have given up on the IMCr?
Let me please ask this:
1. Would you set out in clear terms exactly what it is AOPA are doing / intend to do towards preserving the IMCr,
2. What is the timetable? The suggestion seems to be not a lot will happen until March 2008. EASA are on record as saying they will take over FCL by the second quarter of 2008 at the latest.
3. If AOPA is not going to do a great deal more until March 2008 do they understand how important it is to engage people well before.? If they do when and how are they going to engage their membership and the wider audience and how? I see nothing on their web site. I have just spoken to a large local FBO. As you can imagine the income they derive from the IMCr is an important part of their revenue. They tell me they have not been asked to engage with AOPA on this issue. Is the intention to engage the flying schools and when?
4. Can you set out AOPAs case for why it is so important to preserve the IMCr?
There are some on here who seem to take pleasure in pointing out we were warned. Well we were. They also point out you did nothing. Well that is also true - but not this time. If you are asking us to put our faith and trust in AOPA I for one would like to know why I should so that some smart alec cant take pleasure in reminding us in a years time - “you were warned” if the perception is AOPA did not do enough.
You may have guessed I fervently believe this could prove to be the greatest derogation of light aviation safety that I have seen.
I don’t think it is good enough to accept on that basis and as you put it - “it is a done deal”!
Thank you, I am very pleased to be corrected.
However, with very little searching you did say among other comments.
Well my personal view is that it is probably already a done deal. A year ago when I tried to warn you would have been better to mobilize resistance.
Let me please ask this:
1. Would you set out in clear terms exactly what it is AOPA are doing / intend to do towards preserving the IMCr,
2. What is the timetable? The suggestion seems to be not a lot will happen until March 2008. EASA are on record as saying they will take over FCL by the second quarter of 2008 at the latest.
3. If AOPA is not going to do a great deal more until March 2008 do they understand how important it is to engage people well before.? If they do when and how are they going to engage their membership and the wider audience and how? I see nothing on their web site. I have just spoken to a large local FBO. As you can imagine the income they derive from the IMCr is an important part of their revenue. They tell me they have not been asked to engage with AOPA on this issue. Is the intention to engage the flying schools and when?
4. Can you set out AOPAs case for why it is so important to preserve the IMCr?
There are some on here who seem to take pleasure in pointing out we were warned. Well we were. They also point out you did nothing. Well that is also true - but not this time. If you are asking us to put our faith and trust in AOPA I for one would like to know why I should so that some smart alec cant take pleasure in reminding us in a years time - “you were warned” if the perception is AOPA did not do enough.
You may have guessed I fervently believe this could prove to be the greatest derogation of light aviation safety that I have seen.
I don’t think it is good enough to accept on that basis and as you put it - “it is a done deal”!
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My opinion that it is a done deal is my own and not necessarily that of AOPA.
AOPA put forward papers to the EASA FCL Core Group regarding retaining the IMC Rating and introducing it into Europe, but did not get a very good reception. However, the current 'state of play' is that EASA is supposed to be putting out an RIA followed by the formation of a small specialised working group to look into the possible future of the IMC Rating in Europe. That is where we are at the moment as far as EASA is concerned.
We have one further FCL Core Group meeting this year at Cologne with EASA in December, so I might learn more then.
I know that Mike Dobson has been working on a delay in implementation to give countries such as UK time to handle their national licences: UK issued PPLs, CPLs etc of which there are many, not to mention our BCPL, an arrangement where an experienced FI holding a PPL could be issued with a Basic CPL and receive remuneration for giving flight instruction. (Another of Ron's Campbell's clever arrangements with the CAA!) Plus of course the IMC Rating. This has not produced fruit so far but is still being actively pursued.
I am not at liberty to post the actual documents to a faceless bulletin board however I can assure you that the representations have been extensive including a safety case for retaining the IMCR.
All of the corporate MEMBERS have been consulted via the corporate committee and direct communications.
AOPA put forward papers to the EASA FCL Core Group regarding retaining the IMC Rating and introducing it into Europe, but did not get a very good reception. However, the current 'state of play' is that EASA is supposed to be putting out an RIA followed by the formation of a small specialised working group to look into the possible future of the IMC Rating in Europe. That is where we are at the moment as far as EASA is concerned.
We have one further FCL Core Group meeting this year at Cologne with EASA in December, so I might learn more then.
I know that Mike Dobson has been working on a delay in implementation to give countries such as UK time to handle their national licences: UK issued PPLs, CPLs etc of which there are many, not to mention our BCPL, an arrangement where an experienced FI holding a PPL could be issued with a Basic CPL and receive remuneration for giving flight instruction. (Another of Ron's Campbell's clever arrangements with the CAA!) Plus of course the IMC Rating. This has not produced fruit so far but is still being actively pursued.
I am not at liberty to post the actual documents to a faceless bulletin board however I can assure you that the representations have been extensive including a safety case for retaining the IMCR.
All of the corporate MEMBERS have been consulted via the corporate committee and direct communications.
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Just a thought....
If national ratings go, then surely the NPPL will be binned as well, being a "national thing". If so then many many pilots will suddenly have wasted their money and be grounded, some of whom cannot "convert" to EASA.
If the NPPL is NOT binned, then surely the CAA could in theory issue national ratings onto an NPPL, such as an "imc" rating could it not?
If the NPPL and IMC are binned, then we're going to see many flight schools put out of business over night, and many instructors unemployed over night. Flight training in the UK will drop dramatically and all the FAA US places will suddenly become very popular (there are ways into commercial aviation via the FAA which are far more attractive).
Looking at the amount of "FAA" topics on Pprune and Flyer at the moment, it appears that this handover to EASA may just do exactly what getting rid of duty free did to Europe.....make not one slightest bit of difference to "oversight" and in fact "worsen" the problem.
The "problem" is the Europe wants oversight. By getting rid of stuff like the NPPL and IMC, Europe are going to force people onto other authorities, like the FAA, and if Europe does recognise ICAO licences then it *may* mean that they effectively shoot themselves in the foot (as usual).
If the IMC is at risk, then so is the NPPL. If they are at risk, so is every permint operated aeroplane. If they are at risk, so is every microlight and glider.........
Still, my crystal ball is not working at the moment........
If national ratings go, then surely the NPPL will be binned as well, being a "national thing". If so then many many pilots will suddenly have wasted their money and be grounded, some of whom cannot "convert" to EASA.
If the NPPL is NOT binned, then surely the CAA could in theory issue national ratings onto an NPPL, such as an "imc" rating could it not?
If the NPPL and IMC are binned, then we're going to see many flight schools put out of business over night, and many instructors unemployed over night. Flight training in the UK will drop dramatically and all the FAA US places will suddenly become very popular (there are ways into commercial aviation via the FAA which are far more attractive).
Looking at the amount of "FAA" topics on Pprune and Flyer at the moment, it appears that this handover to EASA may just do exactly what getting rid of duty free did to Europe.....make not one slightest bit of difference to "oversight" and in fact "worsen" the problem.
The "problem" is the Europe wants oversight. By getting rid of stuff like the NPPL and IMC, Europe are going to force people onto other authorities, like the FAA, and if Europe does recognise ICAO licences then it *may* mean that they effectively shoot themselves in the foot (as usual).
If the IMC is at risk, then so is the NPPL. If they are at risk, so is every permint operated aeroplane. If they are at risk, so is every microlight and glider.........
Still, my crystal ball is not working at the moment........
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Why don't we leave the whole pro/anti AOPA out of this thread?
Fuji's idea is for those that either
a) Don't like how AOPA are representing them,
b) Don't believe AOPA represent them, or
c) Believe that brining pressure to bare in as many different ways as possible will help.
Let's not get distracted into arguing about AOPA, and get on with Fuji's efforts.
Fuji....your compaing will get lost, if you let it get distracted over AOPA....don't let that happen.
dp
Fuji's idea is for those that either
a) Don't like how AOPA are representing them,
b) Don't believe AOPA represent them, or
c) Believe that brining pressure to bare in as many different ways as possible will help.
Let's not get distracted into arguing about AOPA, and get on with Fuji's efforts.
Fuji....your compaing will get lost, if you let it get distracted over AOPA....don't let that happen.
dp
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Originally Posted by englishal
If national ratings go, then surely the NPPL will be binned as well, being a "national thing". If so then many many pilots will suddenly have wasted their money and be grounded, some of whom cannot "convert" to EASA.
Search for LAPL and all will be revealed.
"Answers, not egos".
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Bose
Please can I ask this:
I think people would be very interested in these documents. I cant imagine why they should be such a secret (whilst accepting that a faceless bulletin might not be the best place).
Where are these documents and how can then be read? How can AOPA expect comment if no one is aware of the safety case that they have put forward.
I refer you to question 3. I think AOPAs stance on this would be of great interest. I still dont understand how they are engaging pilots, and politicians and MEPS (if appropriate). Can you tell us?
Rustle
You agree with everything AOPA does as well as reminding us at every opportunity we have been warned so there is nothing new there but thanks for taking part.
Thank God I am not married to you though - I can imagine every time something went wrong your saying.
I TOLD YOU SO
(why do I have to add the icon
)
I am not at liberty to post the actual documents to a faceless bulletin board however I can assure you that the representations have been extensive including a safety case for retaining the IMCR.
I think people would be very interested in these documents. I cant imagine why they should be such a secret (whilst accepting that a faceless bulletin might not be the best place).
Where are these documents and how can then be read? How can AOPA expect comment if no one is aware of the safety case that they have put forward.
I refer you to question 3. I think AOPAs stance on this would be of great interest. I still dont understand how they are engaging pilots, and politicians and MEPS (if appropriate). Can you tell us?
Rustle
You agree with everything AOPA does as well as reminding us at every opportunity we have been warned so there is nothing new there but thanks for taking part.
Thank God I am not married to you though - I can imagine every time something went wrong your saying.
I TOLD YOU SO
(why do I have to add the icon
)
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Fuji.
I am sorry I have discussed as much with you as I am prepared to.
If you want to know know more than I have told you please contact Martin Robson at AOPA and ask him for the details.
I have enough work to do actually working on this stuff in the right places without having to justify every move that AOPA does to you.
Are you an AOPA member? If so just ask AOPA directly. If not then you really have no right to question AOPA's activities.
Now as far as your own crusade is concerned, go get em tiger.
I am sorry I have discussed as much with you as I am prepared to.
If you want to know know more than I have told you please contact Martin Robson at AOPA and ask him for the details.
I have enough work to do actually working on this stuff in the right places without having to justify every move that AOPA does to you.
Are you an AOPA member? If so just ask AOPA directly. If not then you really have no right to question AOPA's activities.
Now as far as your own crusade is concerned, go get em tiger.
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Bose
Fair enough.
I was afraid that was the conclusion we would reach.
Is it just me who would like to understand what AOPA are doing,? Clearly it is all top secret?
Such a shame that they are unable to engage the people they represent - not that I am even clear who they are!
It is not your fault Bose - c'se I guess they read these forums as well and I appreciate you do your little bit.
Mind you, you can fall out with me if you like, but about twenty posts ago you said that was your last, twenty posts later it is your last again perhaps conveniently becasue it seems when ever people try and understand what is taking place the answers arent forthcoming or are intrigueingly vague.
What an earth is so secret about letting everyone know about the safety case AOPA has presented in support of the IMCr - I would have thought they would want the world to know.
Well I am inclinded to publish my own warning:
So I shall warn everyone when the IMCr is lost it is because AOPA and the other representative bodies decided not to engage with the people they represent earlier enough for it too make a difference. You read it here - I warned you
Is it just me who believes our representative bodies should bring this message to us - not that we should have to ask them what the message is?
It is bizarre.
Fair enough.
I was afraid that was the conclusion we would reach.
Is it just me who would like to understand what AOPA are doing,? Clearly it is all top secret?
Such a shame that they are unable to engage the people they represent - not that I am even clear who they are!
It is not your fault Bose - c'se I guess they read these forums as well and I appreciate you do your little bit.
Mind you, you can fall out with me if you like, but about twenty posts ago you said that was your last, twenty posts later it is your last again perhaps conveniently becasue it seems when ever people try and understand what is taking place the answers arent forthcoming or are intrigueingly vague.
What an earth is so secret about letting everyone know about the safety case AOPA has presented in support of the IMCr - I would have thought they would want the world to know.
Well I am inclinded to publish my own warning:
So I shall warn everyone when the IMCr is lost it is because AOPA and the other representative bodies decided not to engage with the people they represent earlier enough for it too make a difference. You read it here - I warned you
Is it just me who believes our representative bodies should bring this message to us - not that we should have to ask them what the message is?
It is bizarre.
