BA Strike - Your Thoughts & Questions II
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notlangley
BA stopped flying London to Melbourne. So our money now goes into the pockets of Qantas. We would prefer to pay our money to BA. BA loses money on the London-Sydney route. Hopefully with the Mixed Fleet it could well be economic for BA to expand its business, flying to Melbourne and other similar places
They were all popular routes, but costs do matter. Hopefully if they get the costs right then BA can start expanding again and employ more cabin crew not less.
Long term job security should be important but not to BASSA.
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Why would anyone not accept the new offer from BA?
An interesting response to a question posted to BF today - alas I cannot post on the other forum as am not Cabin Crew myself but the partner of one such Main Crew Member. The question was asked in relation to the Variable pay top up payment and BF has confirmed that the allowances (such as B2B etc) will continue to be paid as they are now but if these allowances to not amount to £6616 (main crew) for the year Nov 1 2010 - Oct 31 2011 then a top up payment to this amount will be paid. Earnings above the quoted figure are yours to keep. The rumours and scare mongering off all allowances disappearing seems to have been just that (think that goes back to the MTP which was on the previous offer which was withdrawn.
Having calculated the last years allowances earnt my partner for one would receive a top up payment of nearly £1000. (pehraps thats due to dire rostas!!!)
So what have you got to lose by not accepting the offer. I guess it needed someone to ask the question to clarify it from the "horses mouth" so to speak rather than listening to the "twaddle" on Galley FM and other sources. My partner for one was one who had believed they would have been worse off/lost out on the allowances.
Anyone else have any thoughts or comments on this new Variable Top Up Pay and allowances feel free to ask - am more than happy to paste in the full response from BF
Having calculated the last years allowances earnt my partner for one would receive a top up payment of nearly £1000. (pehraps thats due to dire rostas!!!)
So what have you got to lose by not accepting the offer. I guess it needed someone to ask the question to clarify it from the "horses mouth" so to speak rather than listening to the "twaddle" on Galley FM and other sources. My partner for one was one who had believed they would have been worse off/lost out on the allowances.
Anyone else have any thoughts or comments on this new Variable Top Up Pay and allowances feel free to ask - am more than happy to paste in the full response from BF
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Anyone else have any thoughts or comments on this new Variable Top Up Pay and allowances feel free to ask - am more than happy to paste in the full response from BF
The principle of such a penalty just doesnt sit well with me, it wont always be the current management team in place after all.
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I'm not happy with the clause that will remove the top up payment in the event of any future strike. The next one may well be fully justified after all.
The principle of such a penalty just doesnt sit well with me, it wont always be the current management team in place after all.
The principle of such a penalty just doesnt sit well with me, it wont always be the current management team in place after all.
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Snas #493
I'm not happy with the clause that will remove the top up payment in the event of any future strike. The next one may well be fully justified after all.
The principle of such a penalty just doesnt sit well with me, it wont always be the current management team in place after all.
The principle of such a penalty just doesnt sit well with me, it wont always be the current management team in place after all.
My view on this is that the logical, rather than emotional, response to adopt is:
1. Accept the agreement, warts and all.
2. Find some representatives who are, well, more representative of staff to replace the ones you currently have. The main problem right now is that it's obvious how little (ie zero) respect current representatives command with BA's management.
3. Determine with those new reps what you would most like to change in the agreement.
4. Wait till BA's financial circumstances improve, which they will sometime! At that point BA will be more revenue-focussed and not so cost-focussed as now. There will come a time when they want staff to agree to something, at which point you can say "we'll agree to X but we want Y". Assuming you have colleagues who share your view on the linking of strike action and removal of top up payments, that can be the "Y" you ask for.
From the outside looking in, the best (least bad?) course of action right now is undoubtedly to accept the deal on offer and not try to negotiate it any further.
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It is unlikely that BA will resume MEL services as the result of its joint services agreement with Qantas has been that its brand identity has been practically wiped out in Australia and substantially diminished in South East Asia.
BA is now being seriously outplayed by Qantas and Asian carriers between its remaining Far East points and London as these offer higher frequencies and a much wider spread of services through the day including eastbound daylight services. BA's cabin crew rest agreements make it very difficult to offer these as their inabiliy to serve meals other than at the beginning and end of flights mean along period of relative famine in the cabin, something orientals in particular find it difficult to live with.A by-product of this is higher costs through lower aircraft utilisation as the eastbound aircaft have long layovers so that they can operate back overnight.This is another factor in their higher cost levels than their competitors on eastern services which goes some way to explaining their apparent lack of enthusiasm for developing business in this fast growing but often low yield area.
BA is now being seriously outplayed by Qantas and Asian carriers between its remaining Far East points and London as these offer higher frequencies and a much wider spread of services through the day including eastbound daylight services. BA's cabin crew rest agreements make it very difficult to offer these as their inabiliy to serve meals other than at the beginning and end of flights mean along period of relative famine in the cabin, something orientals in particular find it difficult to live with.A by-product of this is higher costs through lower aircraft utilisation as the eastbound aircaft have long layovers so that they can operate back overnight.This is another factor in their higher cost levels than their competitors on eastern services which goes some way to explaining their apparent lack of enthusiasm for developing business in this fast growing but often low yield area.
Paxing All Over The World
Thanks for that VERY informative background Skylion. As I have said before (too many times) the die is long cast and BA is at the end of it's natural life span. It has lost market share which would take years and high cost to recover. They have neither in hand.
I say this with no delight but simply as I see it. BA will not be in the form that it is now within five years. IRRESPECTIVE of the outcome of this dispute, because the mistakes were made 10 and 20 years ago.
In this regard, the problem is very similar to the financial crisis that finally blew up in 2008. It was started 20 years earlier and it was stonkingly obvious that it was going to happen. By the time it did blow up - those who created it were all safely retired and on the golf course. The ones who were fiddling at the time of the blow out - were small fry and just the children of the ones who made the problem. Sure, they were doing stupid things - but only because that's how it had always been in the 5/10/20 years they had been in the financial business.
Mankind is not so clever as to make lots of new mistakes - they just make the same mistake in different ways.
Game over.
I say this with no delight but simply as I see it. BA will not be in the form that it is now within five years. IRRESPECTIVE of the outcome of this dispute, because the mistakes were made 10 and 20 years ago.
In this regard, the problem is very similar to the financial crisis that finally blew up in 2008. It was started 20 years earlier and it was stonkingly obvious that it was going to happen. By the time it did blow up - those who created it were all safely retired and on the golf course. The ones who were fiddling at the time of the blow out - were small fry and just the children of the ones who made the problem. Sure, they were doing stupid things - but only because that's how it had always been in the 5/10/20 years they had been in the financial business.
Mankind is not so clever as to make lots of new mistakes - they just make the same mistake in different ways.
Game over.
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PAXboy: With all due respect I believe your post arrives to a conclusion that may be based more on personal opinion rather than market driven actions.
BA's loss of market share is significant, but directly attributable to, for the most part, having within its ranks a small extreme and militant part of its Cabin Crew work force. BA is close, and only has to be in a position to declare victory over this disruptive cancer to be able to reassure the flying public that there flights are no longer endangered by the actions of this militant group and they can regain the trust of the flying public.
Hardly that simple. There is a reason why BA has retained the advocacy of it's investors. Its because, due to BA's rather impressive actions, and its taking advantage of BASSA's mistakes in this episode, its not so much "Game over"..with the start of Mixed Fleet, etc., its rather more "Game On".
It has lost market share which would take years and high cost to recover. They have neither in hand.
Game over.
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Notlangley:
During the Malone et al., v BA action where BASSA attempted to restrain BA from implementing the one-down staffing changes there was testimony by BASSA members that seemed to leave the judge a tad stunned.
BASSA's sense of entitlement regarding having a say in the day to day business operations of the airline was incredible. Even more so when you consider that we are speaking of individuals such as Duncan Holley and Liz Malone. Hardly business executive material.
During the Malone et al., v BA action where BASSA attempted to restrain BA from implementing the one-down staffing changes there was testimony by BASSA members that seemed to leave the judge a tad stunned.
BASSA's sense of entitlement regarding having a say in the day to day business operations of the airline was incredible. Even more so when you consider that we are speaking of individuals such as Duncan Holley and Liz Malone. Hardly business executive material.
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Skylion.
I think you will find that the rest requied on long range flights is set by the CAA and not something insisted upon by the union.
It may well be that other airlines flying under the flags of other countries may work to different agreements but I am sure that most have a similar system. On long flights there is a legal requirement to have a certain amount of bunk rest, depending on the flight length, in order that the flight can legally be that long.
I think it is great that you all take an interest in BA and it's crew but I find the level of mis-imformation very high. Sometimes it seems like people just think something and then type it out as if it is fact, not really having enough detailed knowledge of the subject to do so.
I think you will find that the rest requied on long range flights is set by the CAA and not something insisted upon by the union.
It may well be that other airlines flying under the flags of other countries may work to different agreements but I am sure that most have a similar system. On long flights there is a legal requirement to have a certain amount of bunk rest, depending on the flight length, in order that the flight can legally be that long.
I think it is great that you all take an interest in BA and it's crew but I find the level of mis-imformation very high. Sometimes it seems like people just think something and then type it out as if it is fact, not really having enough detailed knowledge of the subject to do so.
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I think it is great that you all take an interest in BA and it's crew but I find the level of mis-imformation very high. Sometimes it seems like people just think something and then type it out as if it is fact, not really having enough detailed knowledge of the subject to do so.
Paxing All Over The World
Diplome
Which is why I said that I have held this view for a long time and the overall destiny of BA has very little to do with this particular dispute. Certainly, their failure to manage their own staff is a key facet of their downfall but by no means the only.
I do not think that the satisfactory resolution of this dispute (which I anticipate soon) will make any long term difference to their prospects. Yes, it will be 'Game On' for a while but companies rise and fall very slowly. I repeat that I do not say the above with any delight and do not work in the airline biz. I have worked in many varied fields of commerce and govt over the last 33 years (in multiple countries and for multinationals) and I am simply applying what I have seen everywhere else to BA. Perhaps they will buck the rest of the world and be the one that climbs back on top.
PAXboy: With all due respect I believe your post arrives to a conclusion that may be based more on personal opinion rather than market driven actions.
I do not think that the satisfactory resolution of this dispute (which I anticipate soon) will make any long term difference to their prospects. Yes, it will be 'Game On' for a while but companies rise and fall very slowly. I repeat that I do not say the above with any delight and do not work in the airline biz. I have worked in many varied fields of commerce and govt over the last 33 years (in multiple countries and for multinationals) and I am simply applying what I have seen everywhere else to BA. Perhaps they will buck the rest of the world and be the one that climbs back on top.
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Diplome,
You are quite right. Many people that post on the cabin crew forum, work on the ground for BA or another airline or fly for another airline etc. or may just want to put a particular slant on things and as such incorrect information often gets posted on there too. I think it is a fault within all people in general, whether they fly or not, to post on forums with infomation they think is right even though they don't actually know it to be.
That's probably why this forum is called Professional Pilots Rumour Networks, because alot of what we read is just rumour. I do however try myself to make a distinction between what I know to be correct information and what I have heard as a rumour. Just having read the last couple of pages on this particular thread gave me the impression that people write things as fact when they actually don't know that to be true.
I certainly did not want to stop you making any comments because I do think it is very valuable to hear all of your points of view and I do hope that when all of this IA is over you are all brave enough to continue to fly with BA again. I value all our regular passengers and being on Eurofleet I often carry regular passengers over and over again and know some of you very well.
Thanks.
You are quite right. Many people that post on the cabin crew forum, work on the ground for BA or another airline or fly for another airline etc. or may just want to put a particular slant on things and as such incorrect information often gets posted on there too. I think it is a fault within all people in general, whether they fly or not, to post on forums with infomation they think is right even though they don't actually know it to be.
That's probably why this forum is called Professional Pilots Rumour Networks, because alot of what we read is just rumour. I do however try myself to make a distinction between what I know to be correct information and what I have heard as a rumour. Just having read the last couple of pages on this particular thread gave me the impression that people write things as fact when they actually don't know that to be true.
I certainly did not want to stop you making any comments because I do think it is very valuable to hear all of your points of view and I do hope that when all of this IA is over you are all brave enough to continue to fly with BA again. I value all our regular passengers and being on Eurofleet I often carry regular passengers over and over again and know some of you very well.
Thanks.
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PAXboy:
Ancient Observer has also posted concerns regarding BA's lack of leadership within its management ranks and also maintains that without changes in this area BA solving of its BASSA problem will have little effect in the long run.
Having been inspired by comments here and having my curiosity aroused I've done some searching regarding how BA arrived at this juncture and must agree that the leftover culture of being a state owned company still permeates certain areas and must be resolved.
However, I am encouraged at some of the actions being taken by BA management at the moment and am cautiously hopeful that the Board is looking to assert itself and drag this company into the 21st century.
One small step that I believe will have substantial downline positives is BA's insistence that Mixed Fleet will operate separately from present crew with no mingling.
Having mismanaged their relationship with BASSA for so long it seems that BA finally realize that the only solution is to finally take steps to marginalize the negative influence of BASSA's more militant members on their workforce.
Ancient Observer has also posted concerns regarding BA's lack of leadership within its management ranks and also maintains that without changes in this area BA solving of its BASSA problem will have little effect in the long run.
Having been inspired by comments here and having my curiosity aroused I've done some searching regarding how BA arrived at this juncture and must agree that the leftover culture of being a state owned company still permeates certain areas and must be resolved.
However, I am encouraged at some of the actions being taken by BA management at the moment and am cautiously hopeful that the Board is looking to assert itself and drag this company into the 21st century.
One small step that I believe will have substantial downline positives is BA's insistence that Mixed Fleet will operate separately from present crew with no mingling.
Having mismanaged their relationship with BASSA for so long it seems that BA finally realize that the only solution is to finally take steps to marginalize the negative influence of BASSA's more militant members on their workforce.
Emptiness, despair, anger
Emptiness, despair, anger - a customer perspective
I was due to fly to holiday yesterday on a "package" holiday to Rome. It was not with BA.
The flight was cancelled with no reason given, while we were in the departure lounge, (the desk in the departures lounge thought it was due to lack of crew, but no "formal" reason was given).
I had forgotten the emotions involved when one's carefully planned and much looked-forward to holidays are brutally cancelled at no notice. The emptiness, despair and anger were all very strong. (I could go on and on about the emotions). Much stronger than I had remembered.
The BA CC who are still supporting this strike appear to have no concern whatsoever for their customers. They wanted strikes over Christmas, they went out on strike over the UK school holidays, and now they want another strike.
I'm just one family person. Will the potential strikers ever think of the many thousands of families and other people that they are seeking to disadvantage with their incredibly inward looking calls for strikes?............especially when they don't appear to even know what they are striking about, other than asking some very highly paid supervisors to push a trolley?
Some of the strikers say that they do care about their customers, and are striking for better service levels.
I am now completely clear in my mind that that is total and utter codswallop.
I think I've been relatively neutral in this dispute. I've blamed BA as much as CC. No longer. Whilst BA managers created the history that bassa could "run" the airline, all of that must now stop. bassa will end up with the same fate as the NGA. (I'll leave out the history lesson about the NGA)
I was due to fly to holiday yesterday on a "package" holiday to Rome. It was not with BA.
The flight was cancelled with no reason given, while we were in the departure lounge, (the desk in the departures lounge thought it was due to lack of crew, but no "formal" reason was given).
I had forgotten the emotions involved when one's carefully planned and much looked-forward to holidays are brutally cancelled at no notice. The emptiness, despair and anger were all very strong. (I could go on and on about the emotions). Much stronger than I had remembered.
The BA CC who are still supporting this strike appear to have no concern whatsoever for their customers. They wanted strikes over Christmas, they went out on strike over the UK school holidays, and now they want another strike.
I'm just one family person. Will the potential strikers ever think of the many thousands of families and other people that they are seeking to disadvantage with their incredibly inward looking calls for strikes?............especially when they don't appear to even know what they are striking about, other than asking some very highly paid supervisors to push a trolley?
Some of the strikers say that they do care about their customers, and are striking for better service levels.
I am now completely clear in my mind that that is total and utter codswallop.
I think I've been relatively neutral in this dispute. I've blamed BA as much as CC. No longer. Whilst BA managers created the history that bassa could "run" the airline, all of that must now stop. bassa will end up with the same fate as the NGA. (I'll leave out the history lesson about the NGA)
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Ancient Observer:
I'm sorry your holiday was spoiled. How odd that no explanation was given.
I will happily admit that I dismissed all the early "We're striking for our customers" and "Its about maintaining service levels" rhetoric very early on after learning of the infamous "War of the Hot Towels".
Service cannot improve until BASSA is marginalized. They will fight any and all improvements unless there is a "trade" which, as they demanded in the hot towels case, amounts to millions of dollars in costs for the company.
Hope you and your spouse are okay and that you find a solution/alternative to this disruption.
I'm sorry your holiday was spoiled. How odd that no explanation was given.
I will happily admit that I dismissed all the early "We're striking for our customers" and "Its about maintaining service levels" rhetoric very early on after learning of the infamous "War of the Hot Towels".
Service cannot improve until BASSA is marginalized. They will fight any and all improvements unless there is a "trade" which, as they demanded in the hot towels case, amounts to millions of dollars in costs for the company.
Hope you and your spouse are okay and that you find a solution/alternative to this disruption.
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During the Malone et al., v BA action where BASSA attempted to restrain BA from implementing the one-down staffing changes there was testimony by BASSA members that seemed to leave the judge a tad stunned.
BASSA's sense of entitlement regarding having a say in the day to day business operations of the airline was incredible. Even more so when you consider that we are speaking of individuals such as Duncan Holley and Liz Malone. Hardly business executive material.
BASSA's sense of entitlement regarding having a say in the day to day business operations of the airline was incredible. Even more so when you consider that we are speaking of individuals such as Duncan Holley and Liz Malone. Hardly business executive material.
Then they wondered why they lost!
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Thankyou Betty Girl but I do in fact know BA and what goes on rather well.
BA's cabin crew rest periods are generally way above CAA requirements and are configured in such a way- ie occupying all but the first couple and last of hours of long haul flights,- that mid flight meals are not possible,notably in World Traveller.Too often "To Fly to Rest" seems to be the guiding principle, and what I say about the resultant difficulties with 12 hour plus daylight flights are as I describe.
Another nonsense you will be familiar with on short haul is the refusal to treat a transit through Heathrow just like any other aiport and to require minimum layover times there which make it impossible to roster short haul aircraft, pilots and cabin crew to operate through it and stay together through the day's work. All 3 are rostered separately which results in massive disruption and cancellations once bad weather or whatever interrupts the schedules.The earlier in the day the problem occurs the greater the damage. The extended cabin crew LHR transist also mean that 4 sector days become impossible, thus generating more night stops=more crew=higher costs. One result is that other than as a feeder to long haul BA can not make money on nearly all of short haul despite the massive investment in aircraft etc it requires and would be well shot of it."Go" was probably the answer, failing which franchises which provided a BA branded operation at no cost to BA.
BA's cabin crew rest periods are generally way above CAA requirements and are configured in such a way- ie occupying all but the first couple and last of hours of long haul flights,- that mid flight meals are not possible,notably in World Traveller.Too often "To Fly to Rest" seems to be the guiding principle, and what I say about the resultant difficulties with 12 hour plus daylight flights are as I describe.
Another nonsense you will be familiar with on short haul is the refusal to treat a transit through Heathrow just like any other aiport and to require minimum layover times there which make it impossible to roster short haul aircraft, pilots and cabin crew to operate through it and stay together through the day's work. All 3 are rostered separately which results in massive disruption and cancellations once bad weather or whatever interrupts the schedules.The earlier in the day the problem occurs the greater the damage. The extended cabin crew LHR transist also mean that 4 sector days become impossible, thus generating more night stops=more crew=higher costs. One result is that other than as a feeder to long haul BA can not make money on nearly all of short haul despite the massive investment in aircraft etc it requires and would be well shot of it."Go" was probably the answer, failing which franchises which provided a BA branded operation at no cost to BA.
Skylion - I can confirm that the crew rest on long haul flights is way above anything ever required by the UK CAA.
On the short haul foul-up at lhr, there was much discussion of this in detail in the "combined" thread a few months ago.
On the short haul foul-up at lhr, there was much discussion of this in detail in the "combined" thread a few months ago.