Ukraine Crisis 2014
The reports of 'armed men in Russian uniform' is telling. Sounds to me like The black sea fleet stores have been opened up to a pro russian Ukrainian group in the Crimea. I think if they were Russian armed forces, they'd say so?
They seem to be using the same tactic as they used in Georgia i.e. what appear to be irregulars with no insignia. Deniability and all that.
A headline on RT did raise a wry smile this AM, something along the lines of "Armed men search airport for troops from Kiev". Surely this is the wrong way around?
A headline on RT did raise a wry smile this AM, something along the lines of "Armed men search airport for troops from Kiev". Surely this is the wrong way around?
awblain - Thanks - on checking library pictures I'd agree - Candid and Foxhounds. Thanks to others too. Of course the F4 had a retractable refuelling probe as well - on the starboard side IIRC.
Back to Ukrainian politics!
Back to Ukrainian politics!
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Well the west stood by and let him walk over Georgia so he knows they will not do anything, surprised that Ukraine didn't shut their airspace over the Crimea and warn any incursions would be fired at.
And of course they will be using the fact they have the ousted President to justify it all.
And of course they will be using the fact they have the ousted President to justify it all.
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Ukraine may be believing that the US and NATO will honor the treaty from 1994 guaranteeing Ukraine's territorial integrity. Good luck with that, guys. There is no way that any NATO country or the US will confront Russian troops in the Ukraine, or anywhere else for that matter. Putin will show that he has a free hand to act in his own backyard which means the sovereignty and independence of former Soviet republics is now an open question.
How much of Ukraine will Russia seek to bite off? Perhaps only the Crimea, although they may push for more autonomy for their ethnic cousins in the east. It's Putin who is driving this crisis now and no one appears to want to stop anything he may have planned.
In a few weeks at most, East Ukraine and the Crimea will be wholly-owned by Russia, and there isn't a damned thing anyone can do about it.
Bob C
How much of Ukraine will Russia seek to bite off? Perhaps only the Crimea, although they may push for more autonomy for their ethnic cousins in the east. It's Putin who is driving this crisis now and no one appears to want to stop anything he may have planned.
In a few weeks at most, East Ukraine and the Crimea will be wholly-owned by Russia, and there isn't a damned thing anyone can do about it.
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I doubt we will intervene, what will we gain versus what will we lose?
The Ukraine borders Russia and was once part of the USSR, hence they view it as within their sphere of influence. The Ukraine is nigh on broke and close to defaulting on its debt without Russian loans, will the EU or US fund them, of course not. The US can barely keep the US government going without raising its debt ceiling (again) and the EU(Germany) is sick of bailing out countries (Ireland, Portugal, Greece). The IMF could do, however will the IMF get its money back if the Ukraine is broken up and a large part of it ends up in the Russian federation? Plus the EU gas pipe lines run through Russia and the Ukraine and its winter. Hence in so many ways we can't afford to intervene, whereas Russia has the money, means (military) and motivation (ethnic Russian population in the Ukraine). It may end up at the UN, so what Russia will veto any resolution it doesn't like, just like we do. Russia has already won.
The Ukraine borders Russia and was once part of the USSR, hence they view it as within their sphere of influence. The Ukraine is nigh on broke and close to defaulting on its debt without Russian loans, will the EU or US fund them, of course not. The US can barely keep the US government going without raising its debt ceiling (again) and the EU(Germany) is sick of bailing out countries (Ireland, Portugal, Greece). The IMF could do, however will the IMF get its money back if the Ukraine is broken up and a large part of it ends up in the Russian federation? Plus the EU gas pipe lines run through Russia and the Ukraine and its winter. Hence in so many ways we can't afford to intervene, whereas Russia has the money, means (military) and motivation (ethnic Russian population in the Ukraine). It may end up at the UN, so what Russia will veto any resolution it doesn't like, just like we do. Russia has already won.
Ok, let's assume this becomes an occupation and Crimea and the Eastern Oblasts then cede to Russia and the West do nothing about it (and let's face it, the UNSC will do nothing about it, because of the Russian P5 veto). What happens next? What other areas will Tsar Putin decide should become part of Mother Russia?
I'm not being a apologist nor a war-monger, but Putin should be reminded of the Treaty that underpins the sovereignty of Ukraine. Force might be needed to reinforce this.
I'm not being a apologist nor a war-monger, but Putin should be reminded of the Treaty that underpins the sovereignty of Ukraine. Force might be needed to reinforce this.
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If it's good enough for Scotland…
If a majority of the occupants of eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia, is an odd treaty from the early 90s really valid to stop them expressing their natural freedom of self determination?
I don't think it's a question of Putin forcing, but of the locals wanting. If the destruction of Grozny's going to be ignored, then a few boundary changes should probably be ignored too.
If a majority of the occupants of eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia, is an odd treaty from the early 90s really valid to stop them expressing their natural freedom of self determination?
I don't think it's a question of Putin forcing, but of the locals wanting. If the destruction of Grozny's going to be ignored, then a few boundary changes should probably be ignored too.
New and conflicting details emerge over Mogilevich?s alleged involvement in nation
Cable reference id: #06KIEV1531
Ukraines Interim President is such a paragon of virtue as the above shows...............
Cable reference id: #06KIEV1531
Ukraines Interim President is such a paragon of virtue as the above shows...............
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UK media woke up again...
C4 and BBC woke up again and covered the story today.
Thankfully the British people also are awake and perhaps more savvy, indifferent and callous, war weary than once they were.
Leave well alone and stay out.
Watching BBC 2 news just now they reported some young chaps in the west of Ukraine have a nice line in Nazi memorabilia.....Putins going to eat them alive.
Thankfully the British people also are awake and perhaps more savvy, indifferent and callous, war weary than once they were.
Leave well alone and stay out.
Watching BBC 2 news just now they reported some young chaps in the west of Ukraine have a nice line in Nazi memorabilia.....Putins going to eat them alive.
As always in these conflicts the Western media rush to decide who are the goodies and who are the baddies.
Thus it was nice Bosnians and naughty Serbs, naughty President Assad and nice Syrian freedom fighters and now it seems it's naughty Russians and nice Ukrainians (unless they speak Russian of course).
Of course the position is always a lot less clear, and some of the groups moving in to fill the power vacuum in Kiev are decidedly dodgy, as referred to by hangarshuffle. One of the guys in the news item was identifying "Russians, Jews and Poles" as groups with undue economic influence in the Ukraine.
Anyone want us to go to war to put someone like that in power? I pray we stay well away from this one.
Thus it was nice Bosnians and naughty Serbs, naughty President Assad and nice Syrian freedom fighters and now it seems it's naughty Russians and nice Ukrainians (unless they speak Russian of course).
Of course the position is always a lot less clear, and some of the groups moving in to fill the power vacuum in Kiev are decidedly dodgy, as referred to by hangarshuffle. One of the guys in the news item was identifying "Russians, Jews and Poles" as groups with undue economic influence in the Ukraine.
Anyone want us to go to war to put someone like that in power? I pray we stay well away from this one.
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Superb footage of the helos
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This has all be very peaceful so far, not a shot fired.
Putin was right to stick up for the legitimate President of Ukraine and to protect the people of the Crimea.
The west should keeps its nose out of things which do not concern it. Especially so in this case!!!!
??????? ????????? ? ????? (?. ????????) - YouTube
This has all be very peaceful so far, not a shot fired.
Putin was right to stick up for the legitimate President of Ukraine and to protect the people of the Crimea.
The west should keeps its nose out of things which do not concern it. Especially so in this case!!!!
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Surely the longer the Ukraine leaves this, the less chance they have of responding or getting their territory back, they should have forcible retook the Government buildings before this escalated, that would have sent the signal that you are not simply going to walk into our Country. Though one can understand how this has happened with the Government in turmoil as it is at the moment.
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NutLoose, it seems most of the locals want this. Not a shot was fired against the Russians. I even saw footage of local police walking past them.
At the end of the day considering how those people took power in Kiev, simply by taking it through force, they cannot really in moral terms say much to Russia now. Arguably Yanukovych could still be the legitimate President. If he were at some point in the coming days to formally request Russian military support Russia could say they are acting on behalf of the legitimate President who is asking for assistance! Then within the Ukraine it would come down to who backs who!
At the end of the day considering how those people took power in Kiev, simply by taking it through force, they cannot really in moral terms say much to Russia now. Arguably Yanukovych could still be the legitimate President. If he were at some point in the coming days to formally request Russian military support Russia could say they are acting on behalf of the legitimate President who is asking for assistance! Then within the Ukraine it would come down to who backs who!
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The west should keeps its nose out of things which do not concern it. Especially so in this case!!!!
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NutLoose, it seems most of the locals want this. Not a shot was fired against the Russians. I even saw footage of local police walking past them.
At the end of the day considering how those people took power in Kiev, simply by taking it through force, they cannot really in moral terms say much to Russia now. Arguably Yanukovych could still be the legitimate President. If he were at some point in the coming days to formally request Russian military support Russia could say they are acting on behalf of the legitimate President who is asking for assistance! Then within the Ukraine it would come down to who backs who!
At the end of the day considering how those people took power in Kiev, simply by taking it through force, they cannot really in moral terms say much to Russia now. Arguably Yanukovych could still be the legitimate President. If he were at some point in the coming days to formally request Russian military support Russia could say they are acting on behalf of the legitimate President who is asking for assistance! Then within the Ukraine it would come down to who backs who!
As for the legitimacy of the ousted a President, well it was their Parliament that voted him out, not the protestors, and they represent the electorate.
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Irrespective of the rights or wrongs of these developments, and the questions of What Should Be Done about it, and What Can Be Done about it, and what is Advisable To Be Done about it, and Where The Balance of Advantage Lies, there rests one little question:
Who'll Bell the Cat ?
Who'll Bell the Cat ?