Ukraine Crisis 2014
You're not wrong t43562.
I'm curious as to what your motiviation is to be posting all these links Ronald? You must know that (for the most part at least) folks here see through you and understand who/what you are.
I can post links too Russia?s top 80 lies about Ukraine - Los Angeles Homeland Security | Examiner.com and I draw your attention to the third and fourth paragraphs:
Elaborate troll farms employ hundreds of paid trolls, hired to spread deceptive imagery and deliberately false information. They are also tasked with attacking activists, flooding comment sections of news articles to promote Kremlin’s worldview and praise Russia’s political leadership. Russia’s mainstream media reporting often uses social media postings as its primary sources.
Since Russia’s information war against Ukraine is multifaceted, it’s important to recognize and address all of its manifestations, including not only the mainstream media, but also bloggers and trolls. Together, they work to infect public opinion, spreading hatred and war-mongering.
I'm curious as to what your motiviation is to be posting all these links Ronald? You must know that (for the most part at least) folks here see through you and understand who/what you are.
I can post links too Russia?s top 80 lies about Ukraine - Los Angeles Homeland Security | Examiner.com and I draw your attention to the third and fourth paragraphs:
Elaborate troll farms employ hundreds of paid trolls, hired to spread deceptive imagery and deliberately false information. They are also tasked with attacking activists, flooding comment sections of news articles to promote Kremlin’s worldview and praise Russia’s political leadership. Russia’s mainstream media reporting often uses social media postings as its primary sources.
Since Russia’s information war against Ukraine is multifaceted, it’s important to recognize and address all of its manifestations, including not only the mainstream media, but also bloggers and trolls. Together, they work to infect public opinion, spreading hatred and war-mongering.
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If you want to talk about a propaganda war Mel you only need look at the west, the western regime lies about Iraq, remember WMD? The threat Saddam was supposed to be, all lies. Then there was Libya, remember it was not about regime change! What happened?!
Basically western governments have lied through their teeth. You cannot believe or trust a word they have to say.
More and more of the civilian population in the west can see the truth. Evidence of this would be when the west planned to attack Syria but public opposition to such a war was so great the western politicians buckled under the pressure.
If the west had attacked Syria then likely ISIS would be even stronger and control even more territory than it does now.
More and more people see nations like Russia, China, India and Brazil offering a more logical and peaceful long term world view than Washington and silly people like Obama, Kerry or Clinton.
Basically western governments have lied through their teeth. You cannot believe or trust a word they have to say.
More and more of the civilian population in the west can see the truth. Evidence of this would be when the west planned to attack Syria but public opposition to such a war was so great the western politicians buckled under the pressure.
If the west had attacked Syria then likely ISIS would be even stronger and control even more territory than it does now.
More and more people see nations like Russia, China, India and Brazil offering a more logical and peaceful long term world view than Washington and silly people like Obama, Kerry or Clinton.
Yes, Western governments (and all governments) lie and manipulate the facts Ronald. The difference is, however, that we in the West generally don't slavishly follow what our leaders tell us (as seems to be the case with most in Russia with regard to Putin right now), but instead doubt and question what we are told almost as a matter of routine.
We in the West are able to balance what Putin is saying against what our own leaders are saying, and come to a reasoned understanding of the situation (as much as is possible) based on a balance of probabilities. In answer to your next point about us receiving our information through the prism of an unbalanced and biased media, I'd suggest that 'our' journalists are far more independent and objective than the Kremlin mouthpieces and cheerleaders we see on RT or CCTV or the like, who's sole raison d'etre appears to be 'The West says/believes this, so we say/believe the opposite'.
And seeing as you brought Syria up, understand that the sole reason Putin opposed plans to attack Assad (and Ghadaffi too) was all about national self-interest and protecting arms sales. Who knows what might have happened had the West intervened at the beginning of the civil war in Syria, when the nature of the conflict was still mainly secular and ISIS had not yet established itself on the ground to the extent that it now has. But that's a different argument from what's going on in Ukraine now.
We in the West are able to balance what Putin is saying against what our own leaders are saying, and come to a reasoned understanding of the situation (as much as is possible) based on a balance of probabilities. In answer to your next point about us receiving our information through the prism of an unbalanced and biased media, I'd suggest that 'our' journalists are far more independent and objective than the Kremlin mouthpieces and cheerleaders we see on RT or CCTV or the like, who's sole raison d'etre appears to be 'The West says/believes this, so we say/believe the opposite'.
And seeing as you brought Syria up, understand that the sole reason Putin opposed plans to attack Assad (and Ghadaffi too) was all about national self-interest and protecting arms sales. Who knows what might have happened had the West intervened at the beginning of the civil war in Syria, when the nature of the conflict was still mainly secular and ISIS had not yet established itself on the ground to the extent that it now has. But that's a different argument from what's going on in Ukraine now.
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No Mel, all these things are linked, the desire of the west to be in control no matter what the cost. One only has to look at the disaster that modern Libya has become or Iraq to clearly see we should not have got involved in either. With Syria the least bad option or dare I say good option would be Assad to take back control of the whole country and for the civil war to end. Syria is better off under Assad, Libya was better off under Gaddafi and Iraq under Saddam.
The western governments have got so much blood on their hands, enough is enough! Someone has to draw a line in the sand and say no more! Putin seems to be that person. Even my Russian friends who disliked Putin think he is doing the right thing with halting western expansionism into Ukraine. They are outraged by western actions. This is a country that is not in our sphere of influence, we have no business getting involved. But as usual our dear leaders have to be ruining yet another nation. If we had not got involved in Ukraine, if Yanukovych had been able to stop the coup against him and remain until the next election then none of this bloodshed would have taken place. Likely there would be no separatists at all and Crimea would be part of Ukraine still. But actions have consequences and the western backed/instigated coup has led to all of this. I would strongly suggest that continued aggression against Russia by the west may end up turning Russia into the enemy many seem to want them to be. They should be very careful what they wish for, many have underestimated Russia and lived to regret it.
The western governments have got so much blood on their hands, enough is enough! Someone has to draw a line in the sand and say no more! Putin seems to be that person. Even my Russian friends who disliked Putin think he is doing the right thing with halting western expansionism into Ukraine. They are outraged by western actions. This is a country that is not in our sphere of influence, we have no business getting involved. But as usual our dear leaders have to be ruining yet another nation. If we had not got involved in Ukraine, if Yanukovych had been able to stop the coup against him and remain until the next election then none of this bloodshed would have taken place. Likely there would be no separatists at all and Crimea would be part of Ukraine still. But actions have consequences and the western backed/instigated coup has led to all of this. I would strongly suggest that continued aggression against Russia by the west may end up turning Russia into the enemy many seem to want them to be. They should be very careful what they wish for, many have underestimated Russia and lived to regret it.
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Besides they are really acting to stop continued expansion into their sphere of influence
The fact that you so blatently push this old "sphere of influence" theme is disturbing. It is an outdated notion, and frankely an obscene one. The fact you can decide that particular soveriegn countries belong to large ones belongs in the twentieth century. The concept is just another theme of the socialogical need for males to be seen to dominate, manifesting it self on political and economic philosophies.
The difference between the west and the bad guys
. Our goverments will come up with a strategic direction, and yes cherry pick facts. But our media are free to denegrate and counter them with out going "missing". Also our government organizations leak like a sieve, which acts like a brake, so the truth comes out eventually.
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Isn't it strange that ever since the wall came down all those ex communist countries have had the ambition to model themselves on the West and not Russia..... That's as far from pushing our sphere of influence as you can get. The wall wasn't toppled from the west but from the other side.
Isn't it strange that ever since the wall came down all those ex communist countries have had the ambition to model themselves on the West and not Russia..... That's as far from pushing our sphere of influence as you can get. The wall wasn't toppled from the west but from the other side.
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So now they have sh!t loads of troops poised on the border, and now they will have a sh!t load of air power. The Ukraine is stuffed.
I hope they have the b@lls to go down fighting and give the f#$%ers a blood nose.
I hope they have the b@lls to go down fighting and give the f#$%ers a blood nose.
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A queue to join NATO is meaningless. It is supposed to be the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, that's it. Sadly its morphed into something else now. Most of the new members are simply excess baggage, they bring very limited military capabilities to NATO but basically give us more territory to defend. adding them to NATO has made war more likely not less. Those eastern nations should have been kept as a loosely aligned buffer zone between east and west.
rh200, to help you understand the concept of spheres of influence, your country Australia is in the American sphere of influence, your government are essentially puppets of Washington. The same with Canada and Britain. Most European nations would be the same. Its all about control, keeping the US Empire going whatever the cost, that's basically what the US military industrial complex is all about. None of this is done for our benefit, we the people mean nothing at all to the leadership.
Sadly the west are bad guys now, after things like Iraq, Libya, Ukraine
and pushing for war in Syria etc. The other side may not be saints but they are compared to Washington.
rh200, to help you understand the concept of spheres of influence, your country Australia is in the American sphere of influence, your government are essentially puppets of Washington. The same with Canada and Britain. Most European nations would be the same. Its all about control, keeping the US Empire going whatever the cost, that's basically what the US military industrial complex is all about. None of this is done for our benefit, we the people mean nothing at all to the leadership.
Sadly the west are bad guys now, after things like Iraq, Libya, Ukraine
and pushing for war in Syria etc. The other side may not be saints but they are compared to Washington.
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rh200, it might be better if the Russians send in a peace keeping force to protect the innocent civilian population of Eastern Ukraine. More lives will be saved.
Its sad to think that once all these people lived happily together in the Soviet Union and these men would have served side by side in the Soviet military, but now they have been freed, live in a ''better system'' so have been put in a situation by the west where they must kill each other.
Maybe those Soviet times don't seem so bad to many of the people now.
Its sad to think that once all these people lived happily together in the Soviet Union and these men would have served side by side in the Soviet military, but now they have been freed, live in a ''better system'' so have been put in a situation by the west where they must kill each other.
Maybe those Soviet times don't seem so bad to many of the people now.
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I see you neatly skirted round my points re the wall.
Pray tell me why should any Nation have to cower under the threat of any other, remember pre WW2 these were independent Countries that were invaded, they didn't say "hey I'm Polish, Czech or East German, please invade us and liberate us from our Governments and force us to live under a communist regime", they were systematically invaded against their will and taken over.
The wall wasn't erected to keep us out, it was erected to keep them in, the guard towers were not there to kill the populace on this side of the wall, but to prevent those on the other side crossing to the West, but it has taken many years and the collapse of the Soviet Union to put that spectre to bed.
The problem being with all these supporter's of Putin is their age, the majority never lived under the Communist ideal and as such have no idea as to what a Cold war USSR was like, those that did no doubt held the power and lived a life far better than the average man on the street, the nearest comparison has to be North Korea, living in a feudal dictatorship where food is scarce and you fear for that knock on the door. Even Russia has moved away from that and started to embrace the Western way of life, I bet you the majority of the Russian populace faced with returning to the depravation of the cold war would vote to stay as is.
Errrr you mean the terrorists and thugs, many actually from Russia that took control. Is it not for the Country to protect its own citizens, exactly what the Ukraine is doing, trying to liberate its civilian populace caught up in this, you can parade several armed men on TV, but the majority of the population no doubt does not want this and are at home cowering in fear.
If joining NATO made the Country and NATO weaker, why is Putin so against it........ simply because its a "my big brother scenario" you don't want to get in a fight where Nato is involved, he knows if the Country was part of NATO then NATO would have to commit to defending that Country, something he definately does not want happening anytime soon because his ambitions would be screwed..
I know where i would prefer to live, and by the amounts of immigrants and those joining the EU, so do a lot of the countries of the old Communist states. If Russia is such a eutopia, then why haven't you embraced the lifestyle and moved there, or is it you would miss your pasties?
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I see you neatly skirted round my points re the wall.
Those eastern nations should have been kept as a loosely aligned buffer zone between east and west.
The wall wasn't erected to keep us out, it was erected to keep them in, the guard towers were not there to kill the populace on this side of the wall, but to prevent those on the other side crossing to the West, but it has taken many years and the collapse of the Soviet Union to put that spectre to bed.
The problem being with all these supporter's of Putin is their age, the majority never lived under the Communist ideal and as such have no idea as to what a Cold war USSR was like, those that did no doubt held the power and lived a life far better than the average man on the street, the nearest comparison has to be North Korea, living in a feudal dictatorship where food is scarce and you fear for that knock on the door. Even Russia has moved away from that and started to embrace the Western way of life, I bet you the majority of the Russian populace faced with returning to the depravation of the cold war would vote to stay as is.
It might be better if the Russians send in a peace keeping force to protect the innocent civilian population of Eastern Ukraine. More lives will be saved.
NATO but basically give us more territory to defend. adding them to NATO has made war more likely not less.
I know where i would prefer to live, and by the amounts of immigrants and those joining the EU, so do a lot of the countries of the old Communist states. If Russia is such a eutopia, then why haven't you embraced the lifestyle and moved there, or is it you would miss your pasties?
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Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Aug 2014 at 12:17.
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I see you ignore my points about Iraq, Libya and Syria to make the western regimes sound like saints. Lets just airbrush their crimes out of existence as if they never happened!
No Mel, the people of eastern Ukraine were furious when the leader they elected (Yanukovych) was ousted in the western coup. Many of them decided if the western part of the country can oust the leader they supported then they can rise up and cease to be part of Ukraine, either being a new independent nation or joining Russia. Russia should do more to help save the people of eastern Ukraine from Kiev. Kiev has now killed huge numbers of civilians. Kiev and their so called military are very much in the wrong here. Washington, London, Paris and the EU are in the wrong, NATO is in the wrong. If it were not for the western governments we might actually be able to have peace in this world.
I am not so sure NATO would go to war to protect any former eastern block nation, they might simply run. Going by the wests recent track record and distinct lack of success in the wars its engaged in going to war with Russia might be a very bad idea.
At least during the USSR the people of Ukraine lived in peace. But with the wests desire to control Ukraine they have caused all of this bloodshed.
Same with Yugoslavia, if only that had held together.
Do you guys get your scripts from the White House, Downing Street or Brussels?
No Mel, the people of eastern Ukraine were furious when the leader they elected (Yanukovych) was ousted in the western coup. Many of them decided if the western part of the country can oust the leader they supported then they can rise up and cease to be part of Ukraine, either being a new independent nation or joining Russia. Russia should do more to help save the people of eastern Ukraine from Kiev. Kiev has now killed huge numbers of civilians. Kiev and their so called military are very much in the wrong here. Washington, London, Paris and the EU are in the wrong, NATO is in the wrong. If it were not for the western governments we might actually be able to have peace in this world.
I am not so sure NATO would go to war to protect any former eastern block nation, they might simply run. Going by the wests recent track record and distinct lack of success in the wars its engaged in going to war with Russia might be a very bad idea.
At least during the USSR the people of Ukraine lived in peace. But with the wests desire to control Ukraine they have caused all of this bloodshed.
Same with Yugoslavia, if only that had held together.
Do you guys get your scripts from the White House, Downing Street or Brussels?
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At least during the USSR the people of Ukraine lived in peace
Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust - Eric Margolis
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I should also say that Russian forces operating in what is now Eastern Ukraine is not really an invasion, as this area used to be part of Russia. Novorossiya should likely be part of Russia again. It would simply be a case of normalising borders in a logical way thus bringing the Russian speaking people back into Russia. They certainly did the right thing with Crimea.