AOPA - 4 Directors resign

[brianh]

FAIR GO

Woomera

It will not be me copying the thread to another forum, but let me add that my comment thereafter would be: -

1. At 1430 hours today I PM'ed you (Woomera) with a complaint to the moderator as follows:
"As Gary has posted since I suggested he clean up his act, I provide you with the content of my request: -
Gary,

and Mr on-duty Woomera.


On reflection, I do not think it is a good thing for a person of Forum Moderator status to set an example of beating the auto censor several times in one post. I refer of course to the post of 12:11 today which used the terms "Bulls hit" and "@rse".

This is not a dip at the poster as the mirror I am holding up is undoubtedly causing some reflkected heat. I am prepared to debate matters vigorously, but preferably with a degree of savoir faire as befits the viewers sensitivities.

We surely do not want to start a campaign of creative auto-censor beating on this Forum as it will probably then move to the F and C words and lower the quality and morality of the cut and thrust of debate.

All things in moderation, so to speak?".

I note that two hours later the content is unchanged. So it is acceptable for Gary to use the terms Bulls hit and @rse in his postings.

2. It seems quite OK for Gary to make personal attacks on me. He remains unwarned. I ask him some hard (unanswered)questions and suddenly he is under personal attack?

Anyway, he is not going to answer so you are quite correct in directing matters back to the thread. Plus it saves one of his alter egos or team coming on and going through the usual diatribe that anyone who questions Gary is anti AOPA, from a grubby little website, a troglodyte, personally attacking him, and so on.

I do not believe there is anything of personal attack or requiring censorship in the above but if you feel so please advise.
cheers
brianh
(and for all viewers, if you check the profiles of many posters you will find mine 100% factual - like Clark Rubber I stand behind what I post. You will find many interesting diversions in the profiles of some other posters and can make your own mind up from there).

[Woomera]

Mr Garrylous:

A few people offend me with their interpretation of the PPRuNe posting rules. If I post – as I did above – that post is somewhat more intelligent and constructive than:

Poor old AOPA, always the whingers and destroyers.

Go away Mr Gaunt.

If you wish to remain a participant in this debate, you will both read the rules and lift the quality of your posts.


Brianh

If memory serves me correctly, you and I have disagreed about your posts and other matters in the past? Indeed, if I recall correctly you spent some time trying to convince me that I was someone other than who I am?

I have three comments:

1. At 1430 hours today I was engaged in my profession, which takes precedence over my voluntary duties as a Moderator.

2. As at 1705 hours today no PM or email has been received from you.

3. There have been many, many instances where words have been posted in PPRuNe over many years which, if spelt differently, would have been auto censored. Your alleged PM above is very selective – or do you wish me to go back over the history of the D&G forums editing out all the words you don’t like? Frankly, if they are not auto censored, I don’t have time - or interest - to manually moderate, delete or "censor".

I have no interest (either as Woomera or in my private capacity as a member of PPRuNe) in participating in this debate. Future posts in this thread – without exception - will be moderated on the basis of PPRuNe Rules and the standards which the vast majority of PPRuNe Users expect.

Woomera

[Air Ace]

Garrylous:

"......and while AOPA is the PPLs union, it will represent PPLs against the likes of the ATC Union."

Questions:
Are you seriously suggesting AOPA "is the PPLs union" whose purpose it is to stand against "the ATC Union"??????
Are you qualified to speak on AOPA corporate policy?????

Let me make it abundantly clear to you that, in the absence of AOPA's legal recognition as a trade union, to quote from Ops Normal (albeit out of context but in similar vein):
"This claim is unfounded, wrong and arrogant in its extreme. You do not speak for me, you do not speak for my company, my workmates, and from the feeling that I have been able to ascertain from talking to other people in the industry is that the arrogance of past few years has done you no favours with the very people who work in this industry you would need to be attracting to become members of your organisation."

I have an excellent working relationship with many and various in the aviation industry, including Air Traffic Controllers in who I have the highest respect and trust. I certainly don't need you or your insignificant and irrelevant organisation to interfer in those excellent relationships!!



Ace

[Disco Stu]

A quote from Garrylous

"As for the 'CPLs' who feel left out, well you will be won't you. You are not members"

Firstly I do not know who you are or on what authority you make such a statement. I certainly hope you have no official role in the currently gutted AOPA, it would be very sad and of major concern if you did.

Nowhere in any AOPA membership paperwork is it indicated that my holding a CPL makes me a non member.

I do get the distinct impression from your posts that there will of little value from you in this ongoing AOPA debate. Shame really, AOPA is too important to be side tracked by your piffle.

Anyway Garrylous, what would I know, apparently I am a non member because I hold a current CPL.

Garrylous, please heed your own advice and go away.

Sorry Woom, I hope by highlighting this atrocious statement by Garrylous that others will see his/her 'contribution' for what it is actually worth.

Disco Stu
Commercial Pilot and AOPA Member.

[tobzalp]

Air Ace beat me to it. PPL/ATC Union Attack? care to...

If you wish to remain a participant in this debate, you will both read the rules and lift the quality of your posts.

Just a side note. You people do realise that the internet is the public domain and others can actually see this thread and the goings on and infighting don't you?

[OpsNormal]

Ace, you've almost got to admire their confrontational attitude eh?

Garrylous: A "union" for what amounts to be a minor part of the equation? Nice work, if you can get it.

One would have thought you would have been better off trying to attract a broad cross section of the industry and recreational fliers (don't even think of continuing to call yourselves GA because you are not), listening to them, and then seeking to adequately represent the masses. Instead, your organisation, without actually seeking the consultation of the actual industry, maintains that they speak for it! ROTFLMAO!!!

The old saying, you attract more flies into your trap with honey rather than poo.....

Convince me and the thousands of others waiting for your wise words! Don't forget that you are posting on what amounts to a Professional pilots platform for the exchange of information.

I put my money where my mouth is and if you can convince me that you can adequately represent me and the other GA industry pilots then I will join AOPA.

Gauntlet thrown......

[Garrylous]

Stu

If you are a member then make your voice heard. I was not referring to individuals, just a collective.

For example, some plumbers may be members of an electrician's union by virtue of their double trade. However, where the electricians dominate, so then will thier opinions.

Were CPLs to take up arms and rejoin en-masse then their voice would prevail. There are those on the current AOPA Board who would like to see that (but then, there are at least three CPLs (or higher) on that Board anyway).

Am I in a position of authority. No. I was once, but I am not now. Do I talk to those that are, yes, often.

[Air Ace]

OpsNormal.

Admire their confrontational attitude? No! I'm dumfounded with their sanctimonious, arrogant, superior stupidity!

I could not believe my eyes when I read Garrylous post!!!!

[brianh]

SYSTEM PROBLEM

Woomera

I would apologise that my message was not received, however, as I followed the correct procedure to report the post to a moderator I feel I cannot accept the blame for a system problem in Pprune. As it was lodged at 1430 on the "Report this post to a moderator" in Gary's 12.11 post, perhaps the systems people might care to look or the glitch as part of the continuous improvement process.

Fortunately I copied it and emailed myself a copy or it would have been lost to posterity.

I raised an issue re the skilful use of wording to beat the auto censor. You have adjudicated, and I accept that it is now kosher to do so. Personally, I believe someone who is a Pp moderator should set a personal example (I'm not referring to you) but I accept that my opinion must be guided by moderator judgement.

Insofar as your and my past disagreement is concerned, I suspect that it was the one where I was confused between who was the on-duty Woomera and picked a time when it was you on deck not Gary Gaunt. If memory serves me right, you did have some concern about my post and referred it to Admin who left it alone. If you have any residual concern, perhaps a PM although i do not guarantee to receive it <grin>.
cheers

[Islander Jock]

Air Ace,

Right On!

Am I in a position of authority. No. I was once, but I am not now. Do I talk to those that are, yes, often

Hate to say it folks but looks like he's back. Must be too quiet for him on AGACF.

[Binoculars]

"......and while AOPA is the PPLs union, it will represent PPLs against the likes of the ATC Union."

Oh dear oh dear, what a sad state of affairs when ATC is seen as the enemy of GA. I know there have always been conspiracy theorists like this around, I just find it sad that the occupation to which I have given my best shot is so ideologically misrepresented.

I once spent a few months in Longreach Flight Service. One of the local pilots refused to talk to us unless he was legally forced to, because he believed that every time he clicked his PTT another movement was counted by Big Brother to justify their theft of his hard-earned money.

It appears Garrylous feels the same way. Perhaps if he spent some time talking to ATS officers he may find they have two arms and two legs and families just like he does, and they go to work hoping to achieve the optimum balance between safety and expedition which will allow them to go home with a sense of job satisfaction. They attempt to do this despite the interference of well-meaning amateurs who don't have a clue, and they resign themselves to the abuse of all those who believe the only subject worth discussing is their $6 landing fee.

Maybe he's right, maybe it is the "ATC Union" which is the public enemy. Maybe, on the other hand, he needs to revisit his conspiracy theories.

[Disco Stu]

I suspect Garrylous to be as someone once described him as a "B25"

So according to him, I can be a aircraft OWNER member, I can be a PPL member, but not a CPL member. Now if I let my class 1 medical lapse, where does that leave me?

And people wonder why AOPA is in a bit of a mess.

Back to agoof or whatever please Garrylous, for the benefit of everybody.

Disco Stu

[bonez]

having watched this thread develop, one can only get the impression that AOPA is close to sinking under the waves - the good intentions of a few are not enough to overcome the damage caused

there is nobody left over or in the lineup that in my opinion has to date shown the ability to bring the association back to life

not even the new chairman can get the forum back up or the financial statement on the web page -what hope is there

no matter how good the new board might be - the only solution to solve the existing problems is that they must all stand aside in favour of some new and respected faces

until that occurs the members will keep jumping ship

and this at a time when GA needs representation more than ever

not good

[brianh]

Bonez

There is some merit in that, however, GA and dealing with the Regulator is quite esoteric and some form of Board continuity is desirable.

As well, how to attract more candidates?

And the Forum and financials are not simple. First, Directors insurance is an obvious problem. Likewise the financials given the marchout of 4 key players at a critical time.

All

Interesting debate re AOPA and PPL/CPL. Looking beyond the crossfire, AOPA should support aircraft owners and pilots.

However, I hardly feel it needs to support Qantas etc as aircraft owners. Likewise, there is a balance of support for pilots. I have no objection to PPL and CPL but I think looking at his comments from a different perspective the point is well made that other levels may be well supported by their associations and AOPA should not spread into those domains as it is counter productive use of scant resource.

Can someone define a better definition of AOPA coverage to debate?

Woomera
On overnight reflection, the thread certainly had moved to your re-definition "Let's Bag Gaunty". I for one am going to leave him alone because once the crossfire starts he does attract flak so better to ignore him.

I guess the interesting thought at this critical AOPA election time is why only one director has attracted such angst. One would think that the anti-AOPA subversive rabble would be going for all Directors. I'll go away and ponder on that.



Perhaps it is because Gaunty is prepared to stand and fight for his beliefs?

You may surely ponder on that, because I won't. The subject of AOPA is not one which concerns me.

Woomera

[hermeias]

Longstab's Scandal

Longstab,

Don't know who your "legal/financial" expert is, I sure hope you don't pay him too much. Don't use him for your tax advice, that could get you into deep doodoo.

A little bird tells me that the problem with the accounts is that the now departed "Executive" sprung them on the rest of the Board at the last minute, and were not even able to tell the rest of the Board who actually prepared accounts that were seriously lacking, even without bringing up the question of how you treat multi year memberships. Unsurprisingly, the majority of the Board were somewhat unimpressed with the idea of having to sign their names to a few sheets of paper of doubtful accuracy, they didn't even have page numbers.

The same little bird tells me that the Treasurer for the whole period covered by the accounts in question, the recently departed short time President was the Treasurer, in that time there was no budget, and no financial reporting to the Board. Is it any wonder that the accounts from the same period, prepared by person or persons unknown, are also somewhat lacking. There certainly was a management problem, but that management has now resigned, and the remaining Board is faced with sorting out the mess.

So who do you really want to blame, or don't the facts come into this ??

[Blue Sky Baron]

Enough is Enough

I've read all the posts here and have come to the conclusion that AOPA has not really progressed from this time last year. All the same players bleating all the same tripe.

I rejoined at this time last year however am seriously reconsidering options this year.

I know who I believe, and I know who I don't, and I'll keep that to myself so that I don't attract too much personal flack.

A question, however.

As I don't have a copy of the AOPA Articles, (which I believe I should have been provided), could someone with the appropriate knowledge please advise the following:

Can the membership request the appointment of an administrator, and if so how many members does it take to do so, and how do we do it.

The time has come to remove ALL current board members, appoint an administrator who can settle things down, get the Association back on track and give us all twelve months to catch our collective breath, and hold elections this time next year.

I personally do not see any other option for a successful AOPA into the future, both immediate and long term.

Regards to all,

BSB

[brianh]

Possibly admirable in a purely business sense, but in that 12 months where the AOPA watchdog is away in the kennel, the predators may proliferate.

We would probably see an unprecedented issue of NPRM, and likewise of infringement notices.

ASA would go through a growth phase. I am an ASA member also but AOPA also has a place in the daily business of GA.

[Blue Sky Baron]

Brianh,

If you don't get the "business end" of AOPA working properly - THERE WILL BE NO AOPA.

Appointing an administrator does not preclude the appointment of qualified people (volunteers) to keep an eye on the regualtor.

BSB

[Garrylous]

$$$$

The problem with appointing an administrator is cost.

Reading previous posts here and on other forums I assume AOPA has about $40K in the bank. An administrator will cost at least half that if not the full amount!!!!

Now remember, the current survivors are there because they had the guts to stay and make it work, with no Director's insurance. Talking to one of them I am advised that AOPA has 6 months to do a turnaround, or it may well be insolvent. So an Administrator isn't needed, yet.

Besides, we have a newly elected board coming in, are we to appoint an Administrator anytime those who don't stand for election don't like who are elected. That might sound a bit harsh, but it is the way I read your post.

But from my reading of the articles, if you want to dismiss the current Board and appoint a new one you must hold an EGM. Your motion must be accepted by the majority of the board or have 100 member signiatures. You must then win the motion at the EGM. (You are too late for the AGM, and besides, I would suggest you attend and listen to what they have to say).

To sum up, I see one (or three) ex-Directors whinging. This is lead by the one most seem to hold responsible for the debacle, one who ran up an extraordinarilly high expences bill while the organisation was floudering financially and one who steadfastly ignores questions on what he actually achieved.

I would suggest you ingonre the quitters and support the stayers, unless you want AOPA to sink that is.

[ugly]

AOPA Forum is open for those who care...