Ukraine Crisis 2014
I'm not going to argue with you about Iraq (few in the West would, because we don't robotically believe what our leaders tell us), but what was the crime in Libya?
The West intervened against Ghadaffi to prevent a bloodbath on Benghazi. Ghadaffi's tanks were on the doorstep of that city, and he had publicly vowed to 'exterminate the rats' that lived there. IMHO, it would have been a crime not to have intervened.
As for Syria, I don't know where you're getting your information from (scrub that, RT obviously) but you'll do well to remember that the West has not intervened there, so again - where is the crime of which you speak?
If you want to talk about criminal actions, let's discuss Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya by all means.
Yanukovych was toppled in a popular uprising, not in a coup (the armed forces played no part). It's curious how you promote the rights of those in Eastern Ukraine to separate and join Russia, when to call for the same thing in Russia is now punishable by 5 years imprisonment (a law that Putin introduced as he was annexing Crimea!!).
And as for 'buffer states' along the border with Russia, aside from the obvious that this presupposes that nations do not have the right to choose their own alliances, NATO has always bordered up against the Soviet Union/Russia (Turkey anyone?) so why the big issue with it now?
Apart from all that, I really do admire your Orwellian double-speak - "But with the Wests desire to control Ukraine..." Pay attention Ronald, there are no Western troops in Ukraine, there are no Western tanks in Ukraine, there are no Western missile systems in Ukraine, the West is not shelling Ukraine, the West is not annexing parts of Ukraine...
As for, "It would simply be a case of normalising borders in a logical way thus bringing the Russian speaking people back into Russia," that sounds very much like an argument that was put forward in the 1930s about German speakers, no?
I could go on, but you tire me.
The West intervened against Ghadaffi to prevent a bloodbath on Benghazi. Ghadaffi's tanks were on the doorstep of that city, and he had publicly vowed to 'exterminate the rats' that lived there. IMHO, it would have been a crime not to have intervened.
As for Syria, I don't know where you're getting your information from (scrub that, RT obviously) but you'll do well to remember that the West has not intervened there, so again - where is the crime of which you speak?
If you want to talk about criminal actions, let's discuss Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya by all means.
Yanukovych was toppled in a popular uprising, not in a coup (the armed forces played no part). It's curious how you promote the rights of those in Eastern Ukraine to separate and join Russia, when to call for the same thing in Russia is now punishable by 5 years imprisonment (a law that Putin introduced as he was annexing Crimea!!).
And as for 'buffer states' along the border with Russia, aside from the obvious that this presupposes that nations do not have the right to choose their own alliances, NATO has always bordered up against the Soviet Union/Russia (Turkey anyone?) so why the big issue with it now?
Apart from all that, I really do admire your Orwellian double-speak - "But with the Wests desire to control Ukraine..." Pay attention Ronald, there are no Western troops in Ukraine, there are no Western tanks in Ukraine, there are no Western missile systems in Ukraine, the West is not shelling Ukraine, the West is not annexing parts of Ukraine...
As for, "It would simply be a case of normalising borders in a logical way thus bringing the Russian speaking people back into Russia," that sounds very much like an argument that was put forward in the 1930s about German speakers, no?
I could go on, but you tire me.
Last edited by melmothtw; 5th Aug 2014 at 12:50.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Perth Western Australia
Age: 57
Posts: 808
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My god, Ronald, what a pile of propaganda. Spheres of influence are what the old guard are trying to keep going, the rest of us are trying to move on.
You say all the additions makes NATO weaker as there is more territory to defend, from whom, Russia?
The only real reason it exists is to defend against bullies. As for the stuff about the yanks sphere of influence, what drugs are you on? The Europeans tell the yanks to get stuffed regularly, some sphere of influence. The poms and us have also on numerous occasions.
The fact is, Russia is a decrepit failed state that looks like failing quicker than the Yanks are at the moment. Hence Putin is resorting back to the tried and true method of bullying and nationalism to stir up support.
The Chinese have been progressing forward in leaps and bounds, Russia could to if they just tried evolving.
You say all the additions makes NATO weaker as there is more territory to defend, from whom, Russia?
The only real reason it exists is to defend against bullies. As for the stuff about the yanks sphere of influence, what drugs are you on? The Europeans tell the yanks to get stuffed regularly, some sphere of influence. The poms and us have also on numerous occasions.
The fact is, Russia is a decrepit failed state that looks like failing quicker than the Yanks are at the moment. Hence Putin is resorting back to the tried and true method of bullying and nationalism to stir up support.
The Chinese have been progressing forward in leaps and bounds, Russia could to if they just tried evolving.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mel go and put the television on, see what is going in on Libya now, that's thanks to us. No the crime was us attacking Libya, Gaddafi was at war with terrorists, many of them now control huge chunks of the country!
It would have been far better for the cause of peace and stability for us to not get involved or even ensure Gaddafi remained in power as a valued fighter in the war against terrorism. Right now wherever the west goes you end up with groups like ISIS taking over. Its almost as if our leaders want it that way, spreading Al Qaeda and ISIS all over the region.
Some say the west caused the initial uprising in Libya and Syria, the same with Ukraine. Most likely after Russia managed to save Syria from western attack western leaders were enraged their bloodlust had not been satisfied so set their sights on Ukraine, to get Yanukovych to join them, when he refused he was removed, if he had tried to hang onto power by doing what Kiev is doing to put down the uprising in the east there would have been fake uproar from the western regimes. Now though their puppets are doing the killing its all fine as far as western leaders are concerned. Remember how it works, if the killing is done by Gaddafi, Assad, Saddam, Yanukovych then = bad, if done by Israel or the new regime in Kiev then = good! Those double standards sicken me.
Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya were mainly internal issues. Crimea was Russian and is Russian again, I pointed it out to you a few posts back. Georgia was flirting with NATO which is a no, no. Chechnya is a war on terror much like the west being in Afghanistan.
There are currently NATO forces in other eastern block nations, as far as Russia is concerned they will be in Ukraine next! They won't tolerate that. The sooner NATO is dissolved the better. It was supposed to stop war but actually makes war more likely.
It would have been far better for the cause of peace and stability for us to not get involved or even ensure Gaddafi remained in power as a valued fighter in the war against terrorism. Right now wherever the west goes you end up with groups like ISIS taking over. Its almost as if our leaders want it that way, spreading Al Qaeda and ISIS all over the region.
Some say the west caused the initial uprising in Libya and Syria, the same with Ukraine. Most likely after Russia managed to save Syria from western attack western leaders were enraged their bloodlust had not been satisfied so set their sights on Ukraine, to get Yanukovych to join them, when he refused he was removed, if he had tried to hang onto power by doing what Kiev is doing to put down the uprising in the east there would have been fake uproar from the western regimes. Now though their puppets are doing the killing its all fine as far as western leaders are concerned. Remember how it works, if the killing is done by Gaddafi, Assad, Saddam, Yanukovych then = bad, if done by Israel or the new regime in Kiev then = good! Those double standards sicken me.
Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya were mainly internal issues. Crimea was Russian and is Russian again, I pointed it out to you a few posts back. Georgia was flirting with NATO which is a no, no. Chechnya is a war on terror much like the west being in Afghanistan.
There are currently NATO forces in other eastern block nations, as far as Russia is concerned they will be in Ukraine next! They won't tolerate that. The sooner NATO is dissolved the better. It was supposed to stop war but actually makes war more likely.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Our leaders are Washington's puppets rh200, you know it as well as I do. Even Merkel despite how the US treats her dare not cross them, she obeys her masters at the end of the day offering only mock outrage against US actions in Germany. If she really wanted to she could break away from NATO and order the removal of all US forces from Germany. But she dare not cross her masters.
I agree with one thing you say rh200. About China. I hope they become the dominant power on Earth, they might be the ones who can finally change Washington's warmongering ways. Also with Russia and China very close it sounds like an incredibly powerful alliance. With India and Brazil along with others moving in that direction to it shows who the future belongs to. Your country and mine should join that alliance, break away from Washington who are the real bullies. Then at last we can have peace.
I mostly stick up for Russia, but I think it will be China and India who end up leading the world, the fear that must create in Washington gives me great joy! Its likely why Moscow is very close to both China and India. Just hope Washington don't end up starting World War 3 with China and India in a desperate attempt to remain number one.
I agree with one thing you say rh200. About China. I hope they become the dominant power on Earth, they might be the ones who can finally change Washington's warmongering ways. Also with Russia and China very close it sounds like an incredibly powerful alliance. With India and Brazil along with others moving in that direction to it shows who the future belongs to. Your country and mine should join that alliance, break away from Washington who are the real bullies. Then at last we can have peace.
I mostly stick up for Russia, but I think it will be China and India who end up leading the world, the fear that must create in Washington gives me great joy! Its likely why Moscow is very close to both China and India. Just hope Washington don't end up starting World War 3 with China and India in a desperate attempt to remain number one.
that's thanks to us
Gaddafi was at war with terrorists
I can't argue with you that the whole situation there is a clusterf#ck right now, but you have to fight what's infront of you, and at the time that NATO went to war (under a UN mandate mind), it was to prevent a massacre of civilians.
Some say the west caused the initial uprising in Libya and Syria, the same with Ukraine.
Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya were mainly internal issues. Crimea was Russian and is Russian again, I pointed it out to you a few posts back. Georgia was flirting with NATO which is a no, no. Chechnya is a war on terror much like the west being in Afghanistan.
There are currently NATO forces in other eastern block nations...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RT is the best news media out there, also media from China, Iran and Syria can be considered better than the western propaganda machine of warmongering and lies. You would do well to inform yourself better by watching some of them Mel. Instead you rely on a kind of Wikipedia!!!!!!!!
Here is Roland Dumas a former French Foreign Minister in the video actually saying it.
Ex-French foreign minister Roland Dumas claims British preparation of Syrian war in Syria
PressTV - UK planned war on Syria before unrest began: French ex-foreign minister
Roland Dumas, Former French Foreign Minister: ?England prepared, conceived, organized the invasion of the ?rebels? in Syria over 2 years ago? ~~~ Roland Dumas, ancien ministre français des Affaires étrangères: «L?Angleterre a préparé, conçu, organisé
Here is Roland Dumas a former French Foreign Minister in the video actually saying it.
Ex-French foreign minister Roland Dumas claims British preparation of Syrian war in Syria
PressTV - UK planned war on Syria before unrest began: French ex-foreign minister
Roland Dumas, Former French Foreign Minister: ?England prepared, conceived, organized the invasion of the ?rebels? in Syria over 2 years ago? ~~~ Roland Dumas, ancien ministre français des Affaires étrangères: «L?Angleterre a préparé, conçu, organisé
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Instead you rely on a kind of Wikipedia!!!!!!!!
I don't speak French, but going by the subtitles he says; "..by asking [in my opinion], that they were preparing something in Syria." Well, so long as it's his opinion I guess that proves it.
And he talks about 'England preparing the invasion of the rebels in Syria'. So, if there already were Syrian rebels then that would be after the uprising began then, and not before like you previously said.
I don't think anyone's ever denied that the West had contingency plans for helping the rebels, but that's very different from starting the rebellion as you suggested. And how does any of this relate to Ukraine?
Press TV?! And don't even get me started on the Daily Mail!
You're too funny Ronald.
Last edited by melmothtw; 5th Aug 2014 at 14:47.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,061
Received 2,934 Likes
on
1,250 Posts
RT is the best news media out there, also media from China, Iran and Syria can be considered better than the western propaganda machine of warmongering and lies.
Ronald, the only thing that would worry me more about you is if I thought you actually believe the rubbish you spout.
Here's a little thing to help you. Your posts might be slightly more credible if you could write in English. Happy to help with your writing. A couple of thoughts for now:
Here's a little thing to help you. Your posts might be slightly more credible if you could write in English. Happy to help with your writing. A couple of thoughts for now:
This is an apostrophe '
This is a comma ,
Citing the media does not prove much. Maybe the events that happened recently, but not much else.
If you post on a western Mil Av web site, don't expect us to be taken in by your very obvious agenda.
Hope that helps.This is a comma ,
Citing the media does not prove much. Maybe the events that happened recently, but not much else.
If you post on a western Mil Av web site, don't expect us to be taken in by your very obvious agenda.
Courtney, I have noticed that RR mostly operates in "Transmit" mode. I am not sure that there is a "Receive" channel in his R/T kit. 
Now, if only we could induce a "Standby" mode.
Now, if only we could induce a "Standby" mode.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There may of course be another, much more sinister, reason of the apparent catching of breath by RR....
Ukraine crisis: Russia could be poised to invade, NATO says - World - CBC News
"Russia has massed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's border and could use the pretext of a humanitarian mission to invade, NATO said on Wednesday, its starkest warning yet that Moscow could soon mount a ground assault against its neighbour.
With fighting escalating and rebels losing ground in the weeks since a Malaysian airliner was shot down over separatist-held territory, Russia has announced military exercises this week in the border region.
"We're not going to guess what's on Russia's mind, but we can see what Russia is doing on the ground — and that is of great concern. Russia has amassed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's eastern border," NATO spokeswoman Oana Lungescu said in an emailed statement."
Ukraine crisis: Russia could be poised to invade, NATO says - World - CBC News
"Russia has massed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's border and could use the pretext of a humanitarian mission to invade, NATO said on Wednesday, its starkest warning yet that Moscow could soon mount a ground assault against its neighbour.
With fighting escalating and rebels losing ground in the weeks since a Malaysian airliner was shot down over separatist-held territory, Russia has announced military exercises this week in the border region.
"We're not going to guess what's on Russia's mind, but we can see what Russia is doing on the ground — and that is of great concern. Russia has amassed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's eastern border," NATO spokeswoman Oana Lungescu said in an emailed statement."
Vladimir Putin@DarthPutinKGB · Aug 4 A few hundred NATO soldiers exercising in Baltics is a dangerous fascist provocation. 15,000 Russian troops on #Ukraine's border is cool.
- ReplyReplied to 0 times
- RetweetRetweetedRetweeted 110 times110
- FavouriteFavouritedFavourited 46 times46
- More