Ukraine Crisis 2014
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Russia's Black Sea fleet has access to the Med only by the gift of Turkey. Should Russia seize part of a sovereign state, the remainder of that state might appeal to them to keep it in its little bathtub, thus perhaps defeating the point.
Russia has made it quite clear that it considers the former Soviet Union to
be a space where it sees itself having wide latitude for maneuver.
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We? France wasn't too happy to let Algeria go. Britain had big issues in Kenya.
Yet self-determination is a long-established rule. Russia needs to cope with it. Given the number of Ukrainian dead in now-fading memory, some enmity might be expected.
It doesn't seem unreasonable that a new Ukraine would allow majority Russian bits to realign themselves, under the same idea.
Yet self-determination is a long-established rule. Russia needs to cope with it. Given the number of Ukrainian dead in now-fading memory, some enmity might be expected.
It doesn't seem unreasonable that a new Ukraine would allow majority Russian bits to realign themselves, under the same idea.
Have the Russians been bleating about Crimea (and vice versa) for some time and we've just not been told about it by our media, or is this a new thing which has come to the fore ever since the guys in Kiev chased out Yanukovych? A bit of (recent) historical context would be useful (I did hear it used to be part of Byzantia, but that probably isn't too relevant now).
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There's been all the shenanigans about the Orange revolution etc, so Ukraine hasn't been a picture of stability since independence.
Russian imperial power through Odessa and Crimea isn't a novelty either.
There were certain issues in the 1930s and 40s too.
Russian imperial power through Odessa and Crimea isn't a novelty either.
There were certain issues in the 1930s and 40s too.
Russia's Black Sea fleet has access to the Med only by the gift of Turkey. Should Russia seize part of a sovereign state, the remainder of that state might appeal to them to keep it in its little bathtub, thus perhaps defeating the point.
People on this thread may harp on about Europe and how toothless it is in the face of all this, but Europe does not have an armed force as such so is powerless to do anything. In addition to this, having been through two world wars, at the forefront of the cold war and its nations been involved in just about any conflict since WW2, Europe has had enough of war.
Again, for all those Euro haters, there is a reason why many countries in Eastern Europe want to join the EU.
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Given they have economies comparably sized to within a factor of 2, Turkey can probably hold its own against Mr Putin, who presumably doesn't really want a fuss in the middle of a city of fourteen million people.
There's also a difference between admitting trading ships and naval ships.
There's also a difference between admitting trading ships and naval ships.
Viz a viz the Bosporus, the Montreaux Treaty (and attendant Commission) regulates the passage of Naval vessels in and out of the Black Sea, with strict criteria on Tonnage, weapons calibres etc. Turkey - as do the other signatories - take it rather seriously....
Can I ask an aviation question (we are in Military Aircew after all)?
There was a clip of a large Russian "fast jet" tanking from a pretty impressive tanker on the 6 o'clock BBC news tonight when they were talking about the Russian military build-up. Anyone see it and can identify the types? I liked the snazzy retractable refuelling probe on the port side of the cockpit.
Last type I studied Russian (Soviet) military aircraft it was all Mig 25s, Bears and Badgers, so I'm a bit out of date!
There was a clip of a large Russian "fast jet" tanking from a pretty impressive tanker on the 6 o'clock BBC news tonight when they were talking about the Russian military build-up. Anyone see it and can identify the types? I liked the snazzy retractable refuelling probe on the port side of the cockpit.
Last type I studied Russian (Soviet) military aircraft it was all Mig 25s, Bears and Badgers, so I'm a bit out of date!
Europe does not have an armed force as such so is powerless to do anything.
Again, for all those Euro haters, there is a reason why many countries in Eastern Europe want to join the EU.
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There was a clip of a large Russian "fast jet" tanking from a pretty impressive tanker on the 6 o'clock BBC news tonight when they were talking about the Russian military build-up. Anyone see it and can identify the types? I liked the snazzy retractable refuelling probe on the port side of the cockpit.
The cockpit canopy would suggest a Mig 29 or variant thereof. The plastic model I made many years ago did not have the refuelling probe though.
Polecat
The cockpit canopy would suggest a Mig 29 or variant thereof. The plastic model I made many years ago did not have the refuelling probe though.
Polecat
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Fair enough-its an aircrew forum.
Yep fair enough it is an aircrew forum and supposed to be about military aviation etc. I only started the thread because its not that unlikely that conflict could actually break out on the fringes of Europe and NATO, and is of course somehow capable of spreading like..er the olden days.
Article here by good old Con in the Torygraph. Apparently NATO ministers have backed Ukraine in a meeting this week.
Don't expect Nato to save Ukraine from the Russians ? Telegraph Blogs
Bit like the way chairmen and directors back football managers in tough periods, just before they sack them.
Fair play to Pruners for actually bothering to debating the crisis. Its dropped off the plot and pages of much of the UK mainstream media as a lead article, possibly because its seen as unlikely to drag us in? Or like me, they simply don't care what happens to them, either way. (Cruel, but true).
Article here by good old Con in the Torygraph. Apparently NATO ministers have backed Ukraine in a meeting this week.
Don't expect Nato to save Ukraine from the Russians ? Telegraph Blogs
Bit like the way chairmen and directors back football managers in tough periods, just before they sack them.
Fair play to Pruners for actually bothering to debating the crisis. Its dropped off the plot and pages of much of the UK mainstream media as a lead article, possibly because its seen as unlikely to drag us in? Or like me, they simply don't care what happens to them, either way. (Cruel, but true).
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Before dismissing Ivan as yesterday's bogey man, these chaps have been taking him seriously since that wall disappeared in Berlin; Conflict Studies Research Centre . I was on their publication distribution list for a long time and I eventually became irritated by the amount of effort they expended on yesterday's people. Maybe they did have a better appreciation of reality than me.
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The silence of Obama on this speaks volumes.
I see armed men in uniform have now seized an Airport after the key Government buildings in the Crimea...
Sounds like securing the necessary infrastructure, one wouldn't be surprised if it was a Russian led move to reinstall the recently departed President into parts of the Country that support him as a puppet of Moscow. though one would have thought the Ukrainian military would have more than enough capability to prevent any incursions into their airspace, just do they have the will?
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I see armed men in uniform have now seized an Airport after the key Government buildings in the Crimea...
Sounds like securing the necessary infrastructure, one wouldn't be surprised if it was a Russian led move to reinstall the recently departed President into parts of the Country that support him as a puppet of Moscow. though one would have thought the Ukrainian military would have more than enough capability to prevent any incursions into their airspace, just do they have the will?
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 28th Feb 2014 at 00:43.
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Originally Posted by dead_pan
Have the Russians been bleating about Crimea (and vice versa) for some time and we've just not been told about it by our media, or is this a new thing which has come to the fore ever since the guys in Kiev chased out Yanukovych? A bit of (recent) historical context would be useful (I did hear it used to be part of Byzantia, but that probably isn't too relevant now).
The industrialisation had a heavy cost for the peasantry, demographically a backbone of the Ukrainian nation. To satisfy the state's need for increased food supplies and to finance industrialisation, Stalin instituted a programme of collectivisation of agriculture as the state combined the peasants' lands and animals into collective farms and enforced the policies by the regular troops and secret police. Those who resisted were arrested and deported and the increased production quotas were placed on the peasantry. The collectivisation had a devastating effect on agricultural productivity. As the members of the collective farms were not allowed to receive any grain until sometimes unrealistic quotas were met, starvation in the Soviet Union became more common. In 1932–33, millions starved to death in a famine known as Holodomor or "Great Famine". Scholars are divided as to whether this famine fits the definition of genocide, but the Ukrainian parliament and other countries recognise it as such.
The famine claimed up to 10 million Ukrainian lives as peasants' food stocks were forcibly removed by the Soviet government by the NKVD secret police.
Following the Invasion of Poland in September 1939, German and Soviet troops divided the territory of Poland. Thus, Eastern Galicia and Volhynia with their Ukrainian population became reunited with the rest of Ukraine. The unification that Ukraine achieved for the first time in its history was a decisive event in the history of the nation.
In 1940, Romania ceded Bessarabia and northern Bukovina in response to Soviet demands. The Ukrainian SSR incorporated northern and southern districts of Bessarabia, northern Bukovina, and the Hertsa region.
Although the majority of Ukrainians fought alongside the Red Army and Soviet resistance, some elements of the Ukrainian nationalist underground created an anti-Soviet nationalist formation in Galicia, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (1942). At times it allied with the Nazi forces, it also carried out the massacres of ethnic Poles, and, after the war, continued to fight the USSR. Using guerrilla war tactics, the insurgents targeted for assassination and terror those who they perceived as representing, or cooperating at any level with, the Soviet state.
At the same time, the Ukrainian Liberation Army, another nationalist movement, fought alongside the Nazis.
In total, the number of ethnic Ukrainians who fought in the ranks of the Soviet Army is estimated from 4.5 million to 7 million. Pro-Soviet partisan guerrilla resistance in Ukraine is estimated to number at 47,800 from the start of occupation to 500,000 at its peak in 1944; with about 50% being ethnic Ukrainians. Generally, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army's figures are not very reliable, with figures ranging anywhere from 15,000 to as much as 100,000 fighters.
Post-war ethnic cleansing occurred in the newly expanded Soviet Union. As of 1 January 1953, Ukrainians were second only to Russians among adult "special deportees", comprising 20% of the total. In addition, over 450,000 ethnic Germans from Ukraine and more than 200,000 Crimean Tatars were victims of forced deportations.
Following the death of Stalin in 1953, Nikita Khrushchev became the new leader of the USSR. Having served as First Secretary of the Communist Party of Ukrainian SSR in 1938–49, Khrushchev was intimately familiar with the republic; after taking power union-wide, he began to emphasize the friendship between the Ukrainian and Russian nations. In 1954, the 300th anniversary of the Treaty of Pereyaslav was widely celebrated.
On 19 February 1954 Crimea was transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.
The region in 1220:
In 1600:
In 1751:
And in March 1932:
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It is being reported tonight that armed men in Russian military uniforms have seized an airport in the capital of Ukraine's strategic Crimea region early Friday.
50 or so men were wearing the same gear as the ones who seized government buildings in the city, Simferopol, on Thursday and raised the Russian flag.
The Russians do seem to be after the Crimea.
Bob C
50 or so men were wearing the same gear as the ones who seized government buildings in the city, Simferopol, on Thursday and raised the Russian flag.
The Russians do seem to be after the Crimea.
Bob C
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Along with United States and Great Britain, Russia is signatory to the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, which commits all three to “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine” and to “refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.”
It appears that Russia has already violated both those commitments. The only question now is how far Putin is prepared to go.
Bob C
It appears that Russia has already violated both those commitments. The only question now is how far Putin is prepared to go.
Bob C