Ukraine Crisis 2014
..think some British people have more sympathy for Putin and Russia than the Western Ukrainians, many of whose thugs seem to Nazi sympathisers. But its a dogs breakfast.
Pretty impressive how fast Russia moved when it wanted to.....
Pretty impressive how fast Russia moved when it wanted to.....
Ukranian nationalists slaughted up to 300,000 Poles in what was Eastern Poland now Western Ukraine, seeing some of the Nationalist and Anti Semitic crap that is popping up in Kiev shows it never really went that far away.
Many Finns fought for the Nazis as well, but as in Ukraine's case it was more a case of 'my enemy's enemy....'.
Since when did wanting closer ties with Europe make the Ukrainians anti-Semite? If there have been such elements among the tens of thousands who occupied Independence Square, is it right to tar the entire nation with that brush, and does it legitimise a Russian invasion of a sovereign nation?
I think Mil-26Man had it about right, but with no sense of irony the mods have banned him in true Soviet style for speaking his mind.
Since when did wanting closer ties with Europe make the Ukrainians anti-Semite? If there have been such elements among the tens of thousands who occupied Independence Square, is it right to tar the entire nation with that brush, and does it legitimise a Russian invasion of a sovereign nation?
I think Mil-26Man had it about right, but with no sense of irony the mods have banned him in true Soviet style for speaking his mind.
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An international treaty was signed on February, 5, 1994, in Budapest between Ukraine, USA, Russia, and the United Kingdom concerning the nuclear disarmament of Ukraine and included security assurances of her independence.
According to the treaty Ukraine has abandoned her nuclear arsenal to Russia, while Russia, USA, and the UK have promised
(1) to respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within her borders;
(2) to protect Ukraine from outer aggression and not to conduct aggression toward Ukraine;
(3) not to put economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence her politics;
(4) not to use nuclear arms against Ukraine."
Unlike in the case of Georgia, in Ukraine the signatories are obliged by the agreement to protect it. It is ironic that it might have to be done against one of the signatories.
The question is: Will the USA and UK step up to their promises?
According to the treaty Ukraine has abandoned her nuclear arsenal to Russia, while Russia, USA, and the UK have promised
(1) to respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within her borders;
(2) to protect Ukraine from outer aggression and not to conduct aggression toward Ukraine;
(3) not to put economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence her politics;
(4) not to use nuclear arms against Ukraine."
Unlike in the case of Georgia, in Ukraine the signatories are obliged by the agreement to protect it. It is ironic that it might have to be done against one of the signatories.
The question is: Will the USA and UK step up to their promises?
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It'll be alright, Hague is going to Kiev tomorrow, do you think he knows it's not a breaded Chicken product?
I will bet a fiver it's to back peddle on the agreement, whilst trying to bull**** the UK populace that it is anything else..
I will bet a fiver it's to back peddle on the agreement, whilst trying to bull**** the UK populace that it is anything else..
The question is: Will the USA and UK step up to their promises?
When it comes to keeping "Promises".....Welfare Man doesn't keep his own Promises....much less someone else's!
Just what might the US do militarily? Short Answer....Nothing that matters!
What might we do Diplomatically......with Lurch as SecState....expect a lot of hot air, bluster, and ultimately....embarrassment at the hands of Putin!
Just what does the UK have to gain by living up to the Treaty? Short Answer....nothing!
Not like George Bush Snr eh SASLess, who told the Marsh Arabs to rise up against Saddam and then sent in US forces to help them when they did...oh,wait...
And what we have to gain by honouring our treaties is that is shows they are worth the paper they're printed on. Might come in useful when we need to next sign a treaty that is to our benefit.
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The pragmatic stance would be to "agree" to russia retaining it's black sea access and military installations because they are not going to let those go without a fight, period.
As for NATO? well it's certainly not the force it was once that's for sure.
Personally from a nationalistic stance, until Typhoon gets Meteor they are outclassed by the Russian Air Force, best we keep well clear until then. As for the USAF the same, once their f22 are shot out then they will die, period, then what?
No, the way forwards would be to "accept" that Russian has/needs the black sea access. Work it from there.
But I doubt that the current generation of western politicians have the ability to think BIG, only soundbites count these days....
As for NATO? well it's certainly not the force it was once that's for sure.
Personally from a nationalistic stance, until Typhoon gets Meteor they are outclassed by the Russian Air Force, best we keep well clear until then. As for the USAF the same, once their f22 are shot out then they will die, period, then what?
No, the way forwards would be to "accept" that Russian has/needs the black sea access. Work it from there.
But I doubt that the current generation of western politicians have the ability to think BIG, only soundbites count these days....
No one has suggested that Russia shouldn't retain it's Black Sea access or its bases in Crimea, not even the Ukrainians. This is just an opportunistic land grab.
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I suspect the West is currently urgently researching reverse-gear diplomatic technology for if our bluff gets called after the requisite noises of disapproval and threats of consequences have been made.
Obama seems to be good at 'drawing lines'. Putin has the ability to produce a mahoosive bottle of Tippex though...
Obama seems to be good at 'drawing lines'. Putin has the ability to produce a mahoosive bottle of Tippex though...
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Ukraine places forces on combat alert and threatens war as UN security council meets ? live updates | World news | theguardian.com
Latvia+Lithuania have invoked NATO art. 4 in response to #crimea NATO now obliged to hold emerg council meeting. Only 4th time in history
— James Mates (@jamesmatesitv) March 1, 2014
— James Mates (@jamesmatesitv) March 1, 2014
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'Survive to fight' manual being retrieved from loft imminently...
I think this has potential to actually do us a bit of good actually - put our politicians back in their box for a bit and concentrate more on sorting our own **** out - as opposed to grand-standing on the world stage.
Either that or mutually assured destruction..
I think this has potential to actually do us a bit of good actually - put our politicians back in their box for a bit and concentrate more on sorting our own **** out - as opposed to grand-standing on the world stage.
Either that or mutually assured destruction..
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Better get these shipped earliest then if Latvia is calling on NATO
Latvian army to purchase approximately 120 armored vehicles worth EUR 70 mln :: The Baltic Course | Baltic States news & analytics
Latvian army to purchase approximately 120 armored vehicles worth EUR 70 mln :: The Baltic Course | Baltic States news & analytics
Melm....you are well known for your inability to rationally discuss issues...and that if you moved any further left you would meet yourself coming the other direction.
Welfare Man does not have the Balls to stand up for "freedom" movements unless they are Islamists.....just look back at his track record. Care to give us an example of where he did....say Iran for a start?
What Bush did has nothing to do with today....and Welfare Man.
Treaties are not worth the paper they are written on and everyone knows that.
The only thing that really matters is the willingness of the participants to hold to the agreement and not the paper. Did not you learn that lesson back in the late 30's and that infamous "Peace in Our Time" horse ****?
Unless I am mistaken....the very folks that are causing the problem are already signed up for the Treaty they themselves are breaking....or have I read that wrong here somewhere?
Stick to relevant issues and leave off your Leftie crap please.
Welfare Man does not have the Balls to stand up for "freedom" movements unless they are Islamists.....just look back at his track record. Care to give us an example of where he did....say Iran for a start?
What Bush did has nothing to do with today....and Welfare Man.
Treaties are not worth the paper they are written on and everyone knows that.
The only thing that really matters is the willingness of the participants to hold to the agreement and not the paper. Did not you learn that lesson back in the late 30's and that infamous "Peace in Our Time" horse ****?
Unless I am mistaken....the very folks that are causing the problem are already signed up for the Treaty they themselves are breaking....or have I read that wrong here somewhere?
Stick to relevant issues and leave off your Leftie crap please.
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sasless... I consider our (uk & us) leaders left wing. I dont either consider it traitorous to wish we had leaders with real balls, or at least a real grounding in the real, rough world. whats your opinion on all this and the west?
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Leaving the 'personal' insults aside SASLess (I'm not sure it is possible to be personal on an anonymous internet chat forum), I do have to agree with you that President Obama (as an American, you should really show more respect for that office, notwithstanding your almost rabid levels of antipathy towards its incumbent) has been somewhat disappointing in his lack of leadership on Ukraine, but my point about Bush Snr was that a failure in moral leadership isn't the reserve of Democrat presidents.
As to 'peace in our time', some might say we went some way to exercising that particular stain on our national conscience by honouring our treaty obligations with Poland and declaring war on Germany on their behalf. Perhaps that wasn't in our self interest SASLess, but the world is a better place that we did. Maybe there's a lesson there.
As to 'peace in our time', some might say we went some way to exercising that particular stain on our national conscience by honouring our treaty obligations with Poland and declaring war on Germany on their behalf. Perhaps that wasn't in our self interest SASLess, but the world is a better place that we did. Maybe there's a lesson there.
(as an American, you should really show more respect for that office, notwithstanding your almost rabid levels of antipathy towards its incumbent)
I believe he has always respected the Office of his CiC notwithstanding the various idiots the electorate picked up at the dime store and elected.
Frankly we have seen the effects of psychophantic people following messianic leaders.......
I am free to respect the Office....but not the Man....as they are separable. If you recall....we have Impeached previous Presidents for misconduct which I suppose to be the ultimate form of disrespect and quite more formal a method but in the end shows the Man to be unworthy of the Office. Ours is supposed to be a Nation of Laws....and not Men, something perhaps you do not understand. We very easily discern actions that are unbecoming a President and will hold the Individual in the Office accountable for their actions.
As Welfare Man ignores our Law when it suits him.....he places himself above the Law by his actions and attitude and that begets the reaction from Citizens that you see reflected in my posts and others.
We are free to speak our minds about our political leaders due to a thing called the First Amendment.....and no where in any Register is there a law that demands us to show "respect" to the President other than out of plain common courtesy. Recall our Presidents are not granted Title....and remain mere "Mister" except when being addressed directly and then the use of "Mr. President" actually relates to the Office he holds.
In some cases they are referred to as "The Defendant" as in Bill Clintons Perjury Proceeding as you may recall.
Ex-Mate....asking me to provide a reliable estimate of the range of actions the UK and US Governments might take over the Ukraine Situation is fairly hopeless.
I view this just as i do the Syria situation.....as far as i can discern....there is scant National Security Interests for us here in the United States. We do not have the Economic or Military Assets to devote to another War of any kind....and that immediately prevents us from taking a real hard nosed stand.
We will make all sorts of noises....rattle our one remaining Sword....propose UN Sanctions knowing the Russians will Veto anything significant and thus appear to have tried to do the right thing but in reality do nothing.
The Russians are there and we are not. That pretty well sums it up.
Putin will get whatever resolution he wants and as our Welfare Man has acted like he was still in Chicago and made US National Interest differences with Russia into a personal thing with Putin (and got slapped down several times in the process) then Putin will milk the Crisis for everything it is worth.....knowing Welfare Man has lost all of his political capital over Obamacare and so many other Scandals on the US domestic front.
Putin and Russia are in the Driver's Seat....have hold of the Steering Wheel and the Throttle.....and the rest of the World are just riding along in the back of the Bus....some are going to pay for the ride and some are going to ride for free.
Putin will decide where everyone gets off and where the Bus winds up.
One Man's Opinion of course....based upon pure speculation.
As Welfare Man ignores our Law when it suits him.....he places himself above the Law by his actions and attitude and that begets the reaction from Citizens that you see reflected in my posts and others.
We are free to speak our minds about our political leaders due to a thing called the First Amendment.....and no where in any Register is there a law that demands us to show "respect" to the President other than out of plain common courtesy. Recall our Presidents are not granted Title....and remain mere "Mister" except when being addressed directly and then the use of "Mr. President" actually relates to the Office he holds.
In some cases they are referred to as "The Defendant" as in Bill Clintons Perjury Proceeding as you may recall.
Ex-Mate....asking me to provide a reliable estimate of the range of actions the UK and US Governments might take over the Ukraine Situation is fairly hopeless.
I view this just as i do the Syria situation.....as far as i can discern....there is scant National Security Interests for us here in the United States. We do not have the Economic or Military Assets to devote to another War of any kind....and that immediately prevents us from taking a real hard nosed stand.
We will make all sorts of noises....rattle our one remaining Sword....propose UN Sanctions knowing the Russians will Veto anything significant and thus appear to have tried to do the right thing but in reality do nothing.
The Russians are there and we are not. That pretty well sums it up.
Putin will get whatever resolution he wants and as our Welfare Man has acted like he was still in Chicago and made US National Interest differences with Russia into a personal thing with Putin (and got slapped down several times in the process) then Putin will milk the Crisis for everything it is worth.....knowing Welfare Man has lost all of his political capital over Obamacare and so many other Scandals on the US domestic front.
Putin and Russia are in the Driver's Seat....have hold of the Steering Wheel and the Throttle.....and the rest of the World are just riding along in the back of the Bus....some are going to pay for the ride and some are going to ride for free.
Putin will decide where everyone gets off and where the Bus winds up.
One Man's Opinion of course....based upon pure speculation.
A US president who ignores the law when he wants to? We can talk about Nixon and Watergate, or Reagan and Iran-Contra if you like (and don't even get me started on George W!), but probably not suited to this thread at this time.
By the way, loved your comment earlier about 'treaties not being worth the paper they're written on and everyone knows it'. That's pretty much how your nation came to be founded - on the back of broken treaties? No?
Of course, I'm just being facetious. Am a huge fan of America, as I've said many times here and elsewhere.
By the way, loved your comment earlier about 'treaties not being worth the paper they're written on and everyone knows it'. That's pretty much how your nation came to be founded - on the back of broken treaties? No?
Of course, I'm just being facetious. Am a huge fan of America, as I've said many times here and elsewhere.
Last edited by melmothtw; 1st Mar 2014 at 21:14.
By the way, loved your comment earlier about 'treaties not being worth the paper they're written on and everyone knows it'. That's pretty much how your nation came to be founded - on the back of broken treaties? No?
It was a desire to be in contol of their own destiny without being a cash cow where the money was taken but had no say in what happened to it.
You know Self Determination.