PLEASE READ THIS AND HELP SAVE GA IN THE UK - Save the IMCR
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Well considering all the hot air blowing on here, I am sure Fuji's next plan is to get you all to stick your hands in your pockets for a fighting fund, shortly after I wonder if his Canoe will be found on a beach.........
I should imagine in realty there are enough interested parties to mount some sort of legal challenge. How far it would go remains to be seen. I would stand to be guided by some of the lawyers on here.
The point I have been trying to make all along is Fuji is fighting with the wrong person, I and AOPA are stout supporters of the IMCR.
It is just sad that he seems so intent on diverting his attentions from a worthy cause to attack AOPA.
I should imagine in realty there are enough interested parties to mount some sort of legal challenge. How far it would go remains to be seen. I would stand to be guided by some of the lawyers on here.
The point I have been trying to make all along is Fuji is fighting with the wrong person, I and AOPA are stout supporters of the IMCR.
It is just sad that he seems so intent on diverting his attentions from a worthy cause to attack AOPA.
Fly Conventional Gear
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The point I have been trying to make all along is Fuji is fighting with the wrong person, I and AOPA are stout supporters of the IMCR.
Hopefully if there is a legal basis for cases to be brought the combined strength of the UK's FTOs will have enough clout to put up a reasonable fight.
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I am not at liberty to post the actual documents to a faceless bulletin board however I can assure you that the representations have been extensive including a safety case for retaining the IMCR.
Since its inception in the 1970s, the UK CAA has issued 18,000 IMC Ratings.
In looking at the statistics over the period 1980 – 2004, there are very few cases where pilots have lost control whilst legally using
the privileges of the IMC Rating in a serviceable aeroplane in UK airspace. In 25 years only 3 were found to have been failure to cope by IMC Rating holders.
This we know, but what we will never know is how many cases there were where the IMC rating got people out of trouble.
We do not have actual statistics for the other countries in Europe, but we do know that there are considerably more accidents caused by inadvertent or even intentional flight into IMC where the pilot has not been able to cope than there are in the UK.
The Arguments for Adopting the IMC Rating throughout Europe
• The IMC Rating has been a key element in the UK’s programme to improve safety standards amongst General Aviation (GA) private pilots, instructors and even CPL holders who do not hold an Instrument Rating, through the additional training for more than 30 years.
• The IMC Rating, which has been held by 18,000 UK GA pilots, is considered to be one of the reasons why the UK has achieved one of the best GA safety records in Europe.
• A number of pilots from mainland Europe are prepared to come to the UK each year to train for the IMC Rating, even though they may only exercise its privileges in UK airspace, as it gives them additional experience and confidence in their flying.
• The incidence of controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) and loss of control accidents are thought to have been significantly reduced as a result of the UK’s IMC training programme. These accidents are almost always fatal and it is thought that large numbers of lives have been saved.
• At mixed GA and CAT airports it is generally safer and simpler to have as many approaching and departing aircraft as possible following a single set of procedures. The IMC Rating makes this possible.
• In the interests of safety and utility almost all manufacturers of light aircraft now equip their aircraft with instruments required for IFR flight. A European flight crew licensing system, which does not provide for private pilots to be trained in the use of these safety enhancing instruments, is inappropriate and contrary to the interests of safety.
• No European Agency should be introducing legislation, which prohibits the use of safety enhancing equipment.
• For pilots wishing to progress to a full Instrument Rating the IMC Rating is a natural stepping stone.
• Any attempt to introduce European licensing laws, which remove the privileges of UK IMC Rating holders is likely to produce a very hostile reaction from large numbers of general aviation pilots, with well funded legal challenges to EASA.
We believe that with the IMC Rating we, in the UK, have the highest safety standard for non instrument rated pilots in Europe – think how we could improve the standard of safety in GA throughout Europe if all EU Member States were able to benefit from allowing their GA pilots to train for and hold the IMC Rating.
There is no threat to Commercial Air Transport aircraft from this activity. On the contrary, infringements into their airspace are less likely to occur by a holder of an IMC Rating, than by an untrained pilot flying inadvertently into their airspace and losing control.
Europe needs this rating – give European GA pilots the chance to go for it, and for UK pilots to be able to retain it!
.. .. .. we are getting some where.
Nothing would please me more if AOPA engaged everyone - all I have pointed out is they havent and sought to explain why. Prove to me they have and I will desist.
I know you dont like it - but if you think it is a done deal that the IMC rating is lost as the AOPA rep. dont be surprised if the rest of us are rather concerned!!
Moreover if that is what is in your mind how do you reconcile that with the campaign to save it?
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.......because you ignorant git if you had bother to read what I had said in the past rather than selectively highlighting things to make your own venomous attacks on AOPA you would realise that my OPINION is nothing to do with carrying on the fight. I don't want to see the IMCR lost just like everyone else however I am pragmatic enough to see the erosion of our liberties in the name of an intergrated Europe and realise that politicians follow their own agenda regardless of the dogs they pat and the babies they kiss.
I am perfectly entitled to express an opinion as you do so vociferously against AOPA.
You harass me into a posting stating AOPA's stand and then venomously post my refusal to post DOCUMENTS. Your are beneath contempt.
AOPA engage the MEMBERSHIP, if people choose to ignore it then that is there choice, if people outside of the AOPA membership expect to be engaged then they are on a hiding to nowhere.
As you can see from my post AOPA strongly support not only the case for retaining the IMCR but also for making it available across Europe.
Enough has been said on this subject now and I am getting tired of your endless childish insults. If you want to be taken seriously then concentrate on the game not trying to score points off those who have dedicated themselves to keeping up the fight without endless self trumpet blowing.
You want to save the IMCR then go ahead and do it. You are on your own.
I am perfectly entitled to express an opinion as you do so vociferously against AOPA.
You harass me into a posting stating AOPA's stand and then venomously post my refusal to post DOCUMENTS. Your are beneath contempt.
AOPA engage the MEMBERSHIP, if people choose to ignore it then that is there choice, if people outside of the AOPA membership expect to be engaged then they are on a hiding to nowhere.
As you can see from my post AOPA strongly support not only the case for retaining the IMCR but also for making it available across Europe.
Enough has been said on this subject now and I am getting tired of your endless childish insults. If you want to be taken seriously then concentrate on the game not trying to score points off those who have dedicated themselves to keeping up the fight without endless self trumpet blowing.
You want to save the IMCR then go ahead and do it. You are on your own.
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You want to save the IMCR then go ahead and do it. You are on your own.
I regret you think I have it in for AOPA - actually I say again I dont.
There would have been two outcomes to all this:
1. Lets leave it to AOPA
2. We had better do something about it ourselves, so that together with AOPA, the PPL IR, the GA Alliance and a few others we get what we want.
We already have links in place on our web site to all of these organisations, including AOPA - do you think they would be there if I had it in for AOPA for the sake of it.
You are so far involved with AOPA you cant see the wood for the trees.
If you cant or will not read the various forums and the comments here and indeed on AOPAs bulletins boards in which pilots set out what they want from AOPA then you are dangerously close to not understanding your job is to represent and engage with your members.
I promise you I dont make them up. They arent phantoms of my imagination.
I guarantee you I would like nothing more for AOPA to take on board these comments, tell us on their web site what they are doing, why they are doing it and how they are going about it.
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Why on earth is everyone getting so angry?
Good grief!
It seems that just about everyone here would like to see the IMC rating saved. The only differences are that some of us believe that this is possible whilst others advocate capitualtion and acceptance of the 'inevitable'.
Good grief!
It seems that just about everyone here would like to see the IMC rating saved. The only differences are that some of us believe that this is possible whilst others advocate capitualtion and acceptance of the 'inevitable'.
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I know you dont like it - but if you think it is a done deal that the IMC rating is lost as the AOPA rep. dont be surprised if the rest of us are rather concerned!!
Enough has been said on this subject now and I am getting tired of your endless childish insults. If you want to be taken seriously then concentrate on the game not trying to score points off those who have dedicated themselves to keeping up the fight without endless self trumpet blowing.
They want us to fight amongst ourselves so that we don't put across a good arguement!
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Originally Posted by julian_storey
Why on earth is everyone getting so angry?
(S)He was advised by various people to leave it out, but has gone on his/her usual ill-informed crusade against the very people who are arguing the case for the IMC's retention far more eloquently than (s)he.
No-one is suggesting "leave it to AOPA to sort", but it would be nice to think people might research their subject before "going off on one".
"Answers, not egos".
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Rustle
You just dont get it and never will.
However, I believe we all should lobby hard and petition hard to win this one because it is really important.
If AOPA, PPL IR, GAA and any of the other organisations also do a good job then we all win and if they dont we will.
It does mean working together for those who want to (and I hope that is everyone). There are many who have more knowledge and more expertise but none who this effects more than all of us.
Committees, politicians, representative groups et al all listen to the weight of opinion, (even if it is sometimes ill informed). I know.
Do not be persuaded otherwise.
You just dont get it and never will.
However, I believe we all should lobby hard and petition hard to win this one because it is really important.
If AOPA, PPL IR, GAA and any of the other organisations also do a good job then we all win and if they dont we will.
It does mean working together for those who want to (and I hope that is everyone). There are many who have more knowledge and more expertise but none who this effects more than all of us.
Committees, politicians, representative groups et al all listen to the weight of opinion, (even if it is sometimes ill informed). I know.
Do not be persuaded otherwise.
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Derekf
Please just take 10.
It is up and running in its "introductory" form but being beta tested by a few top blokes on PPRuNe.
Watch this space and I will post up the link very shortly.
Please just take 10.
It is up and running in its "introductory" form but being beta tested by a few top blokes on PPRuNe.
Watch this space and I will post up the link very shortly.
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Bose, let it lie. If I didn't know you were the same age as me, I'd say you were about 13 by the way you are acting...
PLease, just becuase some of us don't agree with AOPA UK then don't take it personally....
EA
(After a few nice cold "Jule" beers in denmark)...
PLease, just becuase some of us don't agree with AOPA UK then don't take it personally....
EA
(After a few nice cold "Jule" beers in denmark)...
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Originally Posted by englishal
No one is giving you abuse...you just perceive it that way.
No, they were (and still are)
Don't know why bose bothers in all honesty.
Trying to help, offering a load of constructive criticism, and all he gets is kicked in the balls.
Pathetic, really.
But not altogether unexpected from the anti-AOPA rent-a-mob
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What is this, the new Timothy / Gerard side kick show 
Bosey can give as good as he gets.....as he has proved.
Don't mention AOPA...oh you just did, there you go again. Do you want me to now go on about how good all the other European AOPA's are (and hence IAOPA) and how for €60 you can.....
Never mind.....you started it.......
Bosey can give as good as he gets.....as he has proved.
Don't mention AOPA...oh you just did, there you go again. Do you want me to now go on about how good all the other European AOPA's are (and hence IAOPA) and how for €60 you can.....
Never mind.....you started it.......
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Well I am not going to give up, so for those who dont like it, get out the fire.
So there you go, you have got the whole post this time.
Let me sum up what I am trying to get over.
The IMCr is really important. It is worth fighting for because I really believe it makes for a safer pilot. I dont care if you have an IR and IMCr or neither it is worth fighting for. In my view sign the petition because you believe in what it seeks to achieve. Who really cares if the IMCr is 50, 40 or 30 years old.
I am really glad to see a lot already have. Is everyone who has signed - wrong? Should we have preferred to see no names on it because of a single inconsequential error?
and on the AOPA issue, I personally think AOPA have done a bad job on this issue. The reason I go on saying so is because I think it is important to examine the evidence and decide whether we should leave this to AOPA. I honestly believe I and many others have set out the evidence.
To repeat myself if many of your members are raising the said same issues on your own bulleting board I personally think their comments should be taken serioulsy. I would expect to see evidence of that, and I havent - sorry again, but that is the way I feel. Show me the evidence and I will change my tune - happily I might add!
You may disagree. It makes me no less of a friend of yours because you do.
I would sign up if it was not factually incorrect.
If you want to get support for something you need to state the facts correctly......
If you want to get support for something you need to state the facts correctly......
Let me sum up what I am trying to get over.
The IMCr is really important. It is worth fighting for because I really believe it makes for a safer pilot. I dont care if you have an IR and IMCr or neither it is worth fighting for. In my view sign the petition because you believe in what it seeks to achieve. Who really cares if the IMCr is 50, 40 or 30 years old.
I am really glad to see a lot already have. Is everyone who has signed - wrong? Should we have preferred to see no names on it because of a single inconsequential error?
and on the AOPA issue, I personally think AOPA have done a bad job on this issue. The reason I go on saying so is because I think it is important to examine the evidence and decide whether we should leave this to AOPA. I honestly believe I and many others have set out the evidence.
To repeat myself if many of your members are raising the said same issues on your own bulleting board I personally think their comments should be taken serioulsy. I would expect to see evidence of that, and I havent - sorry again, but that is the way I feel. Show me the evidence and I will change my tune - happily I might add!
You may disagree. It makes me no less of a friend of yours because you do.